Folded optics can be better than Fuji P&S lens

kcwan · Mar 28, 2007

copes better than my Canon 350D 17-85mm + Canon S45! - and from what I've seen better than previous F series?

if not quite as good as the T10 - possibly due to the proximity of the lens to the sensor?

Original size image from camera of this challenging situation
http://wan.st/public/2007_0327_082824.JPG

The duck photo from the T10 is impressive straight from camera.

Jared Hunter · Mar 28, 2007

Cubensis said:
Your photo certainly has CA in it...

Re-read my original post. I never said it didn't.

Cubensis said:
A CRT should not be soft at pixel
level - if you are finding your is then you might want to replace
it.

It is soft in terms of less apparent edge enhancement than LCD. This is just the nature of the technologies. This is very obvious when you view an image simultaneously across a CRT and LCD with a dual monitor setup.

Cubensis said:
A CRT is much more accurate in regards to color,
have better refresh rates, and are preffered to LCD's when printing
or editing photos. The only tangible advantage of LCD's are size
and weight - neither of which are applicable to photo editing and
will not benefit the appearance of folded optics.

Trying to compare refresh rates between a CRT and LCD is non-sensical. If you can't get the fundamentals straight....

Anyways, as promised here are some 100% crops of the entire top portion of some Fuji images. After tolerating fringing from so many Fuji cameras, I no longer feel the need to reward Fuji with my business until they take CA seriously. The corners need help as well.

http://i.pbase.com/o6/97/760797/1/76325867.y8LVgRnL.sDSCF0003.jpg
http://i.pbase.com/o6/97/760797/1/76325868.EOrc75JN.sDSCF0194.jpg
http://i.pbase.com/o6/97/760797/1/76325869.kG30cWyK.sDSCF0272.jpg

(the last one has the typical Fuji green sky)

Cubensis said:
Jared Hunter said:

Cubensis said:

Lens flare doesn't require monitor calibration to recognize (and
I'm looking at a CRT by the way, are you?)

Click to expand...

I'm using a a dual monitor setup: a Sony Trinitron 19" CRT and a
Samsung LCD 22". I have found that the CRT does tend to soften
images and hide pixel-level flaws compared to the LCD. Just having
horizontal or vertical convergence miscalibrated on a CRT can throw
off the appearance of sharpness and give a false impression of CA
when none exists.

Click to expand...

--
Fuji A310, F10, & F30

tbcass · Mar 29, 2007

Am I missing something? Those backlit images have a ton of purple fringing and look terrible. The rest are good though.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

tbcass · Mar 29, 2007

Ultra fast lenses are prone to CA as are zooms.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

tbcass · Mar 29, 2007

I agree with you. That example was not impressive at all.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

tbcass · Mar 29, 2007

Jared Hunter said:
Cubensis said:

Lens flare doesn't require monitor calibration to recognize (and
I'm looking at a CRT by the way, are you?)

Click to expand...

I'm using a a dual monitor setup: a Sony Trinitron 19" CRT and a
Samsung LCD 22". I have found that the CRT does tend to soften
images and hide pixel-level flaws compared to the LCD. Just having
horizontal or vertical convergence miscalibrated on a CRT can throw
off the appearance of sharpness and give a false impression of CA
when none exists.

In extreme cases but a monitor misscalibrated that badly would make everything look bad and text unreadable. Your sample looked bad to me. Very bad lens.

--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

tbcass · Mar 29, 2007

Jared Hunter said:
I agree that the Sony is oversaturated, BUT only on the default
color setting. When I set the T10 to 'Natural' color, it truly does
produce very neutral saturation, far better than the greenish skies
typical of my Fuji cameras.

Like these "greenish" skys from my s9000

On certain RARE occasions I do get a greenish look but it happens RARELY. 95%+ of the time the sky looks natural. Certainly not "typical" as you attest. Sorry but you're completely wrong about Fuji cameras. Maybe you don't know how to use them properly.

--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

saulukas · Mar 29, 2007

Jared Hunter said:
Jared Hunter said:

(the last one has the typical Fuji green sky)

Click to expand...

me being fuji addict still agree with you - constant problems with fuji sky on sunny days. i would not call the color of sky in your pictures green but cyan instead (same in mine from f700 or 4900).

any time i see cyan sky in a picture i just want to curse quietly! it is becoming a "trademark" of fuji cameras. other brands have similar problem occurring 10 times less often. of course there is cyan in sunny skies especially closer to horizon but not that much. may be ill find a way to give it a bit more blue one day...

AndyHWC · Mar 29, 2007

Andy, you are not alone. I have used to the Fuji Blue, Canon Yellow but never heard of Fuji "Green".

Another Andy
F30

Soundman 500 · Mar 29, 2007

I wish I could understand what everyone is talking about. Purple fringing, green skies. This was taken with a $150 camera. Only purple here is lens flare from the sun. Sky is blue.
I just don't get it.....

Cubensis · Mar 29, 2007

Try to play a high FPS game on most LCD's - you'll understand what I mean about refresh rates... Google "LCD ghosting" if you need more info. Edge enhancement on an LCD has nothing to do with image quality out of camera x versus camera y.

Additionally, you are comparing a new camera (that apparently has some programming for PF removal) to two cameras that are nearly 2 and 3 years old respectively. In this comparison however, both of the Fuji's show better sharpness and much less lens flare then the folded optics of the Sony - though your E900 has some super soft corners.

Jared Hunter said:
Cubensis said:

Your photo certainly has CA in it...

Click to expand...

Re-read my original post. I never said it didn't.

Jared Hunter said:

A CRT should not be soft at pixel
level - if you are finding your is then you might want to replace
it.

Click to expand...

It is soft in terms of less apparent edge enhancement than LCD.
This is just the nature of the technologies. This is very obvious
when you view an image simultaneously across a CRT and LCD with a
dual monitor setup.

Jared Hunter said:

A CRT is much more accurate in regards to color,
have better refresh rates, and are preffered to LCD's when printing
or editing photos. The only tangible advantage of LCD's are size
and weight - neither of which are applicable to photo editing and
will not benefit the appearance of folded optics.

Click to expand...

Trying to compare refresh rates between a CRT and LCD is
non-sensical. If you can't get the fundamentals straight....

Anyways, as promised here are some 100% crops of the entire top
portion of some Fuji images. After tolerating fringing from so many
Fuji cameras, I no longer feel the need to reward Fuji with my
business until they take CA seriously. The corners need help as
well.

http://i.pbase.com/o6/97/760797/1/76325867.y8LVgRnL.sDSCF0003.jpg
http://i.pbase.com/o6/97/760797/1/76325868.EOrc75JN.sDSCF0194.jpg
http://i.pbase.com/o6/97/760797/1/76325869.kG30cWyK.sDSCF0272.jpg

(the last one has the typical Fuji green sky)

Jared Hunter said:

Jared Hunter said:

Cubensis said:

Lens flare doesn't require monitor calibration to recognize (and
I'm looking at a CRT by the way, are you?)

Click to expand...

I'm using a a dual monitor setup: a Sony Trinitron 19" CRT and a
Samsung LCD 22". I have found that the CRT does tend to soften
images and hide pixel-level flaws compared to the LCD. Just having
horizontal or vertical convergence miscalibrated on a CRT can throw
off the appearance of sharpness and give a false impression of CA
when none exists.

Click to expand...

--
Fuji A310, F10, & F30

Click to expand...

--
Fuji A310, F10, & F30

tjdean01 · Mar 29, 2007

The Sony pictures do look very nice! I'd like to see a few of them at 7 MP. And, I see your saying that the Sony is better quality that some Fuji you have. Well, I'll take your word for it. But, I would think that a normal Sony lens would be better than the folded one, wouldn't you?

tbcass · Mar 29, 2007

saulukas said:
Jared Hunter said:

saulukas said:

(the last one has the typical Fuji green sky)

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

me being fuji addict still agree with you - constant problems with
fuji sky on sunny days. i would not call the color of sky in your
pictures green but cyan instead (same in mine from f700 or 4900).

any time i see cyan sky in a picture i just want to curse quietly!
it is becoming a "trademark" of fuji cameras. other brands have
similar problem occurring 10 times less often. of course there is
cyan in sunny skies especially closer to horizon but not that much.
may be ill find a way to give it a bit more blue one day...

I don't know what your talking about!. Click on the link below and tell me if you see any Cyan skys.

--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

Mike920 · Mar 29, 2007

Hey Tom,

Beautiful photos. Blue Mountain is in my hometown. Did many fishing trips up there in my youth.

Best regards,
Mike

Mike920 · Mar 29, 2007

What was your white balance set for?

Mike

PS - I have an F30 and have shot it in almost all, but the scene modes and have never come up with a "Fuji green sky". I also use auto WB most of the time.

Jared Hunter · Mar 29, 2007

Mike920 said:
What was your white balance set for?

Mike

PS - I have an F30 and have shot it in almost all, but the scene
modes and have never come up with a "Fuji green sky". I also use
auto WB most of the time.

Jared Hunter · Mar 29, 2007

tjdean01 said:
The Sony pictures do look very nice! I'd like to see a few of them
at 7 MP. And, I see your saying that the Sony is better quality
that some Fuji you have. Well, I'll take your word for it. But, I
would think that a normal Sony lens would be better than the folded
one, wouldn't you?

Some 7mp originals from the camera are here:
http://i.pbase.com/o6/97/760797/1/76280031.wceiD2Ba.DSC00285.JPG
http://i.pbase.com/o6/97/760797/1/76280055.dD9JxaI2.DSC00311.JPG

I'm not saying that 'Sony' is better but rather a folded optics lens CAN be better than a conventional Fuji lens. I am not making any other claims on comparative quality. Also, I have never claimed that the Sony folded lens has no CA.

The point of my post is not to dismiss folded optics regardless of brand. Perhaps the Fuji Z series is a good performer as well.

Here's an example of a Fuji non-folded lens vs Folded lens:

(These are 100% crops from the top left corner)

Mike920 · Mar 29, 2007

Thank you Jareb. However, you still not answer my question.

Mike

Jared Hunter said:
Mike920 said:

What was your white balance set for?

Mike

PS - I have an F30 and have shot it in almost all, but the scene
modes and have never come up with a "Fuji green sky". I also use
auto WB most of the time.

Click to expand...

Perhaps a more precise definition is "skies that are shifted
towards a green hue"

It doesn't happen all the time, but after over 10,000 Fuji shots,
it becomes tiresome.

Random examples (not mine):

http://www.pbase.com/jejphotobug/image/71089017
http://www.pbase.com/jasonmaher/image/71494369
http://www.pbase.com/image/71494352
http://www.pbase.com/image/68999757
http://www.pbase.com/image/73114619
http://www.pbase.com/image/55270372
http://www.pbase.com/jejphotobug/image/71089010
http://www.pbase.com/jejphotobug/image/70813082
http://www.pbase.com/bhill94087/image/68999759
http://www.pbase.com/meltingsmile/image/68019092
http://www.pbase.com/tonygant/image/74347199
http://www.pbase.com/image/60259743
http://www.pbase.com/image/69589551
http://www.pbase.com/image/65191514
http://www.pbase.com/image/74053423
http://www.pbase.com/image/63682628
http://www.pbase.com/image/66752448

Jared Hunter · Mar 29, 2007

Cubensis said:
Try to play a high FPS game on most LCD's - you'll understand what
I mean about refresh rates... Google "LCD ghosting" if you need
more info.

Wow, are you ever out of date and living on past assumptions. Some real old news from 2004: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=18269

Cubensis said:
Edge enhancement on an LCD has nothing to do with image
quality out of camera x versus camera y.

Do you even own an up to date LCD?

Cubensis said:
Additionally, you are comparing a new camera (that apparently has
some programming for PF removal) to two cameras that are nearly 2
and 3 years old respectively. In this comparison however, both of
the Fuji's show better sharpness and much less lens flare then the
folded optics of the Sony - though your E900 has some super soft
corners.

Nice try. If I already stated that the Sony shot was over-exposed, why are you quoting it as an example of flare? Properly exposed, the Sony has no more flare than the Fuji:

Cubensis said:
Jared Hunter said:

Cubensis said:

Your photo certainly has CA in it...

Click to expand...

Re-read my original post. I never said it didn't.

Cubensis said:

A CRT should not be soft at pixel
level - if you are finding your is then you might want to replace
it.

Click to expand...

It is soft in terms of less apparent edge enhancement than LCD.
This is just the nature of the technologies. This is very obvious
when you view an image simultaneously across a CRT and LCD with a
dual monitor setup.

Cubensis said:

A CRT is much more accurate in regards to color,
have better refresh rates, and are preffered to LCD's when printing
or editing photos. The only tangible advantage of LCD's are size
and weight - neither of which are applicable to photo editing and
will not benefit the appearance of folded optics.

Click to expand...

Trying to compare refresh rates between a CRT and LCD is
non-sensical. If you can't get the fundamentals straight....

Anyways, as promised here are some 100% crops of the entire top
portion of some Fuji images. After tolerating fringing from so many
Fuji cameras, I no longer feel the need to reward Fuji with my
business until they take CA seriously. The corners need help as
well.

http://i.pbase.com/o6/97/760797/1/76325867.y8LVgRnL.sDSCF0003.jpg
http://i.pbase.com/o6/97/760797/1/76325868.EOrc75JN.sDSCF0194.jpg
http://i.pbase.com/o6/97/760797/1/76325869.kG30cWyK.sDSCF0272.jpg

(the last one has the typical Fuji green sky)

Cubensis said:

Jared Hunter said:

Cubensis said:

Lens flare doesn't require monitor calibration to recognize (and
I'm looking at a CRT by the way, are you?)

Click to expand...

I'm using a a dual monitor setup: a Sony Trinitron 19" CRT and a
Samsung LCD 22". I have found that the CRT does tend to soften
images and hide pixel-level flaws compared to the LCD. Just having
horizontal or vertical convergence miscalibrated on a CRT can throw
off the appearance of sharpness and give a false impression of CA
when none exists.

Click to expand...

--
Fuji A310, F10, & F30

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Fuji A310, F10, & F30

Mike920 · Mar 29, 2007

Until I see a definitive test on this forum, this is all hokum. Your samples are not the same, nor taken under the same conditions. You can "spout" all you want about folded optics vs straight through, but until I see it under lab conditions in a test environment, folded vs straight through will never convince me and many others that a folded optic system will out perform a proven straight through lens system.

Nice try though.

Mike

Folded optics can be better than Fuji P&S lens

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