Depth of field woes

Hmm... well... I have a seemingly simple assignment: shoot portraits, both indoors and out, using both smallest and largest aperture.

Cut to the chase: I can't seem to get shallow depth of field when on f2.8... I want to shoot the portrait 6 feet or so from the vict.... erm, person... but when I do everything is in focus.

Seems the best way to get the effect I'm looking for is to be at maximum zoom and f3.x (I forget exactly). But I need more! I don't want to have to stand 15 feet from my model. Maybe I have no choice?

I have no problem doing this with my N80 - now, I realize this is not my N80, but it seems the principles would be the same.

How close should I be to my subject? Or, maybe I should ask:

What are optimal settings with the D7 to shoot portraits while blurring the heck out of the background?

Whew! Thanks,
Andrew

Turner said:

I have no problem doing this with my N80 - now, I realize this is
not my N80, but it seems the principles would be the same.

Click to expand...

The principles are the same but consumer level digicams use
a small CCD and the even the 35mm equivalent '200mm' end
of the lens is something like 50mm in reality. The DOF is based
on the aperture + the real focal length.

Try shooting with your N80 and a 7mm to 50mm lens at F2.8
and you'd see the same thing.

Solutions? Apart from getting a Nikon D1x or managing to get
control over your camera to subject to background distances
you might consider cheating with suitable clear centre spot filter.

Of course there's always Photoshop!
-----------------Andrew.

Turner said:

Hmm... well... I have a seemingly simple assignment: shoot
portraits, both indoors and out, using both smallest and largest
aperture.
Cut to the chase: I can't seem to get shallow depth of field when
on f2.8... I want to shoot the portrait 6 feet or so from the
vict.... erm, person... but when I do everything is in focus.
Seems the best way to get the effect I'm looking for is to be at
maximum zoom and f3.x (I forget exactly). But I need more! I don't
want to have to stand 15 feet from my model. Maybe I have no choice?
I have no problem doing this with my N80 - now, I realize this is
not my N80, but it seems the principles would be the same.
How close should I be to my subject? Or, maybe I should ask:
What are optimal settings with the D7 to shoot portraits while
blurring the heck out of the background?
Whew! Thanks,
Andrew

Click to expand...

Andrew, same problem here. Truth is that the DOF of digital cameras is far different than that of film cameras mainly due to the diffrent size betwewen film and CCD.

There are times where I want to achieve the same effect, but I simply can't. I have come to the conclusion that you get the maximum blur-effect when all four are true:

1) Shoot at as longer end of the zoom lens as possible
2) Shoot at much wider aperture as possible

3) When the distance between foreground (fg) and background (bg) is as great as possible.....

4) .....with the foreground being in the very close focus area and the background being in the far focus area.

1) and 2) are prety obvious and I guess you already knew about those so I will stick to 3) and 4).

3) heavily depends on 4). That is, if the distance between fg and bg is, say, 10m, you will see more bluring if the fg object is at 2m from the camera and the bg at 12m. At longer zoom, the difference between 2m and 12m is big.

However, if two objects are still 10m apart, but with the fg being at 30m and the bg being at 40m, you will hardly notice any difference.

Of course, this applies for both when you want either the fg or bg in focus and the other out of focus.

All of the above are very obvious when shooting at macro mode, but of course this is not the best method for shooting portraits. If you come up with anything else please let me know, as I would be very interested.

--Pablettowww.pbase.com/pabletto(samples taken with the MINOLTA DiMAGE 7)Last update 21 February 2002 (3 new galleries added)

Uh-oh!

(I have to do the work in-camera for now... but I've been using Photoshop for a long time, and, well,.... after the instructor is satisfied with my EXIF information, well... I'm gonna whip some files into shape!

Andrew

Andrew Cruickshank said:

Turner said:

I have no problem doing this with my N80 - now, I realize this is
not my N80, but it seems the principles would be the same.

Click to expand...

The principles are the same but consumer level digicams use
a small CCD and the even the 35mm equivalent '200mm' end
of the lens is something like 50mm in reality. The DOF is based
on the aperture + the real focal length.

Try shooting with your N80 and a 7mm to 50mm lens at F2.8
and you'd see the same thing.

Solutions? Apart from getting a Nikon D1x or managing to get
control over your camera to subject to background distances
you might consider cheating with suitable clear centre spot filter.

Of course there's always Photoshop!

--
---------------
Andrew.

Click to expand...

Thanks Pabletto -

Yes, I was experimenting in out kitchen this morning and found that max zoom + max aperture + big background distance = narrow depth effect.

I'm taking pictures of the neighbor's kids today and want to make sure I'm set up right, but I'll be shooting some outdoors, so I can get 15 feet away from them and 100 + yards to the background..

Last night I was taking some pictures of a friend and found I could get reasonable results... the distance to the hanging lamp is about 10 feet and the distance to Robert was about 4 feet.

Turner said:

Hmm... well... I have a seemingly simple assignment: shoot
portraits, both indoors and out, using both smallest and largest
aperture.

Cut to the chase: I can't seem to get shallow depth of field when
on f2.8... I want to shoot the portrait 6 feet or so from the
vict.... erm, person... but when I do everything is in focus.

Seems the best way to get the effect I'm looking for is to be at
maximum zoom and f3.x (I forget exactly). But I need more! I don't
want to have to stand 15 feet from my model. Maybe I have no choice?

I have no problem doing this with my N80 - now, I realize this is
not my N80, but it seems the principles would be the same.

How close should I be to my subject? Or, maybe I should ask:

What are optimal settings with the D7 to shoot portraits while
blurring the heck out of the background?

Whew! Thanks,
Andrew

Click to expand...

Hi Andrew

As everyone as already pointed out this is a problem with digital photography.

I have recently taken a large number of portaits ( not very good one's ). I achieved the out of focus background by making my own backdrop and placing it several metre's behind the subject. If you do not have the space indoors try using a neutral coloured drape with soft folds as your backdrop.

outdoors should'nt be to much of a problem, just keep as much distance as possible between your subject and the backdrop.
I use my D7 at full zoom and ful aperture when taking portraits.

I realize the above is not really an answer to your problem, but I prefer my D7 with this limitation to my old Canon EOS

Turner-

It's often just a matter of walking around the subject til you find the angle that gives you the greatest distance to the background, and the least distracting background, then really fill the frame by moving in close. Here's an example - not perfect, but illustrative:



Steven
D7, C2100, S300

Steven Sterne said:

Turner-

It's often just a matter of walking around the subject til you find
the angle that gives you the greatest distance to the background,
and the least distracting background, then really fill the frame by
moving in close. Here's an example - not perfect, but illustrative:



Steven
D7, C2100, S300

Click to expand...

Steven, any EXIF data fot the photo? Can you also let us know for any post-processing? It looks like the girl and its clothing is very sharp indeed. What sharpening level are you using in-camera?

Thanks--Pablettowww.pbase.com/pabletto(samples taken with the MINOLTA DiMAGE 7)Last update 21 February 2002 (3 new galleries added)

Pabletto:

Here is the data, courtesy of iView Media Pro:

27mm
1/512th sec
F/3.4
Aperture priority, spot metering

I always use the "soft" setting in the camera, and this pictures was overall rather soft. In post-processing, I used iCorrect Lab for color and nikSharpener Pro Internet for sharpening. In getting the facial features sharp, i may have oversharpened the clothes - what do you think?

Steven
D7, C2100, S300

Try manual focus -- start with the focus set as close to the camera as possible and ease it out until the victim just begins to come into focus. You may have to settle for a slightly soft subject to get the background as out of focus as you want, but portraits are SUPPOSED to be soft.

A teleconverter will severely decrease your depth of field. If you can find and afford one, the Olympus A-200 is perfect for this application.

Jim

Thanks Jim, great info.

I'll look into that Olympus.

Andrew

Jim A Hunt said:

Try manual focus -- start with the focus set as close to the camera
as possible and ease it out until the victim just begins to come
into focus. You may have to settle for a slightly soft subject to
get the background as out of focus as you want, but portraits are
SUPPOSED to be soft.

A teleconverter will severely decrease your depth of field. If you
can find and afford one, the Olympus A-200 is perfect for this
application.

Jim

Click to expand...

This is going to sound really stupid [I just got a D7, before this I've only had point and shoot cameras, so please if this suggestion is really stupid please bear with me, I'm new to this] - but I've been fidgeting with alot of the manual settings for the same reason, the closest I can find to getting the results that I've wanted was to just use the portrait mode on the camera and they seem to come pretty close.

[see example]



-Mike

Turner said:

Hmm... well... I have a seemingly simple assignment: shoot
portraits, both indoors and out, using both smallest and largest
aperture.

Cut to the chase: I can't seem to get shallow depth of field when
on f2.8... I want to shoot the portrait 6 feet or so from the
vict.... erm, person... but when I do everything is in focus.

Seems the best way to get the effect I'm looking for is to be at
maximum zoom and f3.x (I forget exactly). But I need more! I don't
want to have to stand 15 feet from my model. Maybe I have no choice?

I have no problem doing this with my N80 - now, I realize this is
not my N80, but it seems the principles would be the same.

How close should I be to my subject? Or, maybe I should ask:

What are optimal settings with the D7 to shoot portraits while
blurring the heck out of the background?

Whew! Thanks,
Andrew

Click to expand...

Andrew...do the best you can, then impress the instructor/professor(?) with your 'superior' knowledge of digital vs conventional film photography in a small paper. Discuss the 'improved' DOF of the digital, with small discussion of why. Except for the special effects we sometimes desire, the enhanced DOF of the digital is a real plus.--Mr Pedagogue - Win XP Pro, D7, PSP7

Maybe, instead, I'll send him "your" way to make him aware of the "connections" I have and "subdue" him into sliding me to the high side of his grading "curve".

He may let me "skip" the rest of the classes just based on your "comments" alone.

"Thanks".

John C. Iliff said:

Andrew...do the best you can, then impress the
instructor/professor(?) with your 'superior' knowledge of digital
vs conventional film photography in a small paper. Discuss the
'improved' DOF of the digital, with small discussion of why. Except
for the special effects we sometimes desire, the enhanced DOF of
the digital is a real plus.
--
Mr Pedagogue - Win XP Pro, D7, PSP7

Click to expand...

Steven Sterne said:

Pabletto:

Here is the data, courtesy of iView Media Pro:

27mm
1/512th sec
F/3.4
Aperture priority, spot metering

I always use the "soft" setting in the camera, and this pictures
was overall rather soft. In post-processing, I used iCorrect Lab
for color and nikSharpener Pro Internet for sharpening. In getting
the facial features sharp, i may have oversharpened the clothes -
what do you think?

Steven
D7, C2100, S300

Click to expand...

Steven,

thanks for the info. You photo is really good, need I say about the kid's expression?

Your method although relatively long, seems to produce very good results so I guess it must be worth the hassle. Can you please let me know of the links where I can find those applications?
Keep shooting (I am) ;-)

Thanks.

--Pablettowww.pbase.com/pabletto(samples taken with the MINOLTA DiMAGE 7)Last update 25 February 2002 (Lots of food photos added)

Michael Jee said:

This is going to sound really stupid [I just got a D7, before this
I've only had point and shoot cameras, so please if this suggestion
is really stupid please bear with me, I'm new to this] - but I've
been fidgeting with alot of the manual settings for the same
reason, the closest I can find to getting the results that I've
wanted was to just use the portrait mode on the camera and they
seem to come pretty close.

[see example]



-Mike

Click to expand...

Mike, I think your background is way too blurred, which is good for portrait photos. How did you manage? Did you use any other teleconverters?
Or PhotoShop post-processing?

--Pablettowww.pbase.com/pabletto(samples taken with the MINOLTA DiMAGE 7)Last update 25 February 2002 (Lots of food photos added)

Pabletto, oddly enough this is just straight from the camera with the standard lens just in the point and shoot portrait mode, the only modification I did in photoshop was to resize the image for viewing. I've tried to achieve a deeper DOF using manual settings, but I can't seem to get it that way.

-Mike

Pabletto said:

Michael Jee said:

This is going to sound really stupid [I just got a D7, before this
I've only had point and shoot cameras, so please if this suggestion
is really stupid please bear with me, I'm new to this] - but I've
been fidgeting with alot of the manual settings for the same
reason, the closest I can find to getting the results that I've
wanted was to just use the portrait mode on the camera and they
seem to come pretty close.

[see example]



-Mike

Click to expand...

Mike, I think your background is way too blurred, which is good for
portrait photos. How did you manage? Did you use any other
teleconverters?
Or PhotoShop post-processing?

--
Pabletto

http://www.pbase.com/pabletto
(samples taken with the MINOLTA DiMAGE 7)
Last update 25 February 2002 (Lots of food photos added)

Click to expand...

iCorrect Pro:
http://www.picto.com/

nikSharener Pro:
http://www.tech-nik.com/english/sharpener.html

Thanks for the kind words. My daughter is a kick in the pants. If you have time, see more at http://www.pair.com/sterne . My son is there, too.

Steven
D7, C2100, S300

Michael Jee said:

Pabletto, oddly enough this is just straight from the camera with
the standard lens just in the point and shoot portrait mode, the
only modification I did in photoshop was to resize the image for
viewing. I've tried to achieve a deeper DOF using manual settings,
but I can't seem to get it that way.

-Mike

Click to expand...

Do you think that the Portrait programme may be doing anything 'special'. I remember someone else also mentioning not being able to achieve the restults they got with portrait programme mode. Hmmmm.....
I guess I'll do some test photos of my own and see what happens.

--Pablettowww.pbase.com/pabletto(samples taken with the MINOLTA DiMAGE 7)Last update 26 February 2002 (MORE food photos)

One thing Michael's picture has going for it - the background is quite distant, and the model is quite close. Good way to set up portraits. Easier to get blurry background when there is that much diference.

I'm going to mess around with portrait mode, too. See if there is any difference.

Steven
D7, C2100, S300