Any Amateurs dream of becoming Pro

Mr. Kinnane,

In your own inimitable style, you simply have dismissed the comments of those who don't agree with you by closing them out.

Chris made some excellent points and his statistics are based on this thread and its responses. The math is not poor. It's probably realistic.

I congratulate you on your successful career. I've looked at your images and you do well. However, I haven't seen your images or your biography posted or highlighted on any web sites, other than your own, or in any printed media. I do see images and biographies of the one in a thousand in print media and highlighted on many, many web sites.

As you've already dismissed me in the past, I'd be very surprised if you respond. You've also dismissed some very capable photographers from your personal agenda as to those who agree and those who disagree.

--
Troll Whisperer

 
Yet you profess to know so much about the profession, and who is
and isn't happy in it? I don't know any neurosurgeons, either, so
by your logic, only 1 in 10,000 of them must be successful. Gee, I
hope none of us get brain tumors.

Like I suspected, just another of the knockers who can't do it,
attempting to stop somebody who would like to try, and by the sound
of his passion, will likely succeed.

But your math is poor. I in 10,000 professional photographers who
make a success of it? Come on now. You don't know any pros, so how
would you know? Three pros on this thread, all like their job, and
have made a success of it. That makes a 100% rate by my
calculations. Many people on here, who aren't pro photographers,
and know next to nothing about it. That makes a group of people,
like you, not qualified to judge. Sure, you are entitled to an
opinion, but it is an unqualified, and uninformed opinion. So I
wouldn't give it too much credibility.

Not much more point in this discussion between you and I then, is
there?

rayk
I know six more neurosurgeons than I do professional photographers (that would be 6 to zero), so thanks for furthering my point.

I'm one of the "knockers who can't do it" now? What an audacious comment, as if you know anything about me at all.

I have four children, but I know plenty of couples who have none and they advise against having any children all the time. Are these childless couples qualified to recommend not having children or are they knockers who just can't do it (pun intended). Sometimes it what people choose not to do that can generate the best advice.

I wish to point out that my original response was not posted to draw you or anyone else out of the woodwork for a debate or discussion. I was simply providing solicited advice to someone thinking of taking photography beyond a hobby. Considering that I have done the very same thing with a different hobby (that I was also passionate about) and regretted it, I felt and feel completely qualified to post my advice.

I agree with only your last statement above.

--

 
I often daydream about become I pro photographer, I can't wait to
get home from University to shoot, edit, and organize. Anyone else
feel this way?

Any pros out there? What is life like? Is it a hard go? Lifestyle?

Anyone out there go from amateur to pro? Any tips for starting up?
Do you need diplomas and such to get recognition?

Discuss
--
James Eye View
http://www.pbase.com/didwest
This thread you started is pretty interesting.

Daydreaming about it makes you feel good but gets you nowhere. If you're really passionate about it then go for it, there's always a way.

Nothing stops you for becoming a Pro, not other Pro's, not education, not even equipment. Stop the fear and don't listen to naysayers because they don't know what they are talking about. The only person who can determine if Professional Photography is for you...is YOU.

Each pro's path from amateur to professional are varied but there's only one thing that's common among pros....it takes guts to become one.

Why? Because you're on spotlight 100% of the time. If something goes wrong on a photo shoot, 100% of that burden falls on you. You can't blame the equipment, the assistant, the light, the subject. Only YOU.

That's why real pro's are paid handsomely.

First thing you should do...is sell yourself. Depending on what you want to shoot. Whether it's fine-art or portraiture or whatever. Make everybody aware of who you are, what you can do, and that you're good at it. Do this ALL the time and have fun while doing it. Maybe make a little bit of money but at this stage forget about the money.

You do this constantly, I have no doubt that opportunity will present itself.

How often I read in this forum that he/she was requested by friend/relative to shoot their wedding but didn't took the opportunity. Perhaps, professional photography is not their goal and contend just being a hobbiest but IMO this is just a sample of how of opportunities would sometime present itself.

In my own circle of friends and relatives, I'm now permanently percieved as the professional photographer or at least a good photographer.

A few days ago a friend of my relative asked me if I could shoot her pregnancy. Don't know her personally and pregnancy is kind of personal. Plus, I've never shoot pregnancy before. I didn't say No. Apprehensive? Sure, but that's just part of being a pro. I'm always apprehensive before any assignment anyway but the way I look at it, it's just another opportunity presenting itself but this time I'm getting paid for it.

Once you shoot a certain theme (product, wedding, commercial, etc..) it becomes a little bit easier the next time around but the challenge is always there. This is the time to perfect your style.

It's a career but it's fun and highly creative....almost addictive.

Cheers
 
I would imagine that what made, and continues to make computers
boring is concentrating on the equipment, rather than concentrating
on what you can do with it.

And that applies to cameras. Do you really think that if there were
only three camera manufacturers left, all photography would become
boring?

A little imagination required, I think, Mike.

rayk
Hmm...this sounds to me like it's coming from a knocker who just can't do it with computers (right back atcha, mate).

For the record, coming from someone who did have a career as a network engineer, it was not the equipment, the operating systems, or figuring out something creative to do with them that resulted in my disappointment with the industry -- it was the end-user. Whether the people were accountants, doctors, lawyers, photographers, housewives, graphic designers, etc. and all the way from the lowest level janitor to the highest level officer of the company, the majority of them were completely unknowledgeable about computers and their expectations of them were ridiculous.

Unfortunately, this did not stop them from insisting on using them as tools in their career field of choice. Just like photographers are expected to know their equipment before they use it for their profession, is it so much to ask someone to learn about their computer equipment before they use it for their profession?

This is hijacking the thread and soapboxing quite a bit, but that's one of the reason why it burns me up when I see some of the self-proclaimed "pros" on this forum reply to posts from amateur photographers with quipping or snipping retorts like, "Learn about your camera and then start taking pictures." These very same professional photographers are the type of people who would have me, a senior network engineer, stat-paged in the middle of the night because their computer was "running too slow". 99.9% of the time the problem was that the filled up their 20GB hard drive in their underequipped Apple computer (that they insisted on buying even though it was completely incompatible with our network) with 200 different shots of the exact same product because even though they have a digital camera they're still shooting with it like it was film (ie, not deleting the shots they're not going to use).

Meanwhile, that page took me away from the tedious task of reading the log from a "sniffer" trying to figure out why the entire accounting department is claiming the network is "dog-slow", only to later find out it's because some nit-wit junior accountant's secretary has a teenage son who has worked at BestBuy for a whopping two weeks, who decided in their infinite computer related wisdom to recommend the purchase of a network hublet for each accountants LAN connection, so that they can have five network connections in each office for group "brainstorming sessions" with notebook computers. Remove all the hublets and look at that -- the network is back up to speed, almost as if there's a science or at least a planning requirement to designing a proper network.

Oh, wait, look at that....I have voicemail from the VP of Marketing who declares that Microsoft Office sucks and his buddy "who works for a Fortune 500 company in California" says that they're all using Apple Newtons instead of PocketPCs, so he now wants to know why they can't use Newtons, too (even though they've been out of production for a decade). Meanwhile, I'm being accused of "holding back" their entire marketing team because Microsoft Outlook has some ridiculous "limitation" where it cannot sync 10,751,000 contacts with a PocketPC with 64mb of RAM.

It doesn't matter anyway because now I have to go home and patch things up with my high school aged son and daughter, because I just yelled at them when they called to tell me that they can't print their Biology report on our home printer for some reason. Yup, I get it at work, at home, and...

...oops! Bumped into the neighbor at the grocery store. What? Oh, yeah, your home computer isn't connecting to the internet ever since little Johnny downloaded all that pornography last week? Yeah. Oh, no -- not a problem at all. I just get paid $200/hour to do this for a living, but I'll just drop over to your house and fix the results of your son's porno-fetish on my own time (which I don't have) for absolutely free. By the way, if you ever get a brain tumor, just ask our neighbor the Neurosurgeon to pop it out of your head for free, too. Heck, he was probably just planning on playing golf that day anyway. Oh, and don't forget our other neighbor, Jayk, is a professional photographer. I'm sure he'll gladly take Christmas card photos of your entire extended family for free, too. I mean, be for real -- what does it take to point and click a frickin' camera, right?

It's the people. Not the equipment. Not the operating system. And trust me, in my career I've figured out plenty of clever things to do with a computer that just knock my socks off, but would bore the non-techies to absolute tears. That was the hobby part that I lost because every other part of the career was just one annoyance after another. And when the OP decides to make the big jump from amateur to pro, and has some bride's mother chewing on his ear during the entire bridal shoot, or some art director telling him that lettuce on that Ultimate Burger isn't properly lit to show it's fresh crispness, or senior VP of marketing for Bushwacker Ski Shop insists that pictures be taken of their new line of skiis only at the true North Pole instead of fake snow at a studio, he'll be think the exact same thing:

"Why the heck did I ruin this perfectly good hobby?"

--

 
Mr. Kinnane,
Please address me in a reasonable, friendly manner, Bill, instead of that rude, aggressive, trumped-up little headmaster way that you have here. My name is Ray or if you don't wish to use that, use the sign-on name that I use here. Or I certainly won't be responding to any more of your posts. Another reason for not responding to your posts is that I am one of the many that you have specifically asked not to post replies to you. But I guess you already know that.
In your own inimitable style, you simply have dismissed the
comments of those who don't agree with you by closing them out.
I don't think I have a style, but yes, I dismiss arguments from ill-informed, or uninformed sources, who quote nonsense figures like only 1 in 10,000 are happy and/or successful. Anyone with half a brain would dismiss that as a failed attempt at reasoned argument.
Chris made some excellent points and his statistics are based on
this thread and its responses. The math is not poor. It's
probably realistic.
Let's see. Maybe 100 posts. Maybe four or five positive posts from people doing it for a living. All of them positive. That leaves 95 posts from people who have never tried to be a professional photographer. And no posts from a failed, or unhappy professional photographer. And the math is not poor? I take the headmaster comment back!
I haven't seen your images or
your biography posted or highlighted on any web sites, other than
your own, or in any printed media. I do see images and biographies
of the one in a thousand in print media and highlighted on many,
many web sites.
I can only assume that you are making the inference that I didn't have a successful career, because you can't find traces of it on the internet. Which might, incidentally, say more about your internet skills than my career. Or are you inferring that I am lying about being a successful, and happy, professional photographer? If so, at least have the courage to come out and say it directly. Not that I care what you think. I know what I did, and some of the professional work is there for others to make there own judgements.
As you've already dismissed me in the past, I'd be very surprised
if you respond.
I normally don't respond to your posts, because I am not interested in them. As you usually don't respond to mine, I presume for similar reasons.

So I don't know what you are referring to here. I presume it is the message you left on my personal web site, demanding my personal email address so you could respond to my view that you make racist posts. For which you were suspended, I might add, although not of my doing. And I did respond to your message, by explaining that I don't give out my personal address to many people at all, for obvious reasons. And certainly not to people I have no interest in corresponding with. But I did say that you could respond to me charges in a public forum, to which I couldn't reply, which you didn't acknowledge, and didn't do. So in the end, I figured you must have agreed with me.
You've also dismissed some very capable
photographers from your personal agenda as to those who agree and
those who disagree.
You have an incredible way of twisting facts. That isn't in any way a reasoned assessment of what I stated. But reasoned argument isn't something you value, is it?

I never dismissed anybody for their photography, and I have never attacked anybody's photography. What I stated was meant to explain that people who have never been, or attempted to be, a pro photographer, hardly have the credentials to give advice on what a career in photography is like, or what it takes, or what the chances of success are. And I stand by that. I don't hold ill-informed, or uninformed opinions as being worth very much.

Ray Kinnane
Saga-shi, Japan
 
Hmm...this sounds to me like it's coming from a knocker who just
can't do it with computers (right back atcha, mate).
Absolutely correct. I would be the first to admit that I am not good with computers, and I have admitted it many times. So I would never presume that it was my right to go around telling people they shouldn't go for a career in computers, because I know that I don't know anything about it.

So why do you seem to be so adamant that it is your right to advise people about a career in professional photography?
This is hijacking the thread and soapboxing quite a bit, but that's
one of the reason why it burns me up when I see some of the
self-proclaimed "pros" on this forum reply to posts from amateur
photographers with quipping or snipping retorts like, "Learn about
your camera and then start taking pictures."
I'm not self-proclaimed, Chris. I was proclaimed pro by the tax man.
And it was the only income I had.
And when the OP decides to make the big jump from
amateur to pro, and has some bride's mother chewing on his ear
during the entire bridal shoot, or some art director telling him
that lettuce on that Ultimate Burger isn't properly lit to show
it's fresh crispness, or senior VP of marketing for Bushwacker Ski
Shop insists that pictures be taken of their new line of skiis only
at the true North Pole instead of fake snow at a studio, he'll be
think the exact same thing:

"Why the heck did I ruin this perfectly good hobby?"
None of those things have ever happened to me, Chris. And I doubt that they happen to many good photographers. Because we develop a rapport with out clients, understand them, and have them understand us. I don't know about weddings, though, as I have only ever done them as a hobby.

But when the young man above takes up accountancy, instead of pursuing his dream, he will be staring out the window of his stuffy office one day at the beautiful sunshine, Imagining what it would be like to be shooting the front cover of the next travel brochure for a Malaysian holiday resort, saying:

"Why the heck didn't I pursue this dream"?

rayk
 
Mr. Kinnane,
Please address me in a reasonable, friendly manner, Bill, instead
of that rude, aggressive, trumped-up little headmaster way that you
have here.
Trumped up little headmaster? 'e's not a 'eadmaster! Ol' Bill 'ere's a bloody pirate!

Bill, have you been wearing a different costume when posting lately and not telling us? Just so everyone knows, I'm currently dressed as Little Bo Peep while I'm typing this. I always wanted to be a sheep herdess, and Mr. Kinnane's inspiring messages here caused me to just go for it. I have the sheep hook and everything! Now I just have to find some sheep....
Let's see. Maybe 100 posts. Maybe four or five positive posts from
people doing it for a living. All of them positive. That leaves 95
posts from people who have never tried to be a professional
photographer. And no posts from a failed, or unhappy professional
photographer. And the math is not poor? I take the headmaster
comment back!
Maybe the reason for this is because the original poster asked if any current amateurs dreamed of going on to become professionals. Yes, he also asked for input from current pros as well, so I would think both amateurs and pros are qualified to post advice to this thread, as the OP seems to be seeking advice from both.
Ray Kinnane
Saga-shi, Japan
Okay, this has me in a state of shock. I've lived in Japan and loved it. It is beyond me how someone can be living in that beautiful country surrounded by such good people, and yet post such sour messages like you have in this thread. Get out, spend some time with your neighbors, take a walk, take some pictures. You have no excuse for this behavior.

--

 
Hmm...this sounds to me like it's coming from a knocker who just
can't do it with computers.
Absolutely correct. I would be the first to admit that I am not
good with computers, and I have admitted it many times. So I would
never presume that it was my right to go around telling people they
shouldn't go for a career in computers, because I know that I don't
know anything about it.

So why do you seem to be so adamant that it is your right to advise
people about a career in professional photography?
Oh, no...you're not going to get off that easy, Mr. Kettle. You said a couple of posts above:
I would imagine that what made, and continues to make computers
boring is concentrating on the equipment, rather than concentrating on
what you can do with it.

A little imagination required, I think, Mike.
It seems to me that you're claiming enough knowledge about computers to know what's really wrong with the computer industry.
I'm not self-proclaimed, Chris. I was proclaimed pro by the tax man.
And it was the only income I had.
Who was talking about you, Ray? You seem a tad hypersensitive on this whole professional photography thing, especially for someone who has had such a wonderfully satisfying career at it.

As for "self-proclaimed", did you not fill out your tax form, proclaiming yourself to be a photographer earning income? Wouldn't that be self-proclaimed? The tax man didn't make you choose photography as your career, Ray.
And when the OP decides to make the big jump from
amateur to pro, and has some bride's mother chewing on his ear
during the entire bridal shoot, or some art director telling him
that lettuce on that Ultimate Burger isn't properly lit to show
it's fresh crispness, or senior VP of marketing for Bushwacker Ski
Shop insists that pictures be taken of their new line of skiis only
at the true North Pole instead of fake snow at a studio, he'll be
think the exact same thing:

"Why the heck did I ruin this perfectly good hobby?"
None of those things have ever happened to me, Chris. And I doubt
that they happen to many good photographers. Because we develop a
rapport with out clients, understand them, and have them
understand us. I don't know about weddings, though, as I have only
ever done them as a hobby.
This doesn't coincide with why you avoid shoots with art directors, etc., as you mentioned earlier in the thread. Someone just starting out in a pro photography career is likely not going to have the financial options to pick and choose their clients. Early on (and likely for quite a while), they get who they can get, and that includes the picky bride's mother, the idiotic art director, and the demanding marketing VP.
But when the young man above takes up accountancy, instead of
pursuing his dream, he will be staring out the window of his stuffy
office one day at the beautiful sunshine, Imagining what it would
be like to be shooting the front cover of the next travel brochure
for a Malaysian holiday resort, saying:

"Why the heck didn't I pursue this dream"?
...or will he simply do what most of the forum members do, and say:

"Wow...look at the beautiful day. When I knock off here, I'm going snap some gorgeous pictures, post them to my website, and link to them via a post on DPReview."

And then he goes back to earning an easy $50/hour entering numbers in a computer spreadsheet, while looking forward to the relaxing, stressless fun he's about to have with his photography hobby.

--

 
Okay, this has me in a state of shock. I've lived in Japan and
loved it. It is beyond me how someone can be living in that
beautiful country surrounded by such good people, and yet post such
sour messages like you have in this thread. Get out, spend some
time with your neighbors, take a walk, take some pictures. You
have no excuse for this behavior.
I'll take your advice on that Chris. But remember, it takes two to argue.

But I thought my posts were in positive support of the OP going out to become a photographer. It is the majority on here, you included, who are full of dislike for their jobs, and negative advice.

But hey, whatever, Chris.

rayk
 
I would imagine that what made, and continues to make computers
boring is concentrating on the equipment, rather than concentrating on
what you can do with it.
It seems to me that you're claiming enough knowledge about
computers to know what's really wrong with the computer industry.
'I would imagine'......

Imagine. Do you know what that means, Chris? And I was using it to draw an analogy with photography, which part of my post you conveniently left out. So another little bit of dishonesty in your argument, Chris.

But as I said, whatever.

Enough from me here. I'm going out in the beautiful spring sunshine to take photographs.

rayk
 
Dislike for my job? Not me! Remember, I said RETIRED network engineer. I squeezed every penny out of it that I could and then quit. Now I'm sitting at home enjoying a 24x7 photography hobby, and not even thinking about making it a second career.

Good luck to you, Ray. I do envy you. Three years in Japan was simply not enough.

--

 
Okay, I stand corrected. But allow me to further correct myself...read the following:

"I would imagine..." and then go back and read every one of my posts about photography. That should cover me nicely! ;)

Again, good luck to you, Ray. I would go enjoy the sunshine with my camera, but I'm on the opposite side of the world (literally) and it's a wee bit dark here for my E-500's onboard flash.

--

 
He's the sort of person who will always have to scrounge a taxi
fare home, even if he wins the lottery.

And he commited the cardinal sin of getting divorced when he had
money -so SHE is still quite well off :-)[1]
And you use one example like that to show that photography doesn't
pay well?

End of sensible argument, I think.
It is, indeed, a poor argument, but the fact remains that photographer usually is a badly paid career. I should know, having done it and now moved on to anther badly paid, but very much higher 'quality of life' job.

--
mumbo jumbo
 
I often daydream about become I pro photographer, I can't wait to
get home from University to shoot, edit, and organize. Anyone else
feel this way?
Working as a photographer is a great way to suck all of the pleasure out of it, though some people thrive on it and love every minute. Give it a try if that's what you want - it's better, after all, to regret what you HAVE done.
Any pros out there? What is life like? Is it a hard go? Lifestyle?
Lots of different photography jobs, of course. The commercial photoghrapher has little in common wih the photojournalist or high fashion guy.
Anyone out there go from amateur to pro? Any tips for starting up?
Do you need diplomas and such to get recognition?
No. You need a portfolo of representative work and a break.

--
mumbo jumbo
 
She graduated as a photojournalist and worked for the then second biggest daily newspaper in the country for five years or so. At that time - she was in her twenties then - she enjoyed it, but there is no way you can sustain this lifestyle for an extended period of time, unless you abandon the idea of founding a family and raising children.

She had no free time. She never knew when and if she would get a good night's sleep - the only thing that was certain in her "routine" was that she had to show up at eight o'clock in the editorial office, attend the daily staff meeting at nine, get her assignments, and set out to complete them. If anything happened in the meantime - and there was always something happening unexpectedly - she had to be there. Often she was awoken to the ringing of her cell phone - she must have been among the first people in the contry to use one, back then, 13 or 14 years ago - in the middle of the night. Other times she would work until 3 a.m. It is do-able when you are in your twenties, but gets harder and harder once you are past thirty.

The other thing a photojournalist has to put up with is mental stress. You get a call from the editor or your informer at the police, ambulance or fire station saying there was an accident, and you have to go and photograph it. Many of these cases she will never forget. Such as when a busload of commuters died in a crash with a train, and even the most seasoned policemen were on the verge of crying. Or the sight of a father in a wheelchair going crazy blaming himself for not being able to stop his son from stepping in front of a car and getting run over... And the worst thing is you may then have to go on and show up at a reception to photograph local notables having fun - no time to digest what you have just seen. This is a stressful life by anyone's standards, and is not for everyone.

Other professional careers are less stressful, of course, but I cannot comment on those.
 
Sounds like a slightly more intense version of my experience as a PJ. I actually enjoyed the 'exciting' jobs, it was the endless round of handshakes and idiocy of the scheduling that got to me (like schedding 20 jobs on a Saturday afternoon - 10 of which could actually be done at full stretch, and then getting abused by the journos who'd not had 'their' photos done). Still, it was an insane place - fistfights in the newsroom and God-knows-what else...

--
mumbo jumbo
 
I have a job to pay the bills and support this expensive hobby...I don't think I want to make it a "job" to take pics, it is enjoyable right now because I don't live from it...too much stress I think...

Happy to stay amateur

:-)

Carlos
 
Interesting thread.

Most people I know who work in non-photographic professions sit behind a desk or on the phone all day. They aren't "the best" at what they do, they don't make tons of money, some work long hours for too little money, some deal endlessly with annoying clients and job requirements, and for many of them their job is stressful, annoying, frustrating and many of them wish they were out of it. But you've gotta pay the bills.

So I wonder if having the same constraints on a job as a professional photographer would be such a bad thing. :)

For me, I like taking photos because I can do it on my own terms. I'd like some day to be able to sell the odd pic here and there to cover the cost of a new lens, or a new camera body. But I'm too lazy to put in the hard work of being a pro.

If I'm honest, it's easier for me to be a day-job drone rather than go chasing dreams. I've chased (and caught) some dreams, just not at work. Which I sometimes think is sad, but life is full of compromises, and my day job has provided stability and a regular paycheck which let me do a lot of other things I want to do.

People make their choices for their own reasons. For those who have the courage and determination to try chasing their dreams I say good luck to you. Learn, try hard, and be committed to making your dream a reality and who knows what might happen.

I think I'm pretty lucky to be able to get out on a weekend or after work and take photos that make me happy.

If you have the guts to try for any job that's a dream job for you, then good on you. Let the naysayers knock you, but even if you fail, while you'll have to suffer the consequences of failure, you'll have tried something when others like me would rather take the easy road.

--Ben
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top