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X3 Alert: Code Yellow: Jaundiced Humans On Foveon Images?

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Jung Lee

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Urgent Request to All Friends X3 Followers:

On every published X3 image of human beings,
(Please see all or most known links listed for you below)
on looking at the SKIN TONE at the margins and shadows,
YELLOW waxy color cast is seen as if each human subject has
JAUNDICE or has CHOLESTEROL deposit problems under the skin!

We know that human skin has natural soft yellow cast and most digital imaging corrects for pleasant skin tones through lens, sensors, filters, phosphors (Sony) etc. I have to also mention that color of white 'snow on rocks' images posted by Stephen Johnson appears as blue 'detergent' color.

PURITY OF THE COLOR, the raison-de-etre for the sensational Foveon X3 CMOS sensor technology images comes into question? Is it that further interpolation and/or color correction algorithms are still required for final X3 images?

Please see:
http://www.foveon.com/img/Pressroom/Boxer.jpg
http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/index.htm
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp

Would you help with a short reply starting with: AGREE, DISAGREE or NOT SURE for the perceived color and followed by a reasoned explanation, if you wish?

With Many Thanks in Advance
and Best Personal Regards,
Jung Lee
 
Jung Lee,

I noticed that too. But these pictures are not really very representative.

I have seen a large and a small version of the cat both having different colors. There's nothing more we can do than wait for sample pictures to appear very soon. The Ice looked very blue to me like there was first a problem with white balance and then a problem with over saturation. All this is possible to make the pictures more "popping", they are just small file sizes so what else could they do? They aren't my preferred scenes to judge picture quality either. But I like the idea behind the technology of the X3 sensor. A 6Mp version next year would be nice if it turn out to be wonderful.

Jake.
Jung Lee said:
Urgent Request to All Friends X3 Followers:

On every published X3 image of human beings,
(Please see all or most known links listed for you below)
on looking at the SKIN TONE at the margins and shadows,
YELLOW waxy color cast is seen as if each human subject has
JAUNDICE or has CHOLESTEROL deposit problems under the skin!

We know that human skin has natural soft yellow cast and most
digital imaging corrects for pleasant skin tones through lens,
sensors, filters, phosphors (Sony) etc. I have to also mention that
color of white 'snow on rocks' images posted by Stephen Johnson
appears as blue 'detergent' color.

PURITY OF THE COLOR, the raison-de-etre for the sensational Foveon
X3 CMOS sensor technology images comes into question? Is it that
further interpolation and/or color correction algorithms are still
required for final X3 images?

Please see:
http://www.foveon.com/img/Pressroom/Boxer.jpg
http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/index.htm
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp

Would you help with a short reply starting with: AGREE, DISAGREE or
NOT SURE for the perceived color and followed by a reasoned
explanation, if you wish?

With Many Thanks in Advance
and Best Personal Regards,
Jung Lee
Click to expand...
--Jake.
 
Jung Lee said:
Urgent Request to All Friends X3 Followers:

On every published X3 image of human beings,
(Please see all or most known links listed for you below)
on looking at the SKIN TONE at the margins and shadows,
YELLOW waxy color cast is seen as if each human subject has
JAUNDICE or has CHOLESTEROL deposit problems under the skin!
Click to expand...
I didn't notice that skin tones other than the fact they were amazingly realistic. No yellow caste to my eye.
Jung Lee said:
We know that human skin has natural soft yellow cast and most
digital imaging corrects for pleasant skin tones through lens,
sensors, filters, phosphors (Sony) etc. I have to also mention that
color of white 'snow on rocks' images posted by Stephen Johnson
appears as blue 'detergent' color.
Click to expand...
A very blue sky has a way of illuminating snow similar to those images. Some photographers like an (unreal) supersaturated look and they expose their shots that way to get it. I did a levels adjustment to bring some light into the shadows and the images look ...well, perfect afterward.

Also these are jpeg'd,reduced sample shots from pre-prod. rigs...there are bound to be tweaks in the final cameras.

My advice ? wait patiently before making judgements.

Regards,

Dsl
Jung Lee said:
PURITY OF THE COLOR, the raison-de-etre for the sensational Foveon
X3 CMOS sensor technology images comes into question? Is it that
further interpolation and/or color correction algorithms are still
required for final X3 images?

Please see:
http://www.foveon.com/img/Pressroom/Boxer.jpg
http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/index.htm
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp

Would you help with a short reply starting with: AGREE, DISAGREE or
NOT SURE for the perceived color and followed by a reasoned
explanation, if you wish?

With Many Thanks in Advance
and Best Personal Regards,
Jung Lee
Click to expand...
--DSL
 
Some yes. Most no.
It's a "preproduction" technology.
And many humans are NOT caucasian. Some have a beautiful "tone" to there skin.
Around here we are never too harsh on pre production cameras.
Let's wait before we dissect this thing.

Homer
Jung Lee said:
Urgent Request to All Friends X3 Followers:

On every published X3 image of human beings,
(Please see all or most known links listed for you below)
on looking at the SKIN TONE at the margins and shadows,
YELLOW waxy color cast is seen as if each human subject has
JAUNDICE or has CHOLESTEROL deposit problems under the skin!

We know that human skin has natural soft yellow cast and most
digital imaging corrects for pleasant skin tones through lens,
sensors, filters, phosphors (Sony) etc. I have to also mention that
color of white 'snow on rocks' images posted by Stephen Johnson
appears as blue 'detergent' color.

PURITY OF THE COLOR, the raison-de-etre for the sensational Foveon
X3 CMOS sensor technology images comes into question? Is it that
further interpolation and/or color correction algorithms are still
required for final X3 images?

Please see:
http://www.foveon.com/img/Pressroom/Boxer.jpg
http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/index.htm
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp

Would you help with a short reply starting with: AGREE, DISAGREE or
NOT SURE for the perceived color and followed by a reasoned
explanation, if you wish?

With Many Thanks in Advance
and Best Personal Regards,
Jung Lee
Click to expand...
 
One or two pictures I thought looked a little yellow, as you say, but they were taken by who knows who, under who knows what lighting and with who knows what colour correction AND with a preproduction model camera.
My advice is put it to rest until there a lab tests done.
 
Images do show that skin has yellow color patches. White is not white!

Color blindness or color bias (visual or photographic) are the only possibilities!

X3 claims true additive and/or subtractive colors by R, G and B channels at each pixel!

Why did Foveon NOT post Color/Resolution Standards before making color claims?

Foveon CMOS has to show real shades/colors of life! Otherwise it has no color claims!

IMO, why should one wait with patience for somebody to disprove their claims?

Show me the proof of color of money! Right Now!

Otherwise, my money goes to others at PMA!

Regards,
Jung Lee
David SL said:
I didn't notice that skin tones other than the fact they were
amazingly realistic. No yellow caste to my eye.

A very blue sky has a way of illuminating snow similar to those
images. Some photographers like an (unreal) supersaturated look and
they expose their shots that way to get it. I did a levels
adjustment to bring some light into the shadows and the images look
...well, perfect afterward.

Also these are jpeg'd,reduced sample shots from pre-prod.
rigs...there are bound to be tweaks in the final cameras.

My advice ? wait patiently before making judgements.

Regards,

Dsl
Click to expand...
 
David SL said:
[snip]
A very blue sky has a way of illuminating snow similar to those
images.
Click to expand...
Actually the 'ice blue' is caused by the fact that ice absorbs the longer wavelengths of lighter much more readily that shorter ones, leading to a blue tint (i.e. the same reason the sky is blue, but not dependent on having a blue sky). It's much more prevalent with dense, glacier-type ice that the porous "frozen snow" type ice shown in the picture.

Cheers,
Pete
-- http://www.peter-cockerell.net:8080/
 
Thanks, well said and understood!
Yet my buying decisions are delayed!
Have I wasted time learning X3 Claims?
Alas, time and/= or money will tell all soon!

Regards,
Jung Lee
brent said:
One or two pictures I thought looked a little yellow, as you say,
but they were taken by who knows who, under who knows what lighting
and with who knows what colour correction AND with a preproduction
model camera.
My advice is put it to rest until there a lab tests done.
Click to expand...
 
The boxer and cat looked way too yellow to me on first view. Phil's partner looks a little yellow, but she's Chinese, so you have to make allowances. The exposed wood under the bark of the tree in one of the sjphoto ones seemed too yellow as well. OTOH, I'm so used to having to tweak the colors out of my F707 that if these were the kind of images that came straight out of a Sigma Foveon camera, I don't think I'd be heartbroken. Certainly these ones seem easy enought to correct is PS, and who knows what the Sigma color will be like anyway?

Cheers,
Pete

-- http://www.peter-cockerell.net:8080/
 
Agreed with thanks for your reply, Pete!
Sorry, I am somewhat disappointed right now!

Regards,
Jung Lee
Pete Cockerell said:
The boxer and cat looked way too yellow to me on first view. Phil's
partner looks a little yellow, but she's Chinese, so you have to
make allowances. The exposed wood under the bark of the tree in one
of the sjphoto ones seemed too yellow as well. OTOH, I'm so used to
having to tweak the colors out of my F707 that if these were the
kind of images that came straight out of a Sigma Foveon camera, I
don't think I'd be heartbroken. Certainly these ones seem easy
enought to correct is PS, and who knows what the Sigma color will
be like anyway?

Cheers,
Pete

--
http://www.peter-cockerell.net:8080/
Click to expand...
 
Dear David,
Many thanks for your reply.
I sincerely accept your advice.
I shall wait till tests are published.

Regards,
Jung Lee
David SL said:
Jung Lee said:
Urgent Request to All Friends X3 Followers:

On every published X3 image of human beings,
(Please see all or most known links listed for you below)
on looking at the SKIN TONE at the margins and shadows,
YELLOW waxy color cast is seen as if each human subject has
JAUNDICE or has CHOLESTEROL deposit problems under the skin!
Click to expand...
I didn't notice that skin tones other than the fact they were
amazingly realistic. No yellow caste to my eye.
David SL said:
We know that human skin has natural soft yellow cast and most
digital imaging corrects for pleasant skin tones through lens,
sensors, filters, phosphors (Sony) etc. I have to also mention that
color of white 'snow on rocks' images posted by Stephen Johnson
appears as blue 'detergent' color.
Click to expand...
A very blue sky has a way of illuminating snow similar to those
images. Some photographers like an (unreal) supersaturated look and
they expose their shots that way to get it. I did a levels
adjustment to bring some light into the shadows and the images look
...well, perfect afterward.

Also these are jpeg'd,reduced sample shots from pre-prod.
rigs...there are bound to be tweaks in the final cameras.

My advice ? wait patiently before making judgements.

Regards,

Dsl
David SL said:
PURITY OF THE COLOR, the raison-de-etre for the sensational Foveon
X3 CMOS sensor technology images comes into question? Is it that
further interpolation and/or color correction algorithms are still
required for final X3 images?

Please see:
http://www.foveon.com/img/Pressroom/Boxer.jpg
http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/index.htm
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp

Would you help with a short reply starting with: AGREE, DISAGREE or
NOT SURE for the perceived color and followed by a reasoned
explanation, if you wish?

With Many Thanks in Advance
and Best Personal Regards,
Jung Lee
Click to expand...
--
DSL
Click to expand...
 
Dear Jake

White balance and Frozen Ice can be explained or corrected with Photoshop.
I am more worried about color purity for yellow and other add/sub colors.
Everybody feels we should wait till somebody posts tests and pictures.
Why Foveon and SIGMA have not do so with reference shots?
I am disappointed and frustrated to say the least.

Thanks for your reply.

Best Regards,
Jung Lee
Jake said:
I noticed that too. But these pictures are not really very
representative.
I have seen a large and a small version of the cat both having
different colors. There's nothing more we can do than wait for
sample pictures to appear very soon. The Ice looked very blue to me
like there was first a problem with white balance and then a
problem with over saturation. All this is possible to make the
pictures more "popping", they are just small file sizes so what
else could they do? They aren't my preferred scenes to judge
picture quality either. But I like the idea behind the technology
of the X3 sensor. A 6Mp version next year would be nice if it turn
out to be wonderful.

Jake.
Jung Lee said:
Urgent Request to All Friends X3 Followers:

On every published X3 image of human beings,
(Please see all or most known links listed for you below)
on looking at the SKIN TONE at the margins and shadows,
YELLOW waxy color cast is seen as if each human subject has
JAUNDICE or has CHOLESTEROL deposit problems under the skin!

We know that human skin has natural soft yellow cast and most
digital imaging corrects for pleasant skin tones through lens,
sensors, filters, phosphors (Sony) etc. I have to also mention that
color of white 'snow on rocks' images posted by Stephen Johnson
appears as blue 'detergent' color.

PURITY OF THE COLOR, the raison-de-etre for the sensational Foveon
X3 CMOS sensor technology images comes into question? Is it that
further interpolation and/or color correction algorithms are still
required for final X3 images?

Please see:
http://www.foveon.com/img/Pressroom/Boxer.jpg
http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/index.htm
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp

Would you help with a short reply starting with: AGREE, DISAGREE or
NOT SURE for the perceived color and followed by a reasoned
explanation, if you wish?

With Many Thanks in Advance
and Best Personal Regards,
Jung Lee
Click to expand...
--
Jake.
Click to expand...
 
Pete,

Very good points, especially about correcting colors in PhotoShop. Changing color balance is pretty easy.

OTH, dealing with camera generated jpg artifacts, oversharpening halos, noise in shadows and metalic-looking skin tones is very difficult. Overcoming blooming is not as bad, but still a hassle. Many current digicams have these problems.

If the Fovean technology can handle the latter and the only downside is a little color correction issue, then that's good enough for me.

Regards,

Dan.
Pete Cockerell said:
The boxer and cat looked way too yellow to me on first view. Phil's
partner looks a little yellow, but she's Chinese, so you have to
make allowances. The exposed wood under the bark of the tree in one
of the sjphoto ones seemed too yellow as well. OTOH, I'm so used to
having to tweak the colors out of my F707 that if these were the
kind of images that came straight out of a Sigma Foveon camera, I
don't think I'd be heartbroken. Certainly these ones seem easy
enought to correct is PS, and who knows what the Sigma color will
be like anyway?

Cheers,
Pete

--
http://www.peter-cockerell.net:8080/
Click to expand...
 
I am glad when (sometimes) the colours on my screen have something to do with the colours on the printer. But if I take a CD to a lab, who may be running on sRGB instead of Adobe RGB, I am not half suprised from the shiftes. How can anybody judge from the pics appearing here and there on the Net? There are only two places where you can judge colours: either your computer, with a file working in your own colour environment, or one of Phil's tests, where you know the conditions how the other cameras behaved. Before, I would suspend judgment. The Canon D60 is at the moment the only DSLR with predictable behaviour, since they have been wise enough to keep the technology and rise the resolution.
Fabio
 
Jung Lee said:
Otherwise, my money goes to others at PMA!
Click to expand...
Hey, spend your money however you wish!

Most of us could care less what you think about the X3. Fovean probably cares little about your opinion too, and in fact, it wouldn't be a good thing if you were to buy a camera using their sensor, because you would probably do nothing but whine about this or that..

Besides, white skin isn't white, it's a lot of different shades and colors and the X3 pics that I have seen do an excellent job of showing them...

--Sincerely,Bob the Printer
 
It is really hard to say with just a few pictures with a prototype sensor.

What I think I noticed was that the skin tones seems to move very fast from redish (in the highlights) to yellowish. All kind of factors including the lighting could cause these effects so I would not call it either way.

It would be nice to see a picture of a standard color chart. If I had a product that I thought had great color, I would have included a color chart in my samples. It could be that they are still tweaking the color algorithms and don't want to shot it yet.

Karl
Jung Lee said:
Urgent Request to All Friends X3 Followers:

On every published X3 image of human beings,
(Please see all or most known links listed for you below)
on looking at the SKIN TONE at the margins and shadows,
YELLOW waxy color cast is seen as if each human subject has
JAUNDICE or has CHOLESTEROL deposit problems under the skin!

We know that human skin has natural soft yellow cast and most
digital imaging corrects for pleasant skin tones through lens,
sensors, filters, phosphors (Sony) etc. I have to also mention that
color of white 'snow on rocks' images posted by Stephen Johnson
appears as blue 'detergent' color.

PURITY OF THE COLOR, the raison-de-etre for the sensational Foveon
X3 CMOS sensor technology images comes into question? Is it that
further interpolation and/or color correction algorithms are still
required for final X3 images?

Please see:
http://www.foveon.com/img/Pressroom/Boxer.jpg
http://www.sjphoto.com/web-special/index.htm
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0202/02021103foveonx3preview.asp

Would you help with a short reply starting with: AGREE, DISAGREE or
NOT SURE for the perceived color and followed by a reasoned
explanation, if you wish?

With Many Thanks in Advance
and Best Personal Regards,
Jung Lee
Click to expand...
--Karl
 
Oh Pete,

I am quite familiar with the physics of "why" but I didn't want to get off my main point, which was that the original post has very little merit.

Thanks for the weigh in..

Regards,

Dsl
Pete Cockerell said:
David SL said:
[snip]
A very blue sky has a way of illuminating snow similar to those
images.
Click to expand...
Actually the 'ice blue' is caused by the fact that ice absorbs the
longer wavelengths of lighter much more readily that shorter ones,
leading to a blue tint (i.e. the same reason the sky is blue, but
not dependent on having a blue sky). It's much more prevalent with
dense, glacier-type ice that the porous "frozen snow" type ice
shown in the picture.

Cheers,
Pete

--
http://www.peter-cockerell.net:8080/
Click to expand...
--DSL
 
I posted this before, but nobody seemed to notice. If you take the saturation down by 30 or even 40 points in photoshop, the colors appear much more natural (for those picky respondents: TO MY EYES.) I suspect that Foveon is trying to impress with these samples and hyped up the color to attract attention. Look how many on this forum have raved about the color in the pool shot. Try desaturating until it looks natural, and it doesn't seem like such a spectacular shot. Also, in the color comparison that they did with a Mosaic sensor, they saturated their sample and left the mosaic more normal. These people are very skillful at hyping their products. The Sigma might be a great camera, but my guess is that there are several problems that are being masked by these carefully chosen samples. The sharpness is surely there. These look sharp at screen res 100%. Most of the other big hitters look a bit soft at that res. The color might be the doown fall on the early models of these cameras..... or I might be completely off track!!--TJ
 
Bob the Printer said:
Hey, spend your money however you wish!
Click to expand...
Did you miss the point entirely that most poster friends consider buying digital cameras based on informed discussions and opinions from PMA and posted here by the excellent, courteous and friendly community at DPR! Hey BOB, spend your forum ink (waste our time) however you wish!
Bob the Printer said:
Most of us could care less what you think about the X3. Fovean
probably cares little about your opinion too, and in fact, it
wouldn't be a good thing if you were to buy a camera using their
sensor, because you would probably do nothing but whine about this
or that..
Click to expand...
We care what we write! Most care what we write! That includes FOVEON!
Should we not care a hoot worth a reply for your above whine!
Bob the Printer said:
Besides, white skin isn't white, it's a lot of different shades and
colors and the X3 pics that I have seen do an excellent job of
showing them...
Click to expand...
White Skin? Now that is ignorant, off color and a remark!
Is this what you speak and print people's skin color as white or black !!
Sad, your thread participation is misspelt, misspent and missing the point!!!
Bob the Printer said:
--
Sincerely,
Bob the Printer
Click to expand...
Sincerely? From You?
 
Oh, OK then. Sorry.

Cheers,
Pete
David SL said:
I am quite familiar with the physics of "why" but I didn't want to
get off my main point, which was that the original post has very
little merit.

Thanks for the weigh in..

Regards,

Dsl
Pete Cockerell said:
David SL said:
[snip]
A very blue sky has a way of illuminating snow similar to those
images.
Click to expand...
Actually the 'ice blue' is caused by the fact that ice absorbs the
longer wavelengths of lighter much more readily that shorter ones,
leading to a blue tint (i.e. the same reason the sky is blue, but
not dependent on having a blue sky). It's much more prevalent with
dense, glacier-type ice that the porous "frozen snow" type ice
shown in the picture.

Cheers,
Pete

--
http://www.peter-cockerell.net:8080/
Click to expand...
--
DSL
Click to expand...
-- http://www.peter-cockerell.net:8080/
 
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