My apologies...

  • Thread starter Thread starter avanbeek
  • Start date Start date
Ok, fair enough. We will differ though but thats what opinions are
for and how we are made up. Respect does not change.
Absolutely. That last sentence was a biggie and should be a heading of a post. And that includes everyone.
I must admit that if someone copied exactly what I had shot and
gave it the same title, then I would be pretty something off. Must
give the benifit of the doubt though.
That's the whole thing right there. No answer to give, but that's what has put people off. Perceived or not.
Have seen a friends macro show up in another forum with someone
else's name on it and that was not a pretty site to see :-)) or the
response it got, LOL. I do see where you are coming from but the
proof is pretty vague IMHO.
Its not so much about proof. There are people on both sides that were equally wrong, maybe myself included.

This should have been a discussion about the issue, not about the people so much. Although it would have been hard to escape that.
All the best and fair enough
ditto
Danny.
C'mon, Danny. Its not just about inspiration. Of course everyone
sees shots that inspire them. But thats not what this is about.
If you're saying that it is, then you're saying that the Sun Kissed
shot was seen, and it was okay to be inspired to copy it. That's
unacceptable. Its fine to emulate, but to use the same name? So,
you either have to go on the premise that it either wasn't seen at
all and is mere coincidence, or that it was seen and was a direct
copy including title.

But the inspiration argument does not work here.

Jim

--
Jim Fuglestad
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
--Jim Fuglestad http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries
 
AVB......

PLEASE repost your images to the challenge. Your images INSPIRED me to be / post the best I could. Whoever wins this challenge will always have in the back of their mind the fact that some VERY good entries were withdrawn. It's like the L.A. Lakers getting to the NBA finals then saying....

tell you what, we're going to sit Shaq out for this series. I know... NEVER happen but, if hte other team wins, everyone will be saying the only reason they won was because Shaq wasn't in for the CHALLENGE.

You get my point here? Please don't diminish the level of hte challenge. And more importantly, don't let what you see as (in your mind) the mal intent of others, keep you away from doing something you were obviously enjoying and, very good at.

Warm regards,
Mark J.
Well everyone involved...

I'm sorry that I brought the "can of worms" thing up but the
reaction was not surprising for me. What was disappointing (ya I
know, "who cares") is the inability to discuss this in a civil
manner. Not everything in life makes you jump for joy but there's
no need to let things get out of hand regardless of how much you
disagree. The art of discussion is clearly dead. My opinion - big
deal.

My apologies as well to debadguy for all the negative press brought
on by this.

So rather than shooting the messenger, I figured I'd commit
suicide. I've with-drawn my submissions for the latest Challenge as
my heart is SO not into it anymore. The shear volume of people who
admitted to their condoning of copying everything except the actual
image has scared me silly. The line between imitation and
inspiration is solid black for me and I need to re-think how I deal
with online stuff.

Damn it was fun while it lasted.

Please realize that I'm not judging anyone for anything, it's just
not for me.
--
Regards,
AVB
 
Dear AVB,

you don't need to feel sorry. A fiery discussion is what this forum needs now and then. It does get boring with the same threads all the time: "My first try at panorama", "Should I buy a Canon or a Nikon or a Sony" "Which picture should I choose for the next challenge". (Zzzzzzzzzzz) I would call your thread a bit of fresh air. A bit hot, but still refreshing.

But I agree with you that people take everything personal, like someone offended their mother or something. It's just about photos and I think everyone should be able to have an opinion without everyone else trying to strangle him/her.
In short, my opinion in this matter is this:

Good pics are a good inspiration, we need that all the time. It is hard to come up with original ideas. If I saw an picture I admired and I thought I could make a picture like that, of course I would try it. And if I was happy with the result I would show to my friends and my family and be very proud. I don't really know if I would tell them I got the idea from another picture, but I think I would because that wouldn't make me less proud.

BUT - I would NEVER send that picture to a challenge or contest pretending I made that picture from the beginning, from idea to the finished picture.

I and 99.99999 percent of everyone on this forum wants you to stay. And as this is a democracy, the majority rules. So please stay.

Eva
 
In addition to what all the true 'pros' have written, urging you to stay active in the Challenges, I'd like to speak for the rank beginners who follow this forum carefully - trying to learn all we can: please don't stop inspiring us! If you're no longer comfortable with being a Challenge competitor, then can't you think of yourself as a Challenge mentor? Even though we newbies don't give you much feedback that matters, I want you to know that what you give us is invaluable! I so hope you can put your heart into that one and keep doing what you do . . . for a whole new reason. Sincerely, Susan
So rather than shooting the messenger, I figured I'd commit
suicide. I've with-drawn my submissions for the latest Challenge as
my heart is SO not into it anymore. > --
Regards,
AVB
 
You did nothing to apologise for. As just a few acknowledged, you were getting disturbed by the unchecked and expanding innuendo and decided it was high time to put a stop to it. And I suspect that you only got in just ahead of a few of us who'd been agonising over that very decision. By airing it properly you did a good service to both the issue and debadguy himself. It's a pity that everyone took the negativity as your personal opinion and didn't trouble to understand what you were trying to do, especially after you clarified that aim some way down the thread.

As you asked yourself, "How many different ways does it need to be explained?" I wish I knew, but I agree that once should have been enough.

Please stick around. What you have to offer is bigger than the negatives you caught. It's everone else's folly — not the messenger's — if they are so mentally befogged as to shoot first, customary human behaviour notwithstanding.

Cheers,
Mike
Well everyone involved...

I'm sorry that I brought the "can of worms" thing up but the
reaction was not surprising for me. What was disappointing (ya I
know, "who cares") is the inability to discuss this in a civil
manner. Not everything in life makes you jump for joy but there's
no need to let things get out of hand regardless of how much you
disagree. The art of discussion is clearly dead. My opinion - big
deal.

My apologies as well to debadguy for all the negative press brought
on by this.

So rather than shooting the messenger, I figured I'd commit
suicide. I've with-drawn my submissions for the latest Challenge as
my heart is SO not into it anymore. The shear volume of people who
admitted to their condoning of copying everything except the actual
image has scared me silly. The line between imitation and
inspiration is solid black for me and I need to re-think how I deal
with online stuff.

Damn it was fun while it lasted.

Please realize that I'm not judging anyone for anything, it's just
not for me.
--
Regards,
AVB
 
More sadly, we've lost two of the best members of this forum
because some previously quiet squaks stumbled upon their hill to
die on.
I have been hanging in the weeds on his forum for a few months, not posting, just learning, as the VAST majority of people who come thru here do. When a few of the silent majority express an opinion to a public post and get labeled as "quiet squaks" its getting out of hand. If the members wouldnt air their differences in public, then the public would not be inclined to take sides in what should have been a private matter. Thats just good manners. This is Phils house. I would not publicley scold anyone here, anymore than I would at any physical public place.

Most people come here for some quick research on cameras, read what they need and leave. It would be a shame if they stop coming because they see these public posts that should have been handled behind the scenes.

BTW, whats a squak?
 
Hahahahahahahah....

You know ME (the Dictionary.com guy)

I took a look at the site at http://www.m-w.com (Ok, so it's probably an American dictionary)

Looked up "agonizing", and they give the usual definition. Right?

So then I look up "agonising" (never even seen it spelled that way), and they say:
"Main Entry: ag·o·nise, agonised, agonising
British variant ofAGONIZE, AGONIZED, AGONIZING"

Almost as if it's an afterthought.

Bahahahahahahahahahahahah!!©

English... sheesh. Maybe we should all just speak Gujarati or something simple like that.
Wow... such emotional investment. :)
Quite so. And I really feel for you lot, what with having to do it
with a "z". Ouch! — those sharp corners :-))

M
-- Ulysses
 
Eva Åström wrote:

If I saw an picture I admired and I thought I could make a picture like that, of course I would try it. . .
BUT - I would NEVER send that picture to a challenge or contest
pretending I made that picture from the beginning, from idea to the
finished picture.
You nailed it Eva! Feel free to learn but don't exploit. Challenges are as much about improving technically as artistically
I and 99.99999 percent of everyone on this forum wants you to stay.
And as this is a democracy, the majority rules. So please stay.
Yes! AVB, David, and whoever else took their ball and went home . . . please come back, we love you!

--CindyD
 
Yes, agonizing. I know several who struggled with the best way to deal with the issue, and, if handled publicly, how best to do it. The issue was a desire to balance what's fair to the individual (and kindly) with what's right for the standards of this group.

In the 4 months or so I've been on board we haven't publicly wrestled with any ethical issues.

This sort of "storming" is part of any community's effort to define itself. I just hate to see really valued members like AVB or debadguy so bummed out by intemperate language that they feel they have to leave. We are all the losers in that case.
It's still a good forum, marginally less volatile than the Fuji forum.
you only got in just ahead of a few of us who'd been agonising over
that very decision.
--

Ulysses
--EricF707 http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc
 
AVB (and all others who would vacate the forum over this issue)

First, no apology is required IMHO. I understood your intent.

Humans are so predictable. When this thread first started, anyone with human psyche knowledge could have predicted this very outcome. It started with a very noble intention... to defuse a growing issue. Was the issue with fledglings, or, rather, with those who have established themselves as icons within this forum and their craft? The discussion quickly turned from "getting it out in the open", to taking sides, to personal jabs, to accusations, judgement,....anger. Totally predictable. We are all 7 year olds at heart when it comes to this kind of thing. Easily hurt.

We are all victims of our human emotion, ego, and pride, but especially those with accomplishments, who have worked hard at their craft wear their emotion, ego, and pride way out on their shirtsleeve. This has a devastating effect when artistic ethics are questioned, insinuations are lobbed, intentions misinterpreted.

I completely understand how you can convince yourself that this is the best course of action for you, and I really do respect that only you can know what is best for you. However, please reconsider your decision. Why? Because you are an important feature of this forum. Your presence is a blessing to those of us (like me) who gather knowledge from every tidbit of info or shot you post (and others like you).

You have the power to overcome this, to deny your conflicting emotion in favor of your love for this thing that you have become so proficient at.

Put your work back in the Challenge, even if your heart is not in it right now. This will be an important step toward starting the healing process and getting back to the real issue... photography, and creating the best work you can with the knowledge and resources you have.

Disclaimer: Not only have I been a member in this forum for only a month, but I am not the brightest light on the Christmas tree. I have tried very hard to not further antagonize anyone, so please forgive me if I failed in this goal.

ScarBoro
Well everyone involved...

I'm sorry that I brought the "can of worms" thing up but the
reaction was not surprising for me. What was disappointing (ya I
know, "who cares") is the inability to discuss this in a civil
manner. Not everything in life makes you jump for joy but there's
no need to let things get out of hand regardless of how much you
disagree. The art of discussion is clearly dead. My opinion - big
deal.

My apologies as well to debadguy for all the negative press brought
on by this.

So rather than shooting the messenger, I figured I'd commit
suicide. I've with-drawn my submissions for the latest Challenge as
my heart is SO not into it anymore. The shear volume of people who
admitted to their condoning of copying everything except the actual
image has scared me silly. The line between imitation and
inspiration is solid black for me and I need to re-think how I deal
with online stuff.

Damn it was fun while it lasted.

Please realize that I'm not judging anyone for anything, it's just
not for me.
--
Regards,
AVB
--I would rather look back and regret some of the things I have done, than to look back and regret all of the things I haven't done. s.j.b.
 
Well said ScarBoro! I endorse your comments.

A pox on the side effects of competition which seem to me to comprise some of the negative energy I have seen here.

When I take pics, I am always looking to see something with a new vision. Sometimes it succeeds and sometimes it bombs. I love the work of Brassai, Magritte and (thanks Hedgehog and debadguy) Kubrick. They have impressed me so much that their footsteps lie indelibly on my unconscious, as particular images or bodies of work do for all of us (or so I imagine).

The challenge has, for me simply been fun. I have noticed pic resemblances along the way and absolutely not stopped for a second thought, nor will I when this discussion is history.

I strive to be different, perhaps too much. When entering a flower in the latest challenge I was berating myself for not being more imaginative, and also thinking that including a flower was too much like the other stuff i saw out there. I justified it on the basis of the very soft and almost dull shades it had- then it was sufficiently different for me.

I would like to urge all of you to use the tools we have in place. We have the option to comment or not, to vote or not. Personally speaking I value comments above votes. If I don't get 'em I feel I have fallen short of my goals. The best way to get me out of the forum is to ignore what I do. That might be true for others. If for whatever reason you feel negatively about an image then my suggestion is to ignore it completely. It's hard for me to imagine a person continuing for long with no comments or votes. By the same token i would urge all of us to encourage, encourage, encourage those who are really trying and struggling to improve their work.

In STF we are a band of brothers and sisters, it's a bit like a family with acquaintances dropping in from time to time. Let's treat each other well, give others the benefit of the doubt and focus (pardon the word) our energy on what brung us here in the first place which is analyzing and improving our art, making it the best it can be.....and then better.

Humbly,

Fremiet
AVB (and all others who would vacate the forum over this issue)

First, no apology is required IMHO. I understood your intent.

Humans are so predictable. When this thread first started, anyone
with human psyche knowledge could have predicted this very outcome.
It started with a very noble intention... to defuse a growing
issue. Was the issue with fledglings, or, rather, with those who
have established themselves as icons within this forum and their
craft? The discussion quickly turned from "getting it out in the
open", to taking sides, to personal jabs, to accusations,
judgement,....anger. Totally predictable. We are all 7 year olds
at heart when it comes to this kind of thing. Easily hurt.

We are all victims of our human emotion, ego, and pride, but
especially those with accomplishments, who have worked hard at
their craft wear their emotion, ego, and pride way out on their
shirtsleeve. This has a devastating effect when artistic ethics
are questioned, insinuations are lobbed, intentions misinterpreted.

I completely understand how you can convince yourself that this is
the best course of action for you, and I really do respect that
only you can know what is best for you. However, please reconsider
your decision. Why? Because you are an important feature of this
forum. Your presence is a blessing to those of us (like me) who
gather knowledge from every tidbit of info or shot you post (and
others like you).

You have the power to overcome this, to deny your conflicting
emotion in favor of your love for this thing that you have become
so proficient at.

Put your work back in the Challenge, even if your heart is not in
it right now. This will be an important step toward starting the
healing process and getting back to the real issue... photography,
and creating the best work you can with the knowledge and resources
you have.
 
Nearly missed it. Geez these threads move out of sight fast... Now then:
Hahahahahahahah....

You know ME (the Dictionary.com guy)

I took a look at the site at http://www.m-w.com (Ok, so it's probably an
American dictionary)

Looked up "agonizing", and they give the usual definition. Right?

So then I look up "agonising" (never even seen it spelled that
way), and they say:
"Main Entry: ag·o·nise, agonised, agonising
British variant ofAGONIZE, AGONIZED, AGONIZING"

Almost as if it's an afterthought.
Tell me about it. We're an afterthought as a nation even to the Poms these days. It's no secret that Lizzie herself (and a lot of the Mother Country Establishment) would have been more than happy to see us out of their hair as a republic. It was the diehards at this end that stymied it!

As for dictionaries, well, MS Word is supposed to have its Australian English dictionary based on our official Macquarie publications. OK, it gets the esses and zeds right (if you remember to set it up properly), but I'm still awaiting a decent excuse for its failure to stop words like "gotten" !!

Mike :-)
 
Whew! OK...I've now spent the last 45 minutes or so reading this entire thread, and have to go back and read all the way through AVB's original thread and Amy's to completely catch up (I was away most of the week when all of this transpired).

I will now speak totally selfishly...regardless of the underlying issues...

I've been a member here for a couple of months; AVB and debadguy have been two of my "mentors" (unknowingly on their respective parts), and not having them in this forum will be a real loss for all of us.

Maybe after what's gone on they just need a break...some "fresh air"...and hopefully they'll be back...even more hopefully, they'll reconsider and not leave.

I just know that my learning and inspiration will be reduced by their absence.

Loren
A pox on the side effects of competition which seem to me to
comprise some of the negative energy I have seen here.

When I take pics, I am always looking to see something with a new
vision. Sometimes it succeeds and sometimes it bombs. I love the
work of Brassai, Magritte and (thanks Hedgehog and debadguy)
Kubrick. They have impressed me so much that their footsteps lie
indelibly on my unconscious, as particular images or bodies of work
do for all of us (or so I imagine).

The challenge has, for me simply been fun. I have noticed pic
resemblances along the way and absolutely not stopped for a second
thought, nor will I when this discussion is history.

I strive to be different, perhaps too much. When entering a flower
in the latest challenge I was berating myself for not being more
imaginative, and also thinking that including a flower was too much
like the other stuff i saw out there. I justified it on the basis
of the very soft and almost dull shades it had- then it was
sufficiently different for me.

I would like to urge all of you to use the tools we have in place.
We have the option to comment or not, to vote or not. Personally
speaking I value comments above votes. If I don't get 'em I feel I
have fallen short of my goals. The best way to get me out of the
forum is to ignore what I do. That might be true for others. If
for whatever reason you feel negatively about an image then my
suggestion is to ignore it completely. It's hard for me to imagine
a person continuing for long with no comments or votes. By the
same token i would urge all of us to encourage, encourage,
encourage those who are really trying and struggling to improve
their work.

In STF we are a band of brothers and sisters, it's a bit like a
family with acquaintances dropping in from time to time. Let's
treat each other well, give others the benefit of the doubt and
focus (pardon the word) our energy on what brung us here in the
first place which is analyzing and improving our art, making it the
best it can be.....and then better.

Humbly,

Fremiet
AVB (and all others who would vacate the forum over this issue)

First, no apology is required IMHO. I understood your intent.

Humans are so predictable. When this thread first started, anyone
with human psyche knowledge could have predicted this very outcome.
It started with a very noble intention... to defuse a growing
issue. Was the issue with fledglings, or, rather, with those who
have established themselves as icons within this forum and their
craft? The discussion quickly turned from "getting it out in the
open", to taking sides, to personal jabs, to accusations,
judgement,....anger. Totally predictable. We are all 7 year olds
at heart when it comes to this kind of thing. Easily hurt.

We are all victims of our human emotion, ego, and pride, but
especially those with accomplishments, who have worked hard at
their craft wear their emotion, ego, and pride way out on their
shirtsleeve. This has a devastating effect when artistic ethics
are questioned, insinuations are lobbed, intentions misinterpreted.

I completely understand how you can convince yourself that this is
the best course of action for you, and I really do respect that
only you can know what is best for you. However, please reconsider
your decision. Why? Because you are an important feature of this
forum. Your presence is a blessing to those of us (like me) who
gather knowledge from every tidbit of info or shot you post (and
others like you).

You have the power to overcome this, to deny your conflicting
emotion in favor of your love for this thing that you have become
so proficient at.

Put your work back in the Challenge, even if your heart is not in
it right now. This will be an important step toward starting the
healing process and getting back to the real issue... photography,
and creating the best work you can with the knowledge and resources
you have.
 

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