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PCI Express x1 Cards for EIDE support

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Vernon D Rainwater

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I have been reviewing available cards for use with PCI Express x1 slots on a new Motherboard. There appears to be cards for Firewire 400 and 800, USB 2.0, SATA, Serial, and Network server adapters, however; I have searched (using Google) and have not find card(s) for EIDE Atapi devices such as CD, DVD, and EIDE Hard Drives. Does anyone know of such a card available from any USA Vendor.

There are many cards for use with the PCI 32 bit/33 MHz slots, however; I would like to use the PCI-E (X1) slot(s)s so to NOT use up the available PCI 32 bit/33 MHz slots to allow for more versatile future expansion
--
Vernon...
 
currently FireWire phy or bridge - from TI - has problem. You cannot obtain full perforamnce via FireWire 800. The performance will drop down to 30Mb/s. TI is working on the new bridge, so your best bet now is still pci-x firewire card.
 
Newegg has a dual IDE/SATA card for PCI-E x1.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16816104001

I personally have banished all IDE and floppy ribbon cables from my new pc build. The optical drive is SATA and the floppy drive stays in a drawer elsewhere, only dragged out in emergencies when I can't figure out how to get a USB or optical media to do what I want.

Regards,
  • Cecil
 
linuxworks said:
what is your GOAL? to connect more ide drives?

why not use ide-> usb2.0 or ide-> sata and then connect using serial
protocols (usb, fw, esata).

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
Click to expand...
A good question. I should have included that in my initial post.

Most of the new Motherboards I have reviewed (except one) have only one Port for Atapi/EIDE drives. Many don't have any. Usually I would use it for Optical drive (or drives) -- perhaps a Combo CD/DVD +- RW but I like to have (2) a CDR and the combo CD/DVD +-RW drive.

However, even if only one Optical drive, I would NOT want to attach an EIDE Hard Drive to the same Controller --and-- I need at least 2 of the internal EIDE hard drives.

I have several (almost new) WD 320 Gb hard drives (best quality like those usually used in Servers) and want to install (2) two of these in the new computer system box and I plan to use an EIDE controller card that has 2 ports that will support 4 internal EIDE devices. Also, I would prefer to NOT use a PCI 32 Mh/32 bit slots for this purpose since I already have a need for 2 and possibly 3 of this type slots. I plan to also have 2 internal SATA hard drives in the box.

I also have several External EIDE Hard Drives (and also DVD Drive(s) in external enclosures with built in Power Supply, fan, etc; and I prefer to use Firewire 400 since I get better throughput (less time) by using Firewire than when using USB 2.0 even though USB 2.0 is rated at being faster 480 vs 400. My Firewire hard drives use around 80% of the time that the same function requires when using USB 2.0.

one of my Photo Printers use Firewire and the other 2 use USB 2.0. Also, the Laser Printer uses USB 2.0. My Scanner uses Firewire or USB 2.0.

This is getting too long -- in summary, I also want to allow for future enhancements and (of course) NOT use all the slots with the initial configuration.

--
Vernon...
 
Cecil Williams said:
Newegg has a dual IDE/SATA card for PCI-E x1.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16816104001

I personally have banished all IDE and floppy ribbon cables from my
new pc build. The optical drive is SATA and the floppy drive stays
in a drawer elsewhere, only dragged out in emergencies when I can't
figure out how to get a USB or optical media to do what I want.

Regards,
  • Cecil
Click to expand...
Cecil, thanks for the reference -- I obviously missed it this morning with my search criteria. I thought I looked at everything that Newegg offered but I didn't check anything Combo cards and none relating to SATA. The card would be a Minimum of present needs and would not have any option for later enhancement(s). Of course, as time progresses; there may be more cards become available and the price of that card is minimal.

I would like to use a card with 2 EIDE ports that could support 4 Atapi/Eide drives.
--
Vernon...
 
just a minor nit: but no one called that 'eide' anymore. in fact, eide (enhanced ide) was never a real name.

its properly called 'ata' (AT attachment). or, informally, just regular old 'ide'.

(there have been so many 'hacks' to the ata spec, calling one of them 'enhanced' is almost a bad joke, of sorts..)

back to the topic, I STILL think that going pci is not the best way. get rid of those ribbon wires! and don't clog your pci bus.

any ide drive (opto or HD) can be adapted to sata or usb or firewire.

seriously, you'd be better going serial than trying to revive that old parallel standard ;)

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
 
one more thing about serial: it allows hot plug! don't forget that. parallel ide cannot do that.

its VERY nice to have an opto drive on a usb cable. if I want the drive 'letter' there, I power on the drive, xp discovers it and I'm good to go. don't need it anymore? power down and the letter goes away.

minor benefit to this: when I run a dvd player on my pc, it ALWAYS (by force?) looks at the cdrom drive first. such a waste of time since I rip all my dvd's to hard drive. so before I run the dvd player, I remove the cdrom drive from the usb chain and - bingo! - no more 'searching for dvd' nonsense. faster program startup and less stuff 'on the bus', too.

same with drives. put the drive in an external bay and you can hot-plug.

hot-plug, alone, is enough to convince most people to dump parallel busses for serial.

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
 
linuxworks said:
one more thing about serial: it allows hot plug! don't forget
that. parallel ide cannot do that.

its VERY nice to have an opto drive on a usb cable. if I want the
drive 'letter' there, I power on the drive, xp discovers it and I'm
good to go. don't need it anymore? power down and the letter goes
away.

minor benefit to this: when I run a dvd player on my pc, it ALWAYS
(by force?) looks at the cdrom drive first. such a waste of time
since I rip all my dvd's to hard drive. so before I run the dvd
player, I remove the cdrom drive from the usb chain and - bingo! -
no more 'searching for dvd' nonsense. faster program startup and
less stuff 'on the bus', too.

same with drives. put the drive in an external bay and you can
hot-plug.

hot-plug, alone, is enough to convince most people to dump parallel
busses for serial.

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
Click to expand...
Bryan, does your computer not allow for defining the 1 st, 2nd, 3rd, etc Boot device sequence.
--
Vernon...
 
linuxworks said:
just a minor nit: but no one called that 'eide' anymore. in fact,
eide (enhanced ide) was never a real name.

its properly called 'ata' (AT attachment). or, informally, just
regular old 'ide'.

(there have been so many 'hacks' to the ata spec, calling one of
them 'enhanced' is almost a bad joke, of sorts..)

back to the topic, I STILL think that going pci is not the best
way. get rid of those ribbon wires! and don't clog your pci bus.

any ide drive (opto or HD) can be adapted to sata or usb or firewire.

seriously, you'd be better going serial than trying to revive that
old parallel standard ;)
Click to expand...
My interest is NOT to "hold on to" the previous (or older) controller & hard drive technology, instead; for another computer, I plan to use 2 new purchase internal SATA drives and the remaining (2 or 3) inside hard drives will be EIDE. WHY !! I have 5 or 6 NEW 320 Gb WD (their highest quality) EIDE drives available for use. I do NOT need that many for ADDED External drives that I use in Enclosures serviced by either 1394a Firewire 400 or USB 2.0. I already have 3 in use (using Firewire) and 2 off line -- in off site storage.

Hope this helps for understanding why I plan to use the rest of my presently owned EIDE drives.
linuxworks said:
--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
Click to expand...
In my opinion, you are not correct. When the faster (higher Transfer rate) IDE controllers and Hard Drives were developed, and were the choice (due to increased speed) THEN, is when the IDE Hard Drives and Controllers started being identified as EIDE -- for "Enhanced" meaning better/faster.

Of course, the name is insignificant as long as others know what is being discussed. Look at the Hard Drives offered by type (such as at Newegg) and what I am describing is obvious. As you mentioned, the question may be exactly (how much and in what way) were they Enhanced or advanced.

Also, controller cards usually refer to this terminology, however; since the same controllers may also be used with CD, DVD, etc, devices -- they get the "tag along" nomenclature of Atapi.

As already mentioned -- this is of NO importance -- as long as all concerned know what is being discussed.

I appreciate your comments and please don't take this post to insinuate any type of problems (or device naming contest) for me....

Again, My original inquiry regarding using the PCI-E 1x slot is to try to NOT use up the normal PCI slots which are (or will be) needed for other device support....
Thanks again for your posts....
--
Vernon...
 
Vernon D Rainwater said:
Bryan, does your computer not allow for defining the 1 st, 2nd,
3rd, etc Boot device sequence.
Click to expand...
yes, it does. the boot order was not my issue. I wanted to DYNAMICALLY (hot plug) remove the cd or dvd drive if its not being used. if its an active drive letter, the dvd player software WILL try to access it, even if there is no disc in the tray. it slows the startup time down. undesirable to me...

so by having the ability to hot-remove the drive, I have more control over my pc.

I find that hot-pluggable entities are always better than statically-connected (ie, ALL ide drives) types.

saving pci slots is a good thing. yes, if you have to, burn one of those 'narrow and mostly useless' slots ;)

all I'm saying is that instead of interfacing your 40pin drives with a flat cable, interface the 40pin header to something serial (fw, sata, usb) and then not only is it equivalent to what you would have had if purely parallel, but you also get hot plug and unplug ability. I just find that too useful to NOT use!

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
 
linuxworks said:
Vernon D Rainwater said:
Bryan, does your computer not allow for defining the 1 st, 2nd,
3rd, etc Boot device sequence.
Click to expand...
yes, it does. the boot order was not my issue. I wanted to
DYNAMICALLY (hot plug) remove the cd or dvd drive if its not being
used. if its an active drive letter, the dvd player software WILL
try to access it, even if there is no disc in the tray. it slows
the startup time down. undesirable to me...

so by having the ability to hot-remove the drive, I have more
control over my pc.

I find that hot-pluggable entities are always better than
statically-connected (ie, ALL ide drives) types.

saving pci slots is a good thing. yes, if you have to, burn one of
those 'narrow and mostly useless' slots ;)
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, it seems that they are easily "burned" and all be used rather quickly, even for Motherboards that support 3 of the "old time" slower PCI slots. Seems many boards only have 2 PCI 32 Mh/32 bit slots. Maybe, I need a "fire extinguisher" but it would probably ALSO need one of these PCI slots-- [Grin]....
linuxworks said:
all I'm saying is that instead of interfacing your 40pin drives
with a flat cable, interface the 40pin header to something serial
(fw, sata, usb) and then not only is it equivalent to what you
would have had if purely parallel, but you also get hot plug and
unplug ability. I just find that too useful to NOT use!
Click to expand...
Your above comment is interesting and could potentially be helpful for what I want to accomplish. However; I do NOT want to use any of my active "working Hard Drives" as external, - either Firewire or USB 2.0; since the speed of my present internal hard drives connected to the integrated HD controller on the MB -- and to the added Promise EIDE card plugged in a PCI slot, is MUCH faster than the external drives using Firewire. The speed difference is VERY significant. I am very interested in your comment and suggestion -- so:

Would you provide some added information on what method and/or device(s) would be used to accomplish this.

Perhaps you may have link reference to any needed device(s). I am NOT too lazy to look for this -- it is just that I do NOT know what I am looking for. I only know what I want to accomplish and** at the present time, using a PCI card is my only known method -- and it does NOT provide for "hot plugging" and disconnect, when not in use as you have discussed.
I will appreciate any help you may provide....
linuxworks said:
--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
Click to expand...
--
Vernon...
 
maybe you are thinking that to convert 40pin ide to serial means making it EXTERNAL?

that just is not so!

see this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822998001

stick that sucker on your drive (or maybe opto drive, but more guaranteed for disks) and it gives out SATA on the other end ;)

that does the ide-> sata conversion. there are similar things that will convert 40pin ide to usb2.0, for example, and you DO have usb2.0 on your motherboard for 'internal' use. you don't have to run cables inside to outside your box, usually, just to run 'internal usb2.0 devices'.

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
 
linuxworks said:
maybe you are thinking that to convert 40pin ide to serial means
making it EXTERNAL?

that just is not so!

see this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822998001

stick that sucker on your drive (or maybe opto drive, but more
guaranteed for disks) and it gives out SATA on the other end ;)

that does the ide-> sata conversion. there are similar things that
will convert 40pin ide to usb2.0, for example, and you DO have
usb2.0 on your motherboard for 'internal' use. you don't have to
run cables inside to outside your box, usually, just to run
'internal usb2.0 devices'.

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
Click to expand...
After my last post, I Googled for -- SATA to EIDE Converter -- and there were several references. I then looked at Newegg and they have that type device listed. I have not (yet) checked the spec's but will do so since this is (I believe) what you are referring to.
Then, when I returned to DpReview, I read your comment and link reference.

I believe you have me "headed in the proper direction". Many thanks, I will go back and fully review all I find as well as the link you provided....

--
Vernon...
 
linuxworks said:
and yes, I get what you refer to by a shortage of old style 32bit
pci slots.

I had to look HARD to find a modern intel mobo with 3 slots and
most had only 2 traditional 32bit pci slots.

such a shame. pci is just NOT ready for retirement yet!

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
Click to expand...
You have been very helpful and provided another option for using my supply of EIDE hard drives and (hopefully) NOT using all the PCI slots.

You are correct, there are very few MB's with 3 PCI slots. Also, few with the previous technology connections such as the OLD Floppy controller, parallel connector, etc; integrated in the MB -- this being understandable. Of course, the entire user base will NOT convert "over night" to the latest technology devices.

I have been "deeply" involved in the computer industry since 1952 so (believe me) I have seen and lived through many changes. Since retirement, I have tried to "stay out of the details" and have for the past 3 years, but it seems impossible continue to be "un-involved".

Regarding the SATA to EIDE (PATA) converters: I have read many user comments and as you would know, doing so requires using our "Mental Filter" to try to identify facts from fiction (or in-experience), however; there were several comments regarding -- Slower speed, larger load on CPU usage, system freeze, slow recognition (which was probably incorrect type selection for Master, cable select, etc), uses Floppy power connection which is NOT a problem, device quit working after a short period of time, etc-etc-etc....

The devices are not expensive and if they work (when properly installed) and hopefully don't operate slower than -- for example -- when connected to a normal PCI card, etc -- then I really see no problem or critical concern for trying to use this type of device. After all, I expect a similar device to convert USB 2.0 and Firewire 400 to control external EIDE Hard drives are basically the same principal-- and I have NO problems with those units in my external enclosures..
Thanks for all your help.
--
Vernon...
 
to be honest, on higher system load, the usb and firewire protocols seem to have timeout problems!

in xp, you can see a 'yellow triangle' in the tray saying 'oops, our driver dropped its brain. sorry. you lose.'

you never EVER see that in a pure sata or parallel ide connection.

I use fw and usb for short haul short duration things. I don't ever DEPEND on usb or fw for disk i/o. fw is great for camera timed packet one-direction (mostly) i/o. great for that. usb is great for short bursty non-time critical things. neither is great for mission critical disk i/o, imho.

I trust parallel ide and lately, I trust sata. I trust e-sata less, however. its more cable critical (it seems). stick to regular sata and you'll be fine.

I have some of those ide-> sata dongles (those clear plastic ones) but I have not put them thru a stress test yet. casually, they seem to work - but I have not lived with them in a system for long periods of time.

I've had some reasonably good success with a 'cypress chipset' ide-> usb2.0 adapter. if you find some small adapter or board that is cypress (internally) that has a good chance of avoiding the yellow triangle monster ;)

(I've been in computers a while, myself; but you have me beat by a few years ;) I started with a z80 in 1980 and my first 'big box' was a decsystem-20 at the local college, also around that time. that was when you could easily confuse a disk drive with a washing machine...)

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~
 
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