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Had a quote turned down, feeling bad about it :(

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owenb

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Hi folks,

Well, I'm on the verge of watching a really sweet paid professional job slip through my fingers and I'm really pretty sad and annoyed about it.

I'm a freelance camera operator but have recently been getting paid pro rates (ish) to do photography jobs here and there too. Why does everyone expect photography work for absolutely b*gger all??

A company I used to work for many years ago contacted me when they found out I was now a photographer (amongst other things) and asked me to quote them for a job they had in mind. It was to shoot the development of a brand new building that they're moving to in the centre of London, so they could post a new set of updated images on a secret website every week, for their clients to log into and view. Hence one day a week of shooting, half a day at least of cherrypicking, processing and submitting to their servers.

They then wanted me to take all the new shots of the finished building for their new website.

They wanted all the copyright. I said no on that one, which they didn't understand ("But, we're paying you to do it and it's our building, so why don't we get the copyright?") but I explained it gently and pointed them to the UK Copyright website to back me up. I said I'd do them an indefinite license, and if they were worried about the images being used elsewhere, I'd also write an exclusivity license into it as well, so it would be as good as copyright, but I would keep the copyright. All that would mean would be that they could never SELL the images on to someone, and it would allow me to display the images on my own site as part of my body of work.

Anyway, after much asking in vain for an idea of their budget and their refusal to actually give me one (for various reasons all of which seemed legit but frustrating), I called a lot of pro photographers of different calibres and I ended up quoting, all in, £750 per 1 shooting day+up to 1 editing/submission day+up to 20 images per day+indefinite exclusive license to print them in brochures, give to magazines, use on their websites, etc etc etc. I told them it was frustrating not knowing their budget, but that this was my initial quote and if they needed to negotiate or discuss, they were very welcome to call me on my mobile because it's much easier than emailing.

They've ignored my two phone calls since then, 17 days ago, and only today actually answered an email and said that they had no idea photography cost that much and that they thought it was well out of their budget but they'd get back to me.

Did I massively overprice myself for a first, negotiable quote?

Should I get used to this feeling of having done myself out of a job because people expect photographs to cost peanuts, or should I lower my quotes?

Owen
--
http://www.owenbillcliffe.co.uk
http://www.myglasseye.net
 
and there are the clients you dont. It's tough sticking firm to that pjilosophy while low on the totem pole. It's like walking into a posh hair salon and wanting a cut for half price. There's various markets for various clients. Which market are you after with your price?
 
The way I see it, I cannot see it being overpriced. just that your potential client had simply ignore the fact that PRO calibrated service do cost and they probably never budget for such. If they were to goto a PRO company for the job, they would have been charged by the hour and they can expect that to run into much higher cost indeed.

Yes, its frustrating, and its not new. Even back in film days; the trend had already begun, clients no longer budget properly and think they can have service of first grade calibre but paying Wal-Mart price !!

Should we feel bad about it, yes, not for the fact that we lost business ( since these guy didn'e even go to the length to check proper budget and market price, they are not going to pay up for the need anyway ) but for the fact that the market is so going ..

--
  • Franka -
 
On almost all larger commercial work..... do the first meeting and
sketch the needs. Explain the possible ways to accomplish the job.
Then, have the client write a work order called Scope of Work. Client
should give you a list of each phase of the job and the final use of said
work. You counter with your estimate and added features and a final
meeting of approval is scheduled. It is back and forth until finalized
and the entire workflow is know by each party.

People rush to fast into the meetings and don't define the possible
outcomes, workflow and final needs. I have to assume that happened
here and the client did not know how extensive the work could be nor
all the possible ways to accomplish the work.

It is not that you overpriced yourself, it is that you did not insist on
a Scope of Word and/or a walk-through of the location with the
person in control of the project. Not enough ideas and communication
were give the client to make the decision. Nor were enough benefits
for your work. You centered the communications on YOUR needs, not
theirs.

That is just marketing 101. Don't put horse before cart.
owenb said:
Hi folks,

Well, I'm on the verge of watching a really sweet paid professional
job slip through my fingers and I'm really pretty sad and annoyed
about it.

I'm a freelance camera operator but have recently been getting paid
pro rates (ish) to do photography jobs here and there too. Why does
everyone expect photography work for absolutely b*gger all??

A company I used to work for many years ago contacted me when they
found out I was now a photographer (amongst other things) and asked
me to quote them for a job they had in mind. It was to shoot the
development of a brand new building that they're moving to in the
centre of London, so they could post a new set of updated images on
a secret website every week, for their clients to log into and
view. Hence one day a week of shooting, half a day at least of
cherrypicking, processing and submitting to their servers.

They then wanted me to take all the new shots of the finished
building for their new website.

They wanted all the copyright. I said no on that one, which they
didn't understand ("But, we're paying you to do it and it's our
building, so why don't we get the copyright?") but I explained it
gently and pointed them to the UK Copyright website to back me up.
I said I'd do them an indefinite license, and if they were worried
about the images being used elsewhere, I'd also write an
exclusivity license into it as well, so it would be as good as
copyright, but I would keep the copyright. All that would mean
would be that they could never SELL the images on to someone, and
it would allow me to display the images on my own site as part of
my body of work.

Anyway, after much asking in vain for an idea of their budget and
their refusal to actually give me one (for various reasons all of
which seemed legit but frustrating), I called a lot of pro
photographers of different calibres and I ended up quoting, all in,
£750 per 1 shooting day+up to 1 editing/submission day+up to 20
images per day+indefinite exclusive license to print them in
brochures, give to magazines, use on their websites, etc etc etc. I
told them it was frustrating not knowing their budget, but that
this was my initial quote and if they needed to negotiate or
discuss, they were very welcome to call me on my mobile because
it's much easier than emailing.

They've ignored my two phone calls since then, 17 days ago, and
only today actually answered an email and said that they had no
idea photography cost that much and that they thought it was well
out of their budget but they'd get back to me.

Did I massively overprice myself for a first, negotiable quote?

Should I get used to this feeling of having done myself out of a
job because people expect photographs to cost peanuts, or should I
lower my quotes?

Owen
--
http://www.owenbillcliffe.co.uk
http://www.myglasseye.net
Click to expand...
 
Reading the description of the job, I honestly think that you likely overpriced it. This doesn't mean that YOU should have charged less, but that the job itself was worth less. Since they want photos taken as often as they do, I suspect that they have in mind more of a documentary (a bit better than snapshots but not necessarily much) of how the site is progressing for their clients. Honestly, I seriously doubt that this will bring them any near £750 per week from added sales (of whatever sort) so it would be a money looser for them.

Not saying that you should lower your rate. You decide what your time is worth. They decide what the job is worth. IF b is more than a, you get the job. If not, you don't. Some jobs aren't worth enough to pay a decent photographer.

DIPics
owenb said:
Hi folks,

Well, I'm on the verge of watching a really sweet paid professional
job slip through my fingers and I'm really pretty sad and annoyed
about it.

I'm a freelance camera operator but have recently been getting paid
pro rates (ish) to do photography jobs here and there too. Why does
everyone expect photography work for absolutely b*gger all??

A company I used to work for many years ago contacted me when they
found out I was now a photographer (amongst other things) and asked
me to quote them for a job they had in mind. It was to shoot the
development of a brand new building that they're moving to in the
centre of London, so they could post a new set of updated images on
a secret website every week, for their clients to log into and
view. Hence one day a week of shooting, half a day at least of
cherrypicking, processing and submitting to their servers.

They then wanted me to take all the new shots of the finished
building for their new website.

They wanted all the copyright. I said no on that one, which they
didn't understand ("But, we're paying you to do it and it's our
building, so why don't we get the copyright?") but I explained it
gently and pointed them to the UK Copyright website to back me up.
I said I'd do them an indefinite license, and if they were worried
about the images being used elsewhere, I'd also write an
exclusivity license into it as well, so it would be as good as
copyright, but I would keep the copyright. All that would mean
would be that they could never SELL the images on to someone, and
it would allow me to display the images on my own site as part of
my body of work.

Anyway, after much asking in vain for an idea of their budget and
their refusal to actually give me one (for various reasons all of
which seemed legit but frustrating), I called a lot of pro
photographers of different calibres and I ended up quoting, all in,
£750 per 1 shooting day+up to 1 editing/submission day+up to 20
images per day+indefinite exclusive license to print them in
brochures, give to magazines, use on their websites, etc etc etc. I
told them it was frustrating not knowing their budget, but that
this was my initial quote and if they needed to negotiate or
discuss, they were very welcome to call me on my mobile because
it's much easier than emailing.

They've ignored my two phone calls since then, 17 days ago, and
only today actually answered an email and said that they had no
idea photography cost that much and that they thought it was well
out of their budget but they'd get back to me.

Did I massively overprice myself for a first, negotiable quote?

Should I get used to this feeling of having done myself out of a
job because people expect photographs to cost peanuts, or should I
lower my quotes?

Owen
--
http://www.owenbillcliffe.co.uk
http://www.myglasseye.net
Click to expand...
 
I'd have probably done it for about that for the first day. You have tofind you the system with their IT guys / web designers, have to have a meeting about what they want content and style wise etc etc, its all time.

Once thats set up I'd have dropped the rate considerably for other days, there is less work once you are into it.
Then again, I don't live in London.

Andrew
 
Han Solo said:
and there are the clients you dont. It's tough sticking firm to
that pjilosophy while low on the totem pole. It's like walking
into a posh hair salon and wanting a cut for half price. There's
various markets for various clients. Which market are you after
with your price?
Click to expand...
Ahem..... don't you really want all clients? The trick is to turn them
into 'good' clients. Granted, don't knock your head against the wall
for too long. As good as that can feel, it is better for you to stop.

I think these clients were under sold. They had a need and were
seeking results. That combo is worth a knock or two against the wall.
 
I tend to agree with all of this actually, both sides of the coin. I don't think they needed to pay as much as I would have charged (my actually lowest rate I would have gone to is a good £300 lower than what I quoted for, had I been asked to lower it).

I did go through the requirements of the job many times with them in various emails, and explained what would be required. As soon as they said to me "hang on, what do you mean YOU retain the copyright?" I knew I would have to explain everything.

I met with them and we discussed what they wanted - creative, artistic, stylish shots of their shell of a building being put together into the lush media workhorse it will be in a few months - and what they then wanted for their final website imagery. I told them in emails how much time it would take - one day of shooting, and then the time to put the images from each day onto my own website for them to view and select the ones they wanted, then time to process them into B&W, provide various sizes, burn to DVD, then email small shots and post the hi res DVD. I explained that a license for all the use of the images had to be added onto the daily rate - they pushed that price up by getting antsy about not having copyright and needing a license to cover that need.

The fact is the quote was so high because:

a) they're an extremely high profile London-based post-production company

b) they never gave me an indication of their budget despite repeated requests for it

c) they wanted a license to exclusivity indefinitely, in all media foreseeable to publicise their company.

I've done jobs for much less, but the flow of communication and needs was much clearer. The very fact they didn't understand how copyright law works wasn't a good sign, I guess!
 
This is great advice, Owen. I often get asked to shoot stuff for friends or church-related events. Most times I don't mind doing stuff for free, but then there are the occassions when someone will ask for an inordinate amount of work and not mention anything about payment. Now I have a concrete plan way to show them how much work photography shoots can be.
 
AperturePro said:
Han Solo said:
and there are the clients you dont. It's tough sticking firm to
that pjilosophy while low on the totem pole. It's like walking
into a posh hair salon and wanting a cut for half price. There's
various markets for various clients. Which market are you after
with your price?
Click to expand...
Ahem..... don't you really want all clients? The trick is to turn them
into 'good' clients. Granted, don't knock your head against the wall
for too long. As good as that can feel, it is better for you to stop.

I think these clients were under sold. They had a need and were
seeking results. That combo is worth a knock or two against the wall.
Click to expand...
Well, personally I DON'T want all clients. I have ended relationships with quite a few over the years that weren't worth the money that they brought in. Sure, I want all of the "good" clients but reality means that there are some clients that will never be "good" clients.

And, this job, I honestly think that the client just wanted some shots of his building going up for what is likely a blog type portion of a website. I suspect that no matter what they would pay for a photographer, it would never pay for itself in added revenue by any measure. This generally means that the budget for a job like this is next to nothing. Now, I could be absolutely wrong about the job but that is my first impression. Better communication with the client about expectations, especially what they thought the benefit to them from the photos would be, should have preceeded the bid.

DIPics
 
Well, there are more jobs out there. :)

Good luck with it.

DIPics
owenb said:
I tend to agree with all of this actually, both sides of the coin.
I don't think they needed to pay as much as I would have charged
(my actually lowest rate I would have gone to is a good £300 lower
than what I quoted for, had I been asked to lower it).

I did go through the requirements of the job many times with them
in various emails, and explained what would be required. As soon as
they said to me "hang on, what do you mean YOU retain the
copyright?" I knew I would have to explain everything.

I met with them and we discussed what they wanted - creative,
artistic, stylish shots of their shell of a building being put
together into the lush media workhorse it will be in a few months -
and what they then wanted for their final website imagery. I told
them in emails how much time it would take - one day of shooting,
and then the time to put the images from each day onto my own
website for them to view and select the ones they wanted, then time
to process them into B&W, provide various sizes, burn to DVD, then
email small shots and post the hi res DVD. I explained that a
license for all the use of the images had to be added onto the
daily rate - they pushed that price up by getting antsy about not
having copyright and needing a license to cover that need.

The fact is the quote was so high because:

a) they're an extremely high profile London-based post-production
company
b) they never gave me an indication of their budget despite
repeated requests for it
c) they wanted a license to exclusivity indefinitely, in all media
foreseeable to publicise their company.

I've done jobs for much less, but the flow of communication and
needs was much clearer. The very fact they didn't understand how
copyright law works wasn't a good sign, I guess!
Click to expand...
 
Dipics - I'm confused. It's all very well to say there should have been better communication with the client about what value the construction pics had to them, but the fact is that even if I only charged for my time, we're talking about a minimum of £350 for a days work.

Even if all I did was turn up, shoot some shots of their building, go home, then spend a couple of hours to whack a nice B&W conversion over all off them in PS, then send them what I considered to be the best of the bunch, that's still £350 right there, not including what by rights I should really charge for this "We Want Them Forever" license.

I don't really care how much use they get from them - I asked time and again why they wanted the copyright - what use did they have in mind that made them want copyright - how do you envisage using the images in the future - etc etc and they barely ever replied beyond "Why don't we get the copyright anyway?". I asked for a budget time and again so that I could put together an appropriate fee based on how much they could afford and that would impact on the workflow. But no. Nothing.

--
http://www.owenbillcliffe.co.uk
http://www.myglasseye.net
 
Owen-

As a professional, I know that only about 60% of what I quote ends up as a finished job. Don't get too attached to any one job or client-they come and go.

For clients that have a limited understanding of pricing usage, it is often good to break down pricing by use. Starting with the creative fee, and then pricing usage for 1 year/5 year/unlimited/exclusive/copyright transfer options will help them find the right budget point without you having to lower your prices. For most corporate clients, I would consider copyright transfer if you get portfolio rights-what the client needs to understand is that they probably do not want to afford it.

Another thing to understand is that your portfolio is your best sales tool. if you cant show great sample pictures in the style the client wants, they are unlikely to see the high value in your work.

Lastly, poor communicators rarely make good clients.

Good Luck-
Scott
owenb said:
Hi folks,

Well, I'm on the verge of watching a really sweet paid professional
job slip through my fingers and I'm really pretty sad and annoyed
about it.

I'm a freelance camera operator but have recently been getting paid
pro rates (ish) to do photography jobs here and there too. Why does
everyone expect photography work for absolutely b*gger all??

A company I used to work for many years ago contacted me when they
found out I was now a photographer (amongst other things) and asked
me to quote them for a job they had in mind. It was to shoot the
development of a brand new building that they're moving to in the
centre of London, so they could post a new set of updated images on
a secret website every week, for their clients to log into and
view. Hence one day a week of shooting, half a day at least of
cherrypicking, processing and submitting to their servers.

They then wanted me to take all the new shots of the finished
building for their new website.

They wanted all the copyright. I said no on that one, which they
didn't understand ("But, we're paying you to do it and it's our
building, so why don't we get the copyright?") but I explained it
gently and pointed them to the UK Copyright website to back me up.
I said I'd do them an indefinite license, and if they were worried
about the images being used elsewhere, I'd also write an
exclusivity license into it as well, so it would be as good as
copyright, but I would keep the copyright. All that would mean
would be that they could never SELL the images on to someone, and
it would allow me to display the images on my own site as part of
my body of work.

Anyway, after much asking in vain for an idea of their budget and
their refusal to actually give me one (for various reasons all of
which seemed legit but frustrating), I called a lot of pro
photographers of different calibres and I ended up quoting, all in,
£750 per 1 shooting day+up to 1 editing/submission day+up to 20
images per day+indefinite exclusive license to print them in
brochures, give to magazines, use on their websites, etc etc etc. I
told them it was frustrating not knowing their budget, but that
this was my initial quote and if they needed to negotiate or
discuss, they were very welcome to call me on my mobile because
it's much easier than emailing.

They've ignored my two phone calls since then, 17 days ago, and
only today actually answered an email and said that they had no
idea photography cost that much and that they thought it was well
out of their budget but they'd get back to me.

Did I massively overprice myself for a first, negotiable quote?

Should I get used to this feeling of having done myself out of a
job because people expect photographs to cost peanuts, or should I
lower my quotes?

Owen
--
http://www.owenbillcliffe.co.uk
http://www.myglasseye.net
Click to expand...
 
owenb said:
They wanted all the copyright. I said no on that one, which they
didn't understand ("But, we're paying you to do it and it's our
building, so why don't we get the copyright?") but I explained it
gently and pointed them to the UK Copyright website to back me up.
I said I'd do them an indefinite license, and if they were worried
about the images being used elsewhere, I'd also write an
exclusivity license into it as well, so it would be as good as
copyright, but I would keep the copyright. All that would mean
would be that they could never SELL the images on to someone, and
it would allow me to display the images on my own site as part of
my body of work.
Click to expand...
Why not sell them the copyright, but retain an indefinite license for you to use the images yourself to promote your own work? That's the only use you will have for them in the future, right? The result wouldn't be any different than the arrangement you present here, but it would make them happy. If a client wants to call a rose by any other name, nod your head and take their money.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hicsuget/
 
You're absolutely right. Which is why I said that there needed to be better communication. It is by this communication (statement of work and a good sit down or two) that you get a good feel for what the work is worth to them and what they expect from you. If you find that there is a disparity between what the work is worth to them (often it boils down to what income boost (or savings) they think they will get from the work) and what you are willing to charge to make it worth your while.

You DO (or at least should) care about the use the clients get out of the photos. It is usually the determining factor in what they think the photo is worth. Will it be a nationwide advertising motif for them for the next decade? Or will it be on an internal training website? Both might cost you the same to shoot, but they are NOT worth the same to the client.

Even if finding out this information doesn't lead you to letting them down easily on their expectations, it may at least lessen the blow when they decide you cost too much. What it likely will NOT do is get you the job in a situation like this.

In other words, they wanted to buy a steak. Clients always do. Their budget was for a hamburger. You are a steakhouse that doesn't sell hamburgers, they can't afford (in their eyes) even a decent New York Strip, only a double-quarter pounder and maybe they can be talked into fries.

If you understood this before you put in your bid, you would at least not have been very dissapointed when it didn't pan out.

DIPics
owenb said:
Dipics - I'm confused. It's all very well to say there should have
been better communication with the client about what value the
construction pics had to them, but the fact is that even if I only
charged for my time, we're talking about a minimum of £350 for a
days work.

Even if all I did was turn up, shoot some shots of their building,
go home, then spend a couple of hours to whack a nice B&W
conversion over all off them in PS, then send them what I
considered to be the best of the bunch, that's still £350 right
there, not including what by rights I should really charge for this
"We Want Them Forever" license.

I don't really care how much use they get from them - I asked time
and again why they wanted the copyright - what use did they have in
mind that made them want copyright - how do you envisage using the
images in the future - etc etc and they barely ever replied beyond
"Why don't we get the copyright anyway?". I asked for a budget time
and again so that I could put together an appropriate fee based on
how much they could afford and that would impact on the workflow.
But no. Nothing.

--
http://www.owenbillcliffe.co.uk
http://www.myglasseye.net
Click to expand...
 
owenb said:
........................................snip....................even if I only
charged for my time, we're talking about a minimum of £350 for a
days work.

.................snip.....................not including what by rights I should really charge for this
"We Want Them Forever" license.

I don't really care how much use they get from them - I asked time
and again why they wanted the copyright - what use did they have in
mind that made them want copyright - how do you envisage using the
images in the future - etc etc and they barely ever replied beyond
"Why don't we get the copyright anyway?". I asked for a budget time
and again so that I could put together an appropriate fee based on
how much they could afford and that would impact on the workflow.
But no. Nothing.
Click to expand...
Im sorry but building a "showcase" building in the centre of London costs a FORTUNE. 1000$ is a mere speck in that budget.

Your bid was not overpriced but your clients were trying to get something for nothing, who did they get in the end?
My guess is someone they could pressure to "work for hire" very cheaply.

williamwgood dot com
 
For Corporate clients, I sell them the images and the copyright. What would I do with images only they can use? If the company gave you constant business, I would have complied with their request for the copyright.
 
The issue here is:

When does a job require a "Photographer" and when will it sufice to send the guy in the IT department to go click off images with the Nikon Coolpix.

The customer was looking for images which would track construction progress on a job so that other people involved in the project wouldn't have to visit the site to see how things were progressing.

This isn't "Photographer" work and it wont bring in "Photographer" pay.

From a business standpoint, anything over $200(US) would have been a deal killer.
 
dipics said:
AperturePro said:
Ahem..... don't you really want all clients? The trick is to turn them
into 'good' clients. Granted, don't knock your head against the wall
for too long. As good as that can feel, it is better for you to stop.
Click to expand...
Well, personally I DON'T want all clients. I have ended
relationships with quite a few over the years that weren't worth
the money that they brought in. Sure, I want all of the "good"
clients but reality means that there are some clients that will
never be "good" clients.

DIPics
Click to expand...
THAT is something all good business people learn. Though I've never owned a photography business, in all businesses, there are some customers that you'll never make happy and/or that are such high maintenance that YOUR business would be much better off if they went to a competitor and monopolized HIS time.

George
 
Well, in an ideal world, you'd want to be able to take in all clients. However, there's only one of you, and it's not like you can outsource your work as a photographer.

There are clients out there that will make life difficult for you and then just decide to gather the information they need to know how to negotiate with the next photographer. That is the unfortunate truth. As a wedding photographer I see this all the time because a client will ask me things and then go to my friend's studio to work on him using my knowledge to try and get the best deal.

Certain clients value photography and are willing to have you put all your energy into giving them your best work. Other clients thinks you're making money out of a click of a shutter and dont want to pay you for "just clicking a button" But they'll get back to you if they see your work for another client (who invested much more into their package) shows better quality their what they paid.

If I didnt have bills to pay and there's clones of me everywhere, sure I'd love to take the time and make every potential client my client. The most polite thing to do is to suggest them to try something else that best suits their needs and budget.
 
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