D60 - Who cares ?!?

Not a canon user (... a passing E10 owner) but this forum is little different from all the others in this respect. If you primarily want to see top class work and aren't that bothered by the equipment side you can do a google search for "fine art photography" - there's a fantastic amount of truly beautiful work out there.

Nontheless, the forums are still an excellent resource for talking and sharing with others, for picking up tips and (it has to be said) for simple entertainment value. True there are too many flame wars and too many petty arguments but that's life I suppose and you can always try and ignore them.

I think Steve's Digicams has got somewhat the right idea to encourage the photographer as opposed to the gadget freak with his Photo of the Day. Maybe we can encourage Phil to do something similar...

Jack A. Zucker said:

I've kept quiet this long but I'm going to say something now. Not
that I'm any great photographer or anything but...

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots. I wonder how many of you folks
have maxed out the existing technology before jumping onto a new
equipment bandwagon. Somehow I don't think many of us have reached
the point where the image quality is holding us back.

Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better
autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still
struggling with exposure and composition...

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's my $0.02

Jaz
--
http://www.jackzucker.com

Click to expand...

Bob, congratulations on your picture, looks great. I agree with Karlg that the camera will be focusing at infinity at 2000-3000ft. Try an experiment
focusing on buildings at that range and see if the autofocus moves.

I don't have an IS lens, I would be interested to hear how IS and non-IS compares. How does it work anyway ? Does it compensate for camera shake regardless of the subject; or compensate for motion of the subject ?

Bob said:

Karlg said:

I'm with you most of the way, but I don't think you would have had
a DoF problem no matter what you did. The jets had to be near to
or beyond the Hyperfocal distance (about 1000 Feet with a D30 at
135mm at F5.6) so the DoF would have been huge even wide open.
Bob wrote:

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Brian

As I said above, if you want some harsh cristisism, go to Photonet! they'll rip you to shreads!

The reason you get few critiques is that it takes a certain sort of anally retentive berk to want to take someones pictures to bits (unless he does it for a living, then he's a comercially justified, anally retentive berk) If you look at postings of people who take reasonable pictures, they get plenty of praise, its easy to praise, but as a race, we are not motivated to criticise!

Brian Hansen said:

Jack A. Zucker said:

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots.

Click to expand...

The reason the majority of pics posted here are snapshots is when you
do post a photo you want critiqued, no one replies. I don't have a
lot
of options for critique. My friends and coworkers are not photogs.
My wife could care less - Investment Banker... Because I am fairly
new to this, I haven't met many photographers in Milwaukee. The
only way for me to learn from my photos is posting to forums. This
is the one I trust the most. Except that has been challenged
lately with
the D60 rumor BS. I feel I could become a much better photographer
with some good strong critiques. I know I could post in the gallery
forum, but I want opinions from D30 owners. With this being the most
visited D30 forum on the net - it is the most likely place to post
pics you
want critiqued by D30 owners. When you do - you get 4 replies from
mostly people that have the same amount of experience as you have.

What does it take to get your photos critiqued - strongly I might add
without thinking it will hurt someones thin feelings. Realize that
the
person posting is doing it to understand what they are doing wrong
and at the same time - what they are doing right. You can read all
the books and educational websites but there is nothing like some good
strong critisism to learn how to do something from people that know
what they're talking about.

I still believe most of the threads in this forum are started by
people
who want to see how many replies they can get (can you say Trolls).
OR by people who don't know how or are too lazy to search.

My sixth sense,
Brian Hansen

Click to expand...

--Neil http://www.neilbuchangrant.co.uk

Hi All,

the thing is that no matter which equipment you're using, the last issue remains is the photo composition and nothing else.

So why bothering such question like when does the D60 available, what kind of specs it is going to have etc. etc...

The answer is: the digital photography has eperienced -similar the computer technology- a kind of revolution: in a very short time new products are coming up. If you want to be updated all the time you need to be a milionaire to stay on the train.

For most of us I think money is a big issue and we can not afford to follow the trend anytime when a new camera is released. Recent example is the 1D which is not affordable for 90% of us in this forum.

Jack A. Zucker said:

I've kept quiet this long but I'm going to say something now. Not
that I'm any great photographer or anything but...

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots. I wonder how many of you folks
have maxed out the existing technology before jumping onto a new
equipment bandwagon. Somehow I don't think many of us have reached
the point where the image quality is holding us back.

Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better
autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still
struggling with exposure and composition...

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's my $0.02

Jaz
--
http://www.jackzucker.com

Click to expand...

--Anthony

Iain West said:

Bob, congratulations on your picture, looks great. I agree with
Karlg that the camera will be focusing at infinity at 2000-3000ft.
Try an experiment
focusing on buildings at that range and see if the autofocus moves.

I don't have an IS lens, I would be interested to hear how IS and
non-IS compares. How does it work anyway ? Does it compensate for
camera shake regardless of the subject; or compensate for motion of
the subject ?

Click to expand...

It cannot compensate for subject movement, only the vibration-type motion of camera shake - which it does pretty effectively. It is limited at what it can damp out - the manuals state that it is not likely to be effetcive in, for example, a moving car.

I presume that it has some form of physical motion detector, hence the inability to deal with moving subjects.

KRs
Chris

Two points.

1) in many ways the D30 does match or exceed film.

2) I am not sure what EOS film camera you use, but the D60 will probably still have consumer body AF performance.

Perhaps you should do waht a freind of mine did. He bought a D30 refrub and is waiting a year or two for the 1D price to decline.

Allan Rossmore said:

I am in the same boat as he is. I have Canon EOS film cameras and a
number of lenses, including several "L" lenses, and I want to learn
more about digital. I find it exciting in its possibilities, but I
am not ready either to buy a camera that does not yet match film
(D30) or one that will bankrupt me (1D). I use scanners to digitize
my work now. I mostly do it for enjoyment but have made signiicant
sales which have paid for some of my equipment.Also, if I am going
to spring for $3,000 for a camera, then I want to be SURE that its
autofocus will do what I need to do, as my work is primarily
aviation action photography, where aircraft are moving at very high
speeds. At present, my film cameras will follow focus these
subjects. Fromm what I have heard, I could not be sure that the D30
could do this. Let's see what the next generation after the D30
will do.

Allan Rossmore

Blake Stone said:

You're assuming that everyone here already has a D30, which is
likely far from the truth. I started to research digital SLR
alternatives last fall, and a purchase decision was far from
pressing. It's a hobby for me, like many here. Whether or not my
photographs impress anyone here isn't all that important to me.
I'm learning as much about the technology as the art, so I'm
curious about every new product, whether or not I intend to own one.

As it happens, the D60 is one product I'm seriously considering
buying, but even if I do buy it I'm still going to plan for the
future. I'd like to know at what rate sensor sizes are continuing
to grow, because it would affect my choices when investing in
lenses. I'd like to know if the Foveon technology shows promise,
because it might mean delaying my purchase decision another
generation.

Please accept the fact that not everyone uses the forums for the
same purpose. You're waiting for samples from talented
photographers and posts from people looking to master their
existing equipment. I'm eager for news about what choices I'll
have when I decide to take the plunge. We both have to wade
through a lot of material that may or may not interest us, but the
gems tend to be worth the effort.

• Blake Stone

Click to expand...

--
Allan R

Click to expand...

So if you had shot the picture at 1/200's you would have been shooting with an apeture of f10.

Now if you were shooting something 15 feet infront of you at 135mm the difference between f10 and f16 would be noticable, but I can assure you that at that distance, there would be virtually no great improvement in the depth of field. Its still a nice shot though!

Bob said:

Neil Buchan-Grant said:

Bob said:

I agree that there are a lot of apparently snapshot quality
photographers with D30's on this forum. But that may not be bad if
they learn something about how to get good shots.

Photography is a combination of luck, ability to anticipate and see
a good opportunity and having the right equipment to capture that
image. Luck because sometimes it takes being in the right place at
the right time when you cannot predict when that will be. Ability
is the most critical and learnable aspect - knowing composition,
knowing and understanding the subject and/or the circumstances you
are in, and having lifetime experience doing photography that you
can call upon in each next circumstance. Finally having the
necessary equipment to get the shot - sometime an old Kodak box
camera may be enough, other times more sophisticated equipment.
This is where ability and equipment compliment each other.

In the shot below - which won Third Place in the International
Council of Airshows Annual Photo Contest this past year - I used a
Canon D30 with the 28-135 mm IS lens (not an L type). How did the
IS help? I was able to shoot a a lower shutter speed and therefore
get better depth of field and hence get better definition in the
smoke.

I was LUCKY to be in the right place in relation to the loop the
formation flew, ABLE to realize how well the blue aircraft would
show with the white smoke in the background rather than blue sky
and able to anticipate it was going to happen by virture of knowing
their aerobatic routine and having the right lens (EQUIPMENT) to
accomplish the goal of maximizing the depth of field I could get
with the IS and a slower shutter speed (about 1/80 of asecond when
the rule would be 1/focal length or 1/200))

Click to expand...

--
Neil
http://www.neilbuchangrant.co.uk

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--Neil http://www.neilbuchangrant.co.uk

Here's my philosophy on forums:

The secret of enoying forums is acceptance and tolerance of other people. All of us have different levels of understanding and skill regarding digital photography. That's why we're here.

A forum is a marketplace of ideas, a place where lively debate can and should flourish. Enjoy the differences!

I am incredibly grateful to this forum and all its members for the help, inspiration, knowledge, and enjoyment they provide.

Have to agree with that, When I was considering the D30 and what lenses to get I saved a packet of time and money by going through the issues with the forum members. Their unrivaled enthusiasm for the D30 gave me the boost I needed to take the plunge! Their enthusiasm was entirely justified, the camera will 'do me' for several years to come.

Michael Porter said:

Here's my philosophy on forums:
The secret of enoying forums is acceptance and tolerance of other
people. All of us have different levels of understanding and skill
regarding digital photography. That's why we're here.

A forum is a marketplace of ideas, a place where lively debate can
and should flourish. Enjoy the differences!

I am incredibly grateful to this forum and all its members for the
help, inspiration, knowledge, and enjoyment they provide.

Click to expand...

--Neil http://www.neilbuchangrant.co.uk

I believe there are some people who mistakenly believe the "camera" portion of the system is all there is. Their frustration comes when their results are not what they expect, and their first inclination is to blame the camera. Lenses quality, and knowing when to use what when is sometimes underrated, particularly when people speak of poor autofucus. The better lenses not only give an incredibly improved image, they do autofucs much better. When you master the D-30, and build the proper system for you needs, it's an incredible camera. The shot Bob posted was very good. He maximized the limits of his 28-135is and D-30 and had perfect timing to capture he moment he wanted. If he had had an even better quality lens, it might have been even better, and he may have gotten 2nd or 1st place.

The current pixel and image quality for me is adequate. The pixel wars to me are similar to the audiophile wars of the 80's and the .000001 is better than the .000002 harmonic distortion wars. There is so much more than specs. Give me a high quality tube amp with .10 THD and compare it to a solid state with .001......no comparison. I digress ......sorry.

My point is some people have the expectation that's it's all in the camera. It's not. You have to know your craft or hobby and put together the system to fit your needs. Waiting on the sidelines to me is crazy.....there will always be a "better" product on the horizon. And cameras are about taking pictures, not telling people the technical aspects. Otherwise instead of photo albums, why don't we just all have an album with the Technical specifications of our equiptment?--Steve Mitchellwww.boxcarstudios.com

...but when the person is asking for critiques and suggestions on
how to improve they should get it - or they will never learn.

I can understand people not wanting to comment or criticise
that aren't pros or even serious amateurs, but there are a lot
of good photographers that read and post here that could
give some suggestions on how to improve a photo. That is
all I ask.

Brian

Neil Buchan-Grant said:

The reason you get few critiques is that it takes a certain sort of
anally retentive berk to want to take someones pictures to bits
(unless he does it for a living, then he's a comercially justified,
anally retentive berk) If you look at postings of people who take
reasonable pictures, they get plenty of praise, its easy to praise,
but as a race, we are not motivated to criticise!

Brian Hansen said:

Jack A. Zucker said:

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots.

Click to expand...

The reason the majority of pics posted here are snapshots is when you
do post a photo you want critiqued, no one replies. I don't have a
lot
of options for critique. My friends and coworkers are not photogs.
My wife could care less - Investment Banker... Because I am fairly
new to this, I haven't met many photographers in Milwaukee. The
only way for me to learn from my photos is posting to forums. This
is the one I trust the most. Except that has been challenged
lately with
the D60 rumor BS. I feel I could become a much better photographer
with some good strong critiques. I know I could post in the gallery
forum, but I want opinions from D30 owners. With this being the most
visited D30 forum on the net - it is the most likely place to post
pics you
want critiqued by D30 owners. When you do - you get 4 replies from
mostly people that have the same amount of experience as you have.

What does it take to get your photos critiqued - strongly I might add
without thinking it will hurt someones thin feelings. Realize that
the
person posting is doing it to understand what they are doing wrong
and at the same time - what they are doing right. You can read all
the books and educational websites but there is nothing like some good
strong critisism to learn how to do something from people that know
what they're talking about.

I still believe most of the threads in this forum are started by
people
who want to see how many replies they can get (can you say Trolls).
OR by people who don't know how or are too lazy to search.

My sixth sense,
Brian Hansen

Click to expand...

--
Neil
http://www.neilbuchangrant.co.uk

Click to expand...

I got into photography because I thought it would be fun. Part of the fun for me is the equipment and part is the craft. What matters to me the most though is having fun with photography.

Many of my pictures are not that good, IMHO. For all the expensive equipment I have, or have had, I am often dissapointed with my shots. It's rarely because the picture is out of focus. My disssatisfaction comes mostly when I see pictures I have taken that bore me or should have been taken from a different perspective, at a different shutter speed/aperature or should have been lit differently.

I don't care if my pictures are artistic or if anyone else thinks my composition is good. That's not what photography is all about for me.

I have a Pro90is, a Canon A2 and a Mamya 330 TLR with all kinds of goodies for each camera. I enjoy the equipment even though my skills are lacking compared to a "real pro's". I have earned enough money from most of the equipment to pay for it many times over. Many people have enjoyed some of my images that I think are second rate and most people on these forums would agree kind of suck.

For me, it's all about having fun with the hobby. I think it would be fun to have a digital SLR that I could mount my Sweeeeeeet L glass on, take the camera out and play with and maybe capture an image of two that doesn't suck!

I've been waiting for the second generation D30 and it will be here soon.

It's about time to spend a bunch more money buying fancy equipment to take pictures that are only marginally better than snapshots and sometimes not even that good!

I always love to pick on "tube-o-philes" and ask them why they want distortion in their music. After all, that IS what tube adds to the music.

The problem is that everybody assumes "distortion" is a pejorative. Not so. A tube amp can take music and add incredible warmth to it, which many find quite pleasing.

It's sort of like the D-30 CMOS cult. The CMOS, or AA filter, or some combination of both, has resulted in very pleasing images to many people. But there IS distortion going on -- it's just that it's a very pleasing form.

And now back to photography.

steve mitchell said:

Give me a high quality tube amp with
.10 THD and compare it to a solid state with .001......no
comparison. I digress ......sorry.

Click to expand...

--The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net

I Care!!!!

I care because Canon sucked me into buying a $ 3000 camera with a pitiful auto focus. I have a fortune in glass, including some fast primes. I would like to be able to shoot low light sports. It is most difficult to do this with the D-30’s cheap auto focus. Canon has said that you can not trust your eyes to manually focus the D-30, and I have found this to be correct. I am going to give Canon one more chance to give me a camera that you can auto focus, and manual focus with replaceable viewfinder screens. If they can’t or won’t do this then I will sell the whole kit and start over with someone that can.

Regards,
Greg

OhioMike said:

http://www.jackzucker.com

Interesting post. I think you proceed from the assumption that
Canon SLR talk is a pro forum. I assume the pros are in the Pro
forum. I also assume the vast majority of people who are into
photography and visit this forum are in it as for enjoyment as a
hobby. I may be wrong but it sounds like you are assuming
photography is some sort of competition to claim bragging rights on
who has the best photos. I enjoy this forum as people are friendly
and always willing to give advice. Its not like some other forums
that are basically just a bunch of overinflated egos who really
dont talk about much but themselves.
--
Mike

Click to expand...

I think a proper distinction needs to be made between the terms "pro" and "Amateur" photographers. Consider the word "amateur" for a moment. It's root is in the french word, "amour". An amateur photographer is one who does photography for the "love of it". No more, no less. The implication that an "amateur's" work is inferior to a "Pro's" work is just wrong.

The fact that a photographer is doing it for money, is no guarantee that his work is any good. In fact, if he's only doing it for money, the likelihood of outstanding work diminishes. The pro world is filled with hack shooters that do everything with formula lighting, formula posing, etc. etc. Is it good photography? No. They do this because it sells and puts money in their pockets. Do hack photographers even care about good photography? No. They care about the bottom line. This is not meant to insult anyone, but you all know who you are.

In their defense, pros often either don't have time to use their imagination, or must shoot everything to a formula dictated by their clients.

The amateur, on the other hand, can and does experiment, push the envelope a little, sometimes producing garbage, but more often producing something truly unique and good to look at, which is the whole idea, right?

Yes, working pros are often more adept at handling equipment. That's because they find equipment that agrees with them, and they use it every day. That's not talent. It's familiarity. If asked to do what YOU do every day, a pro photographer would be clumsy and slow, and probably do a lousy job of it.

One thing pros and amateurs have in common: Both tend to blame their equipment for their mistakes. It's OK to make mistakes. That's how we learn NOT to make them. What's not OK is to make the same mistakes over and over, (say, out-of-focus shots) and blame the camera, (D30). If a guy feels his camera's autofocus is poor, he should focus it himself rather than ***** about his camera.

Bottom line is, in spite of all the snapshots, I'd bet there's a lot more good photography done by those who are doing it "for the love of it" than those doing it for "filthy lucre".

I'm a pro, by the way, not that it matters. Can't show you my stuff. Clients would be way pissed to find themselves on the net.--EB

Karlg said:

I'm shooting basketball at ISO1600 at F1.8 at 1/250th. I
definitely would like a better autofocus system. For most uses the
D30 AF is fine, but indoor sports could really use a better AF
system.

Karl

Click to expand...

Karl,

Any samples of your 85mm at ISO1600, F1.8 would be much appreciated.
Thanks,

Jake

Yatin Chachad said:

Most people on the Canon SLR Forum have ho-hum, or mediocre > photographic capability at best. Not all. Most do not even share their > photographs, and get easily offended when their work is criticised. Others > do not even have the guts to say anything about a simply BAD photo. All > everyone is interested in is their equipment. CSLR forum consists of > egocentric men with deep pockets and lighters to start flame wars.
Not so relectant to share my work and accept comments and criticisms, I > remain,

Click to expand...

Member said:

Dr. Y. Chachad

Click to expand...

Yatin,

Am we to understand that you are NOT interested in your equipment?

Your subject -matter suggests that you are a DOCTOR OF PHOTOGRAPHY, perhaps(?), ...but your presentation convinces me that your doctorate is in "generalization".

I am sure you will graciously-accept this critical comment. which I'm not-reluctant to give. Some others do not even have the guts to say anything about a simply BAD post.

I do.

Please excuse me now, as it is time for my hourly look-in-the-mirror, ...and then I have to go spend some money - my pocket is getting hot.

Larry (PS: Thanks for the loan of your lighter.)

Brian,

A simple subject line like "Critique honestly and strongly!" with a text explanation that this is really what you are looking-for, ...should help people overcome their tendency to "be nice".

HTH,

Larry

Brian Hansen wrote:
...

Brian Hansen said:

The reason the majority of pics posted here are snapshots is when you
do post a photo you want critiqued, no one replies. I don't have a
lot
of options for critique. My friends and coworkers are not photogs.
My wife could care less - Investment Banker... Because I am fairly
new to this, I haven't met many photographers in Milwaukee. The
only way for me to learn from my photos is posting to forums. This
is the one I trust the most.

Click to expand...

Brian Hansen said:

... I feel I could become a much better photographer
with some good strong critiques. I know I could post in the gallery
forum, but I want opinions from D30 owners. With this being the most
visited D30 forum on the net - it is the most likely place to post
pics you
want critiqued by D30 owners. When you do - you get 4 replies from
mostly people that have the same amount of experience as you have.

What does it take to get your photos critiqued - strongly I might add
without thinking it will hurt someones thin feelings. Realize that
the
person posting is doing it to understand what they are doing wrong
and at the same time - what they are doing right. You can read all
the books and educational websites but there is nothing like some good
strong critisism to learn how to do something from people that know
what they're talking about.

Click to expand...

Greg R said:

I care because Canon sucked me into buying a $ 3000 camera with a
pitiful auto focus. I have a fortune in glass, including some fast
primes. I would like to be able to shoot low light sports. It is
most difficult to do this with the D-30’s cheap auto focus. Canon
has said that you can not trust your eyes to manually focus the
D-30, and I have found this to be correct. I am going to give
Canon one more chance to give me a camera that you can auto focus,
and manual focus with replaceable viewfinder screens. If they
can’t or won’t do this then I will sell the whole kit and start
over with someone that can.

Click to expand...

I suggest you might want to buy a 1D. It seems to do everything you require.

Hi Greg, just exactly how did Canon "suck" you into buying the D30. Every review of the camera called in question its ability re AF. If the majority of your pictures require a strong AF why in the world did you buy (of your own free will) the D30.

You made the decision to buy the D30, don't blame Canon if it was a stupid decision on your part.

Roger

Greg R said:

I Care!!!!

I care because Canon sucked me into buying a $ 3000 camera with a
pitiful auto focus. I have a fortune in glass, including some fast
primes. I would like to be able to shoot low light sports. It is
most difficult to do this with the D-30’s cheap auto focus. Canon
has said that you can not trust your eyes to manually focus the
D-30, and I have found this to be correct. I am going to give
Canon one more chance to give me a camera that you can auto focus,
and manual focus with replaceable viewfinder screens. If they
can’t or won’t do this then I will sell the whole kit and start
over with someone that can.

Regards,
Greg

Click to expand...