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D60 - Who cares ?!?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jack A. Zucker
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Jack A. Zucker

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I've kept quiet this long but I'm going to say something now. Not that I'm any great photographer or anything but...

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos I see in this forum are snapshots. I wonder how many of you folks have maxed out the existing technology before jumping onto a new equipment bandwagon. Somehow I don't think many of us have reached the point where the image quality is holding us back.

Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still struggling with exposure and composition...

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's my $0.02

Jaz-- http://www.jackzucker.com
 
Jack,

I'm glad you have the guts to point this out. So very true. There are many "look at my photos" posts here that are just frankly yawners. I don't think a new body or a new zoom lens will make people better photographers.
Jack A. Zucker said:
I've kept quiet this long but I'm going to say something now. Not
that I'm any great photographer or anything but...

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots. I wonder how many of you folks
have maxed out the existing technology before jumping onto a new
equipment bandwagon. Somehow I don't think many of us have reached
the point where the image quality is holding us back.

Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better
autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still
struggling with exposure and composition...

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's my $0.02

Jaz
--
http://www.jackzucker.com
Click to expand...
 
I just bought a D30 and I think it is wonderful! I can not believe how fantastic the pictures turned out and how great they look on the Epson printer.

People at work are totally blown away when I tell them it is from a digital camera and that I printed it. I do use Canon L-lenses. I recently printed a picture on a 8 1/2 by 11 high glossy sheet and I could not believe how great it looks. I can see individual fine hairs and the colors look wonderful. I am not a pro but I think I do have high standards.

So, I am very happy for now. I figure the D30 will be good for a couple of years until the technology drastically changes.

Allan
Jack A. Zucker said:
I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots. I wonder how many of you folks
have maxed out the existing technology before jumping onto a new
equipment bandwagon. Somehow I don't think many of us have reached
the point where the image quality is holding us back.
Click to expand...
 
Most people on the Canon SLR Forum have ho-hum, or mediocre photographic capability at best. Not all. Most do not even share their photographs, and get easily offended when their work is criticised. Others do not even have the guts to say anything about a simply BAD photo. All everyone is interested in is their equipment. CSLR forum consists of egocentric men with deep pockets and lighters to start flame wars.
Not so relectant to share my work and accept comments and criticisms, I remain,

Dr. Y. Chachad
http://www.pbase.com/chachads
Paul Callahan said:
Jack A. Zucker said:
I've kept quiet this long but I'm going to say something now. Not
that I'm any great photographer or anything but...

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots. I wonder how many of you folks
have maxed out the existing technology before jumping onto a new
equipment bandwagon. Somehow I don't think many of us have reached
the point where the image quality is holding us back.

Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better
autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still
struggling with exposure and composition...

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's my $0.02

Jaz
--
http://www.jackzucker.com
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--Sincerely,Y. Chachad
 
Jack,

You're right that the camera does not make the photos and a fixation with equipment can be more detrimental than helpful in most cases. However, the functionality of a camera that costs $3000 should excede that of an EOS Rebel that costs $300, it has little to do with file size and tons to do with confidence in the gear. I'm convinced that if Canon give the market an offering that provides the majority of their customers the unshakeable confidence that the once in a lifetime photo they expect have a chance to shoot someday soon won't be wasted because the camera won't focus fast enough or they cannot print it larger than an 8x10 (I've made many stunning D30 prints larger than this but the frame of mind I'm illustrating here keeps me from shooting as much as I might) then everybody GO GET A D60!

Digital photography is flattening out the learning curve allowing each of us a speedier journey to become the photographer each of us has the potential to be. If 6+mp will get people to embrace this medium fully then the art of photography will be better off than if the "vast majority of folks" stayed happy with a 3mp camera they think they will later regret making so many images with because of their perceived limitations due to file size, autofocus issues, etc.

Have a $0.98 day.

-Craig http://www.strongphotography.com
Jack A. Zucker said:
I've kept quiet this long but I'm going to say something now. Not
that I'm any great photographer or anything but...

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots. I wonder how many of you folks
have maxed out the existing technology before jumping onto a new
equipment bandwagon. Somehow I don't think many of us have reached
the point where the image quality is holding us back.

Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better
autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still
struggling with exposure and composition...

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's my $0.02

Jaz
--
http://www.jackzucker.com
Click to expand...
 
Even if the technology changes 10 fold, I don't believe we are going to see photographs that are even 25 percent better, until we change out attitudes toward photography, stop Nikon flame wars, and understand photographic techniques, and out talents, and hold ourselves "accountable" for producing better images.
YRC
allanofcalifornia said:
So, I am very happy for now. I figure the D30 will be good for a
couple of years until the technology drastically changes.

Allan
--Sincerely,Y. Chachad
Click to expand...
 
You're assuming that everyone here already has a D30, which is likely far from the truth. I started to research digital SLR alternatives last fall, and a purchase decision was far from pressing. It's a hobby for me, like many here. Whether or not my photographs impress anyone here isn't all that important to me. I'm learning as much about the technology as the art, so I'm curious about every new product, whether or not I intend to own one.

As it happens, the D60 is one product I'm seriously considering buying, but even if I do buy it I'm still going to plan for the future. I'd like to know at what rate sensor sizes are continuing to grow, because it would affect my choices when investing in lenses. I'd like to know if the Foveon technology shows promise, because it might mean delaying my purchase decision another generation.

Please accept the fact that not everyone uses the forums for the same purpose. You're waiting for samples from talented photographers and posts from people looking to master their existing equipment. I'm eager for news about what choices I'll have when I decide to take the plunge. We both have to wade through a lot of material that may or may not interest us, but the gems tend to be worth the effort.
  • Blake Stone
 
Blake is right.

I am in the same boat as he is. I have Canon EOS film cameras and a number of lenses, including several "L" lenses, and I want to learn more about digital. I find it exciting in its possibilities, but I am not ready either to buy a camera that does not yet match film (D30) or one that will bankrupt me (1D). I use scanners to digitize my work now. I mostly do it for enjoyment but have made signiicant sales which have paid for some of my equipment.Also, if I am going to spring for $3,000 for a camera, then I want to be SURE that its autofocus will do what I need to do, as my work is primarily aviation action photography, where aircraft are moving at very high speeds. At present, my film cameras will follow focus these subjects. Fromm what I have heard, I could not be sure that the D30 could do this. Let's see what the next generation after the D30 will do.

Allan Rossmore
Blake Stone said:
You're assuming that everyone here already has a D30, which is
likely far from the truth. I started to research digital SLR
alternatives last fall, and a purchase decision was far from
pressing. It's a hobby for me, like many here. Whether or not my
photographs impress anyone here isn't all that important to me.
I'm learning as much about the technology as the art, so I'm
curious about every new product, whether or not I intend to own one.

As it happens, the D60 is one product I'm seriously considering
buying, but even if I do buy it I'm still going to plan for the
future. I'd like to know at what rate sensor sizes are continuing
to grow, because it would affect my choices when investing in
lenses. I'd like to know if the Foveon technology shows promise,
because it might mean delaying my purchase decision another
generation.

Please accept the fact that not everyone uses the forums for the
same purpose. You're waiting for samples from talented
photographers and posts from people looking to master their
existing equipment. I'm eager for news about what choices I'll
have when I decide to take the plunge. We both have to wade
through a lot of material that may or may not interest us, but the
gems tend to be worth the effort.
  • Blake Stone
Click to expand...
--Allan R
 
Jack A. Zucker said:
Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better
autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still
struggling with exposure and composition...
Click to expand...
Well, I did think about flaming you, but I couldn't figure out what to flame you for . Sorry. :-)

Speaking as a former professional photographer, let me opine that -- strange as it might seem -- even the pros occasionally struggle with exposure and composition.

After reading about the D30 in this (mostly very useful) forum for months, I finally snagged one of the remaining refurbished units. I had been expecting lousy autofocus -- to judge by some of the complaints here -- and had assumed I'd be focusing manually most of the time. Well, uh, NO. People who are accustomed to the much bigger-ticket Canon cameras might have reason to be concerned that the D30 must sometimes "hunt," but when I'd worked with the thing for only a few moments, I found myself wondering: "What the HELL are these folks complaining about?"

Of course it hunts -- if you "feed" it a low-contrast subject. Even if the better/more expensive systems "hunt" less, they're still not going to get it right every time. Anyway, recalling the days when a professional wouldn't be caught dead with an auto-focus camera -- because they did such a lousy job much of the time -- I'm struck by how fortunate I am to possess an example of this "inferior" focusing technology. (LOL!)

The photographer who encouraged me to go for the D30 while there were still some of them available, heard my anti-rant about the auto-focusing, and then heard me wondering aloud why everyone's so irritated by the D30's auto-focus, replied: "Told you so." :-)
 
I agree that there are a lot of apparently snapshot quality photographers with D30's on this forum. But that may not be bad if they learn something about how to get good shots.

Photography is a combination of luck, ability to anticipate and see a good opportunity and having the right equipment to capture that image. Luck because sometimes it takes being in the right place at the right time when you cannot predict when that will be. Ability is the most critical and learnable aspect - knowing composition, knowing and understanding the subject and/or the circumstances you are in, and having lifetime experience doing photography that you can call upon in each next circumstance. Finally having the necessary equipment to get the shot - sometime an old Kodak box camera may be enough, other times more sophisticated equipment. This is where ability and equipment compliment each other.

In the shot below - which won Third Place in the International Council of Airshows Annual Photo Contest this past year - I used a Canon D30 with the 28-135 mm IS lens (not an L type). How did the IS help? I was able to shoot a a lower shutter speed and therefore get better depth of field and hence get better definition in the smoke.

I was LUCKY to be in the right place in relation to the loop the formation flew, ABLE to realize how well the blue aircraft would show with the white smoke in the background rather than blue sky and able to anticipate it was going to happen by virture of knowing their aerobatic routine and having the right lens (EQUIPMENT) to accomplish the goal of maximizing the depth of field I could get with the IS and a slower shutter speed (about 1/80 of asecond when the rule would be 1/focal length or 1/200))

 
Jack,

I'm just the guy you are speaking about. I have been taking "snapshots" since I was in high school (in the 60's), using the Kalimar SLR I bought with my hard earned money. Using more of my own hard earned money, I progressed through a few Nikon and Canon film cameras and many digitals. I certainly haven't "maxed out the existing technology", but I love the technology and it is a great part of the enjoyment I get from photography along with my other hobbies, ham radio and computers, and my profession, flying airplanes.

I'm so enamored by the technology that I not only bought a D30, but also a Kodak 8660 so I could show off my "snapshots" to my limited audience.

You're right, I don't "need" the better autofocus, but I "want" the better autofocus. I'm anxiously awaiting the D60 or whatever follows the D30 and may buy it if the technology excites me enough. I hate that this attitude offends you or others, but it is my money and my hobby to enjoy as I wish.

If I was a pro I would be in the "Pro" forum, but as an amateur, I'm sure I wouldn't be welcomed there (although I do lurk and read their enlightening posts).

Jim
Jack A. Zucker said:
I've kept quiet this long but I'm going to say something now. Not
that I'm any great photographer or anything but...

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots. I wonder how many of you folks
have maxed out the existing technology before jumping onto a new
equipment bandwagon. Somehow I don't think many of us have reached
the point where the image quality is holding us back.

Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better
autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still
struggling with exposure and composition...

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's my $0.02

Jaz
--
http://www.jackzucker.com
Click to expand...
 
Well.......for the most part I think you are BANG ON THE MONEY JACK!!!

It is frightening how many awful photographers have expensive cameras but, hey, so what? we live in a free society and there is no law against using great gear to take terrible pictures is there?

People will allways buy good gear for many different reasons and the individual's ability to take a good photo has nothing to do with it.

That very much includes the professional community, many of whom may well 'bring home the bacon' but have no artistic insight whatsoever!

But the lowest of the low are those who criticise others work and do not put up their own for viewing, fortunately there is not too much of that on ths forum. If you want some of that action, try Photonet!

You have some great photos on your site, you are a better photographer than you are an editor though:-) You should pair it down a little. I look at the homepages/photos of anyone who says anything interesting, I love the stuff of Craig Strong's site (further up this thread). To put that lovely contre jour shot of the kid walking at the front of what is obviously a 'business' site, says a lot about the person behind it.

If someone has some great shots, then we should say so but if someone has poor photos I don't see any point in criticising him/her specifically, the absense of praise would be deafening enough! Were all trying to take better pictures here even the wallies with more cash than sense!
Jack A. Zucker said:
I've kept quiet this long but I'm going to say something now. Not
that I'm any great photographer or anything but...

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots. I wonder how many of you folks
have maxed out the existing technology before jumping onto a new
equipment bandwagon. Somehow I don't think many of us have reached
the point where the image quality is holding us back.

Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better
autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still
struggling with exposure and composition...

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's my $0.02

Jaz
--
http://www.jackzucker.com
Click to expand...
--Neil http://www.neilbuchangrant.co.uk
 
Just out of interest Bob, what apeture was this shot taken at?
Bob said:
I agree that there are a lot of apparently snapshot quality
photographers with D30's on this forum. But that may not be bad if
they learn something about how to get good shots.

Photography is a combination of luck, ability to anticipate and see
a good opportunity and having the right equipment to capture that
image. Luck because sometimes it takes being in the right place at
the right time when you cannot predict when that will be. Ability
is the most critical and learnable aspect - knowing composition,
knowing and understanding the subject and/or the circumstances you
are in, and having lifetime experience doing photography that you
can call upon in each next circumstance. Finally having the
necessary equipment to get the shot - sometime an old Kodak box
camera may be enough, other times more sophisticated equipment.
This is where ability and equipment compliment each other.

In the shot below - which won Third Place in the International
Council of Airshows Annual Photo Contest this past year - I used a
Canon D30 with the 28-135 mm IS lens (not an L type). How did the
IS help? I was able to shoot a a lower shutter speed and therefore
get better depth of field and hence get better definition in the
smoke.

I was LUCKY to be in the right place in relation to the loop the
formation flew, ABLE to realize how well the blue aircraft would
show with the white smoke in the background rather than blue sky
and able to anticipate it was going to happen by virture of knowing
their aerobatic routine and having the right lens (EQUIPMENT) to
accomplish the goal of maximizing the depth of field I could get
with the IS and a slower shutter speed (about 1/80 of asecond when
the rule would be 1/focal length or 1/200))

Click to expand...
--Neil http://www.neilbuchangrant.co.uk
 
Neil Buchan-Grant said:
It is frightening how many awful photographers have expensive
cameras...
Click to expand...
I find it much more disturbing that there are so many people willing to pass unilateral judgement on other people's photographs. Personally, I find it encouraging that so many people share one of my interests - it means more people to share discoveries with, and more people to support ongoing R&D costs associated with producing these expensive cameras. If only those "worthy" of the equipment were allowed to purchase it, they wouldn't be able to afford it. How does it feel to disdain people who help make your equipment affordable?
  • Blake Stone
 
First, I enjoyed the shot. It certainly helps to know what your subject is going to do.

I'm with you most of the way, but I don't think you would have had a DoF problem no matter what you did. The jets had to be near to or beyond the Hyperfocal distance (about 1000 Feet with a D30 at 135mm at F5.6) so the DoF would have been huge even wide open. You would certainly gain sharpness by stopping down, so the IS may have helped, but you only gain sharpness till some place past F8 where diffraction effects usually start hurting sharpness.

Karl
Bob said:
I agree that there are a lot of apparently snapshot quality
photographers with D30's on this forum. But that may not be bad if
they learn something about how to get good shots.

Photography is a combination of luck, ability to anticipate and see
a good opportunity and having the right equipment to capture that
image. Luck because sometimes it takes being in the right place at
the right time when you cannot predict when that will be. Ability
is the most critical and learnable aspect - knowing composition,
knowing and understanding the subject and/or the circumstances you
are in, and having lifetime experience doing photography that you
can call upon in each next circumstance. Finally having the
necessary equipment to get the shot - sometime an old Kodak box
camera may be enough, other times more sophisticated equipment.
This is where ability and equipment compliment each other.

In the shot below - which won Third Place in the International
Council of Airshows Annual Photo Contest this past year - I used a
Canon D30 with the 28-135 mm IS lens (not an L type). How did the
IS help? I was able to shoot a a lower shutter speed and therefore
get better depth of field and hence get better definition in the
smoke.

I was LUCKY to be in the right place in relation to the loop the
formation flew, ABLE to realize how well the blue aircraft would
show with the white smoke in the background rather than blue sky
and able to anticipate it was going to happen by virture of knowing
their aerobatic routine and having the right lens (EQUIPMENT) to
accomplish the goal of maximizing the depth of field I could get
with the IS and a slower shutter speed (about 1/80 of asecond when
the rule would be 1/focal length or 1/200))

Click to expand...
--Karl
 
About f16
Neil Buchan-Grant said:
Bob said:
I agree that there are a lot of apparently snapshot quality
photographers with D30's on this forum. But that may not be bad if
they learn something about how to get good shots.

Photography is a combination of luck, ability to anticipate and see
a good opportunity and having the right equipment to capture that
image. Luck because sometimes it takes being in the right place at
the right time when you cannot predict when that will be. Ability
is the most critical and learnable aspect - knowing composition,
knowing and understanding the subject and/or the circumstances you
are in, and having lifetime experience doing photography that you
can call upon in each next circumstance. Finally having the
necessary equipment to get the shot - sometime an old Kodak box
camera may be enough, other times more sophisticated equipment.
This is where ability and equipment compliment each other.

In the shot below - which won Third Place in the International
Council of Airshows Annual Photo Contest this past year - I used a
Canon D30 with the 28-135 mm IS lens (not an L type). How did the
IS help? I was able to shoot a a lower shutter speed and therefore
get better depth of field and hence get better definition in the
smoke.

I was LUCKY to be in the right place in relation to the loop the
formation flew, ABLE to realize how well the blue aircraft would
show with the white smoke in the background rather than blue sky
and able to anticipate it was going to happen by virture of knowing
their aerobatic routine and having the right lens (EQUIPMENT) to
accomplish the goal of maximizing the depth of field I could get
with the IS and a slower shutter speed (about 1/80 of asecond when
the rule would be 1/focal length or 1/200))

Click to expand...
--
Neil
http://www.neilbuchangrant.co.uk
Click to expand...
 
I have always thought it was a bit backwards that a pro "needs" and "pro" cameras get better autofocus systems. You would think a pro would be able to manually focus by touch where an amatuer would need to most help with focus.

I know of course that Pro's have their livelyhood on the line and can be shooting tougher to catch subjects.

I'm shooting basketball at ISO1600 at F1.8 at 1/250th. I definitely would like a better autofocus system. For most uses the D30 AF is fine, but indoor sports could really use a better AF system.

Karl
Jack A. Zucker said:
Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better
autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still
struggling with exposure and composition...
Click to expand...
--Karl
 
Note that the smoke on the upside part of the loop was between 2500 and 3500 feet away from the downside part of the loop and the jets about 2000 feet away.
Karlg said:
I'm with you most of the way, but I don't think you would have had
a DoF problem no matter what you did. The jets had to be near to
or beyond the Hyperfocal distance (about 1000 Feet with a D30 at
135mm at F5.6) so the DoF would have been huge even wide open.
You would certainly gain sharpness by stopping down, so the IS may
have helped, but you only gain sharpness till some place past F8
where diffraction effects usually start hurting sharpness.

Karl
Bob said:
I agree that there are a lot of apparently snapshot quality
photographers with D30's on this forum. But that may not be bad if
they learn something about how to get good shots.

Photography is a combination of luck, ability to anticipate and see
a good opportunity and having the right equipment to capture that
image. Luck because sometimes it takes being in the right place at
the right time when you cannot predict when that will be. Ability
is the most critical and learnable aspect - knowing composition,
knowing and understanding the subject and/or the circumstances you
are in, and having lifetime experience doing photography that you
can call upon in each next circumstance. Finally having the
necessary equipment to get the shot - sometime an old Kodak box
camera may be enough, other times more sophisticated equipment.
This is where ability and equipment compliment each other.

In the shot below - which won Third Place in the International
Council of Airshows Annual Photo Contest this past year - I used a
Canon D30 with the 28-135 mm IS lens (not an L type). How did the
IS help? I was able to shoot a a lower shutter speed and therefore
get better depth of field and hence get better definition in the
smoke.

I was LUCKY to be in the right place in relation to the loop the
formation flew, ABLE to realize how well the blue aircraft would
show with the white smoke in the background rather than blue sky
and able to anticipate it was going to happen by virture of knowing
their aerobatic routine and having the right lens (EQUIPMENT) to
accomplish the goal of maximizing the depth of field I could get
with the IS and a slower shutter speed (about 1/80 of asecond when
the rule would be 1/focal length or 1/200))

Click to expand...
--
Karl
Click to expand...
 
Jack A. Zucker said:
I've kept quiet this long but I'm going to say something now. Not
that I'm any great photographer or anything but...

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots. I wonder how many of you folks
have maxed out the existing technology before jumping onto a new
equipment bandwagon. Somehow I don't think many of us have reached
the point where the image quality is holding us back.

Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better
autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still
struggling with exposure and composition...

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's my $0.02

Jaz
--
Click to expand...
You are 100 per cent right.
Member said:
http://www.jackzucker.com
Click to expand...
 
Funny you should post this for I was thinking just today that I would probably pay $500 to upgrade my D30 to five magapixels but I wouldn't pay $1,000. I personally don't need more hardware I need more practise and education. I'm taking a class right now the emphasis of which is to teach you how to compose. A lot of the rest I can learn by trial and error.

billtoo
Jack A. Zucker said:
I've kept quiet this long but I'm going to say something now. Not
that I'm any great photographer or anything but...

I can't help but notice that the majority of examples of D30 photos
I see in this forum are snapshots. I wonder how many of you folks
have maxed out the existing technology before jumping onto a new
equipment bandwagon. Somehow I don't think many of us have reached
the point where the image quality is holding us back.

Of course there are some pros here and folks who need the better
autofocus but I'm guessing the vast majority of folks are still
struggling with exposure and composition...

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get flamed but that's my $0.02

Jaz
--
http://www.jackzucker.com
Click to expand...
 
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