I don't get it....

I know what you mean, and the parallax drives me nutty sometimes when I am trying to precisely line up foreground and background elements in a shot - but overall the much brighter view, especially when focussing in low light, plus the ability to see outside the frame, are a great deal more than compensation! It is also weirdly useful being able to flick a little lever and see what frame other focal lengths would give - though not as useful as turning a zoom ring and getting them ;-)

Tim
But optical tunnel viewfinders? How, er, backward...
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If I take two 40" wide enlargements of the same scene, one on my 5D and one on my M8, I can tell the difference immediately. Sorry, I just can! And I know this has a lot to do with lenses....

Tim
I think the differences between even budget CD players and
expensive kit is pretty small. And those differences quickly fade
as you get used to them, such is the nature of human perception.

I recently spent 2 afternoons in listening rooms researching a new
CD player to replace my 17 year old Rotel budget player. Ended up
with a new unit with fancy dual Wolf something or other highend
DACs.

But you know what, now I have it home, the sound might actually be
somewhat less enjoyable than the old one :-)

Whether it is or not the improvements are barely discernable -
despite 17 years of technical development and the 5* ratings
from the snake oil merchants audio press...

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I don't see any reason to malign the rangefinder. It's neccessary when you don't want a mirror making all that noise.

My M5 so silent, no mirror and a rubberized cloth shutter. I have the Canon EOS 1-V 35mm film camera and it's excellent but it's large and it is not as silent as my Leica.

I have the EOS 1Ds Mark II and it's very excellent but still not as silent asy M5.
--
Artist Eyes
 
I can understand the pleasure of using high precision, beautifully made equipment made from the finest materials that excludes any unnecessary frills other than those absolutely designed to meet a photographer's field needs.

It is a source of regret that for all the wonderful hi-tech built into today's gear and despite the fantastic low prices they sell for, we seem to have lost the man-and-machine-in-harmony factor.

But I don't get the impression that the M8 or any other Leicas for that matter have ever quite achieved that - despite the reputation. There is always some feature, quirk or design decision that undermines the whole and requires the "well you gotta love'em, it's a leica" mentality.

I could quite easily specify the perfect camera but no one seems to want to build one ;-)
well,

In one sense you are absolutely right,

I have seen talented people take photos with pinhole cameras that I
could not approach and I am simply amazed by their vision and
talent. bit saying that...

the right equipment for the right person can make that person a
better photographer

and better equipment, better lenses and most importantly the right
tool will allow one to be a better photographer.

quite frankly an M series Leica is NOT the right tool for everyone,
is certainly NOT the right tool for every job, but it is a modern
recreation of a tool that I personally thought was lost for the
digital age.

For me, and I repeat for me, for the kind of photography I enjoy, I
am simply a better photographer using a rangefinder and the Leica M
is simply the best overall 35mm rangefinder that has been made. A
rfdr allows ME to better visualize the image before hand, to better
frame without distraction. I enjoy the process. It makes me a
better photographer. This does not mean that I am a great
photographer, merely that it make me better. The design is
intelligent. I can use lenses that I have owned for over 20 years
that still compete with modern designs and the simplicity allows me
to use the system without worrying about reading the manual. If
the picture does not come out, it is more likely that it is due to
my lack of photographic skill than my lack of understanding which
button to press.

Do I think a Leica is pricey. Yes. OTOH I just printed some
images from my little M8 which rival MF images in detail in color
right to the edges. I had to decide whether to use an IR cut
filter, to use an external finder, considereded using a tripod,
used raw and recojnstructed to 26 Mb.. in short I was involved with
the photographic process and I enjoyed every minute of it. I have
done similar things with lesser results with my Canons, but did not
feels as involved. The Leica encourages that and somehow to me the
photographic process feels more transparent than with the Canons.

In the end it is only a tool, but if the tool fits your hand
better. it gets yused more and produces better work. For many
here, including me, the M8 fits this category and brings back a joy
to the process of taking pictures that ultimately leads to better
photos for that individual.

As to the cost, when one con siders that a film M7 costs 3.5K and a
digital M8 costs 4.8K, merely 30% more whereas the 3K 5D cost what
3-5x the comparable film danon body. the Leica seems a bargain. In
addition, though expensive, I should point out most of my 20-40
year old Leica lenses (and 20 year old bodies) are worth as much or
more than I paid for them originally. This is due to the
uncompromising detail and quality put into many of the Leica M
lenses (and for which you are paying - that last 5-10% is what
costs the most). Even, were they not, handling and using these 20
year old lense, eg: my prized type 4 chrome 35 F2 Summicron, is
like using a lens built yesterday, still outperforms almost
everything on the market. If it were worthnothing today, Would it
have been expensive at its original price?

To appreciate these tools, you have to use them and enjoy the
process, if not you are absolutely right, you will not get it, and
in fact it would be a simple waste of money or be purchased as a
"status symbol" In fact, I have purchased most of my Leica gear
from those who have bought Leica gear for the wrong reasons and
never used it.

Hope this rambling helps,

Ed
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I have a Ricoh 500RF. It has an electronic leaf shutter that goes "click". Your Leica will sound like a jack hammer in comparison. Your point is?
I don't see any reason to malign the rangefinder. It's neccessary
when you don't want a mirror making all that noise.

My M5 so silent, no mirror and a rubberized cloth shutter. I have
the Canon EOS 1-V 35mm film camera and it's excellent but it's
large and it is not as silent as my Leica.

I have the EOS 1Ds Mark II and it's very excellent but still not as
silent asy M5.
--
Artist Eyes
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Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
 
What's the Cosina RD-1 like to use?
;-)

Tim
This is exactly what I do (did, when I used it) with my 5D, which
had so many user-definable dials and options that I found it easier
to work this way...

Best

Tim
Is it true that the M8 offers no dedicated control for exp
compensation and that you have to go to the menu for what it just
about the most important adjustment (like some £75 P&S)?
In any event my own impression is that compared to various DSLRs
I've used it is far from awkward or cumbersome. The opposite in
most respects. It is fast and light and easy. But then I haven't
used any film Leicas so maybe that's where I'm going wrong!

In any event - Irakly's recent post about the pain of seeing his go
back for the fix matches the experience of so many of us that maybe
you can see that even though you don't 'get it', many of us do !

Best

Tim
He was being ironic
Maybe he was...but I read his review of the M8 and it matches his
reply.
--
http://dwinnert.zenfolio.com
D200, F4s, Ricoh GR, Canon A620
Nikon 70-300VR, Sigma 18-50/2.8, Nikon 50/1.8 and 35/2.0
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If you want to hear some beautifull music.

Cra* it's made of wood?? Where's the amp? What I have to play it to make it work?
--
Artist Eyes
 
Can you use the Leica lenses on the 5D?

ps

I'm still unconvinced by "legendary lenses". Was reading a shoot out of 50mm lenses the other day, including the Zeiss T* lenses. Conclusion: there is very little difference between a T* and a Zenith lens at this focal length. Nikon, Pentax, Minolta, Zeiss, Canon, Pentacon, the lot were soft wide open and bitingly sharp by f4 or 5.6...

And I saw an interesting comparison of famous brand 20mm primes against a cheap 18-125 sigma zoom. On APS/DX formats the Sigma beat the primes even wide open...
Tim
I think the differences between even budget CD players and
expensive kit is pretty small. And those differences quickly fade
as you get used to them, such is the nature of human perception.

I recently spent 2 afternoons in listening rooms researching a new
CD player to replace my 17 year old Rotel budget player. Ended up
with a new unit with fancy dual Wolf something or other highend
DACs.

But you know what, now I have it home, the sound might actually be
somewhat less enjoyable than the old one :-)

Whether it is or not the improvements are barely discernable -
despite 17 years of technical development and the 5* ratings
from the snake oil merchants audio press...

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
--
Gallery: http://web.mac.com/tashley1/iWeb/timashley.com/Home.html
Blog: http://timashley.wordpress.com/
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
 
Quite handy to have retained a mount for so long. However, some of those old lenses might not be quite so good as nostalgia suggests.

I have a couple of Schneider lenses for 5x4. One is a modern symmar, the other an ancient angulon. Large format is forgiving and the Angulon can produce fine images but it is really cra*p compared to the modern multicoated, computer corrected lens...
I enjoyed reading your thoughts on "timeless tools" - one of the
incredible things about the M8 is that it preserves your investment
in Leica lenses - remarkable in this day and age of rapid
obsolescence. The following shot is posted on Scott Kirkpatrick's
pbase page, was made with the M8 and a summicron 50/2 from the
1950's:



I find it highly praiseworthy that old tools still are useful this
far down the digital road.

--
-Steve
'Living is not enough -- we have to talk about it' -(Samuel Beckett)
--
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But isn't a leica quite large compared to most compacts (film or
digital)?

Something like an oly XA or a Rollie LED is much smaller and more
pocketable...
Sure but the Leica has 2 strengths, interchangeable lenses and full manual control (not to mention durability), so its not just pocket-ability

although I have owned the other 2 cameras you mention (Rollei 35 with sonnar) none come close as photographic tools in the absolute sense.
Mark
--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
 
You know Dave, if you take your statement that your Ricoh makes my Leica sound like a jackhammer

and compare it against my statement that "your full of it",

which do you think is more accurate?

I say to you -if you don't like the Leica, then fine that's a personal choice. Just don't insult it the way you have been.
--
Artist Eyes
 
Likewise, if you learned on a camera with manual controls, changing settings and using your meter for exposure compensation is no more demanding than focusing or pressing the shutter. You are more aware of what is happening, but it becomes just a part of the process, no more difficult than picking your nose.
If (like most europeans) you learn to drive in manual gearbox cars
("stick shift" - what a quaint expression - I call it the "gear
lever") changing gear is no more a demanding part of driving than
turning the wheel or pressing the brake pedal....
--



Technical Info: Roseart U.S.A. Gold #2 pencil, Pentel High Polymer eraser, Academie sketch pad drawing paper. Drawn clumsily under relatively poor light.

http://www.geocities.com/wild_tiger_1

http://flickr.com/photos/selrahcharles/
 
It's just that you must have posted - what 15 to 20 posts here on this one thread and many of them are just knocking Leica in as many ways as you can think of-that's got me so riled.
--
Artist Eyes
 
I appreciate the benefits of interchangeable lenses and the limitations (in general) of fixed lens compacts but the Leica has never really been a compact camera (compared to modern compacts) - it is bigger than some SLRs! I'm unconvinced it has a strong case as a carry anywhere choice.

It seems to me that what you are getting for your money is the combination of a small format camera that gives high quality results in a beautifully engineered package.

Fair enough, I can appreciate that but I'm still unconvinced as to the rangefinder advantage.
But isn't a leica quite large compared to most compacts (film or
digital)?

Something like an oly XA or a Rollie LED is much smaller and more
pocketable...
Sure but the Leica has 2 strengths, interchangeable lenses and full
manual control (not to mention durability), so its not just
pocket-ability
although I have owned the other 2 cameras you mention (Rollei 35
with sonnar) none come close as photographic tools in the absolute
sense.
Mark
--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
 
My first camera was a German Beirette - no rangefinder, no meter. That was followed by a Zorki 4K rangefinder and a Zenith E SLR with onboard but uncoupled meter. I later advanced on to exciting Practikas with genuine TTL meters (stop down only of course). I sure learned the basics on basic stuff. But I would argue that the speed advantage of aperture priority + exp comp is far superior to manual exp mode any day.
If (like most europeans) you learn to drive in manual gearbox cars
("stick shift" - what a quaint expression - I call it the "gear
lever") changing gear is no more a demanding part of driving than
turning the wheel or pressing the brake pedal....
--



Technical Info: Roseart U.S.A. Gold #2 pencil, Pentel High Polymer
eraser, Academie sketch pad drawing paper. Drawn clumsily under
relatively poor light.

http://www.geocities.com/wild_tiger_1

http://flickr.com/photos/selrahcharles/
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
 

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