pixesl vs zoom

Matt,
You could very well be right that 3X is practical for most people.!

But, that is only because most people have never experienced the whole new world out there to photograph, that was previously out of bounds for them till they had that long zoom.. The best thing is to never have owned a UZi or a 10X lens (especially with IS) because you would never,and I mean NEVER, want to be armed with any less focal reach again.

BTW , screwing that tele extender on and off (and you must use a tube adapter too) soon gets to be a real pain in the butt. However , screw that same tele extender lens on the UZI ,(no tube needed) and you are practically into digiscoping. Another world opened up for us UZIers. JD
Matt.
Why compromise at all. The best prosumer digicam - The Canon G2,
can be had for $549 by using AMEX's Price Matching Service. Just
do a search in the Canon Forum under AMEX Price Match.

Good Luck...
Matt.
I am about to buy my first digital camera. I have researched the
c-2100 it looks great to me. I am concerned about the fact that it
is only 2 megs. Given the fact that I am on a limitied budget.
($500.00) I need advise. Should I go with more megs and less lens.
I shoot alot of nature shots and the typical family photos. Thanks
in advance for opions.
 
Never said it can be done in ALL cases. Maybe I was unclear at this
point. Let me rephrase. When I say "How many shots do you have like
this anyway?" then I'm actually trying to say...

-What is the percentage of pictures that you want to have enlarged?
I want to be able to enlarge all of them. In general, I don't know which specific one(s) I will enlarge until I have studied the image(s) a bit.
-Out of those what is the percentage of pictures with moving
objects (which cannot be snapped in panorama mode)?
Something like 98%.
-And out of these, are there any that you can enlarge on PC with
special enlargement functions (interpolating or what's it called)?
I'd like to hear what special enlargement functions exist that increase the resolution. I don't know of any.
-Now what is the final count of pictures with moving objects that
you'd like to enlarge?
About 98%
My guess is: very few. Is is worth buying a 3MP camera just for
these? I'm guessing the number of pictures where you'd like to have
more than 3X zoom is much higher.

Conclusion; go for the zoom, not the MP.
That really is a style question. There isn't one answer that applies to everybody.
A good example is your basketball game: I'm guessing that you
already had to zoom beyond 3X for most pics anyway. So the 3X
camera is already out...
Not for a shot of the whole game and crowd in one picture.
Think about it.
I have been thinking about the issue of what lens to use for what picture for many years. My conclusion is that there is no single lens that will do everything. Also, there is no single camera that will do everything.

The trade-off of megapixels vs. zoom is just one of many such issues. The correct choice depends on what you are trying to do, and on how much money you have to do it.

The original question in this thread was, "Should I go with more megs and less lens." To say that there is exactly one answer is simplistic at best.
 
Bill,

I'm not saying there is only one answer in the zoom vs pixels debate! I'm only saying that for the majority of people they should go for zoom and not for pixels. Nowadays, they do the opposite because they are misinformed.

Follow me on this one:

A "Joe Average" wants to buy his first digicam, and steps into a shop. The salesman will 99.9% of the times say: "go for the 3MP as you can enlarge these to A4 (letter) size without having the chance of getting bad print results".

Now THAT is a very simplistic reasoning!

But to the salesman it makes sense as a 3MP chip costs more, so he earns more money. Of course, our Joe Average is buying the story. After all, he's used to getting ALL his pics printed, so he thinks he will do the same with every digital shot he makes.

This is what our Joe Average forgets:

-Once you own a digital camera, you get "trigger happy". After all, you can take as much pics as you want, it doesn't cost anything (yet).

-A 2MP shot (1600x1200) will look incredible on a 21" screen or a TV, but can never be enlarged to the same size on paper. The highest you can (hopefully) go is 8x10 (A4- or lettersize).

-Printing shots will cost money, about as much as film prints, but probably even more as you would rather like bigger prints (as you are already used to seeing them in a bigger size on your PC).

-You could print yourself, but you'll have to buy a printer, color cartridges and foto paper. These cost money too, especially the paper.

-There is free sofware on the web to create digital albums. Albums that can be put on CD and can be shown on PC or on your TV (via DVD).

-Pics on paper will eventually fade away (20 years?), but there is no color loss on any digital format.

-Digital formats can be changed to a newer and maybe better format later, and techniques may evolve. But prints...

Being an average Joe myself, I quickly came to the conclusion that from now on I'd only need printouts for other people who want a copy of my pics, and especially people who do not have the knowledge of the latest technology (like elderly people). And maybe I'd also need one or two pics to hang on my wall or put on my desk.

Seel, you're certainly not the "Joe Average" out there Bill, as you say you'd like 98% of your shots printed out as enlargements. To me, printing 10% of my shots is closer to the truth. But as I said in my previous message, out of those 10% not all will need to be enlarged to A4 size. Maybe only half of them (and now I'm already over-estimating). And out of those 5%, there may be some that I could have taken with panorama mode, or that I could enlarge further with enlargement techniques in editing software.

Also, for some of these pics the extra 1MP may not be needed, as they enlarge just fine to A4 format, because the object itself has not got that much detail in it, or because I have a superior lens that compensates for (at least part of) the extra megapixels of the other camera.

My guess is: about 2 to 3% of all the 2MP pictures of "Joe Average" will have "a problem" because he wants them printed AND enlarged. Well, the "problem" is just that they will have slightly less detail than a 3MP pic. That's something he can probably live with.

Now the question is: is it worth investing that much money into a bigger chip, just for those pics? Or would you rather invest that money (or part of that money) in a better lens with more zoom reach?

Now, zoom reach is something awkward: everybody out there will say "I'm quite pleased with my 3X" ...until they get used to more!

And once you have that extra zoom and start calculating the number of pics where you needed more than 3X, you'd be very surprised.

Ask yourself these questions:

-How much pics turned up only average because you could not get close enough? (Your kid is playing in the garden but his "pose" is unnatural as he was aware of your camera as you were "in his face", or the action shot of Michael Jordan slammin that BBall in the oponents net, ...)?

-How much pics were not taken at all, as you just could not get there (the rare bird on your lawn, the butterfly on your kids head, ...)?

You'd be surprised what pics you can take with that extra zoom. And you'd be surprised how many! More than 2 or 3%, I can tell you that! How does 30% sound? It's like that for me. And I am just a Joe Average; my previous cam was a Nikon Nuvis APS 3X zoom.

-I can live with the fact that some of my pics cannot be printed at A4 size with the same amount of detail as a 3MP camera; I just print them at a bit less than 8x10 (7x8.75 ?) and the jaggies dissapear...

-But now that I have 10X I know that I could no longer live with a 3X as I know now how much good opportunities & thus pics I missed in the past.

So the conclusion for our "Joe Average" will have to be: go for the zoom, not the pixels.

Of course, I agree this is only part of the story. A lot of other factors are important as well: the quality of the lens, the possibilities of your camera for special situations (portraits, low-light,...), the quality of your CCD (lot of people forget that one 2MP chip is not like the other 2MP chip), ... and last but not least the capabilities of the photographer.

Ciao,

J.
 
"Joe Average" is unlikely to ever do better than an average shot, no matter what equipment he uses. He certianly doesn't want to look at his pictures enlarged to a size that show the flaws.

Not the basis I'd recommend using to pick a camera.

It is certainly true that the UZi fits the desires and budget of many people. it is also true that it does not fit the desires and budget of everyone. People should try to understand what they want to do, and find the camera that best fits within their budget. Fits their own needs/desires/budget, not what fits "Joe Average".
 
"Joe Average" is unlikely to ever do better than an average shot,
no matter what equipment he uses. He certianly doesn't want to
look at his pictures enlarged to a size that show the flaws.

Not the basis I'd recommend using to pick a camera.

It is certainly true that the UZi fits the desires and budget of
many people. it is also true that it does not fit the desires and
budget of everyone. People should try to understand what they want
to do, and find the camera that best fits within their budget.
Fits their own needs/desires/budget, not what fits "Joe Average".
I'm not trying to convince anyone into buying an UZi (altough I like my camera and I do recommend it)...

What I'm trying to make "Joe Average the tourist" understand is that he should go for "more zoom, less pixels" instead of "more pixels, less zoom". After all, "more pixels, more zoom" is too much for his budget.

Joe Average would be surprised what pics he can take with his average skills and a good digicam.

There are a lot of cameras out there that are a better value for his money than the "3X zoom 3(or 4)MP CCD" ones. Maybe he doesn't need the 10X of the C700, the UZi or the Pro90IS, but he could certainly use a 5X-6X like the F505, D5, Fuji 6900, etc...

If he looks hard enough, he can certainly find one of those that is much cheaper than say ...the S304.
 
Of interest when comparing various digicams is the point where two camera with differing focal lengths and pixels are exactly equal. That is, the point where the camera with the lesser number of pixels, but greater zoom, begins to have the advantage. This is easy to compute using the FM equation. Merely set the pixels of the smaller CCD times an unknown FL squared as being equal to the larger CCD times it’s FL squared. In the previous example this would be 1,920,00 x Y = 152 x 152 x 3,145,728. The answer comes out to be a FL of 194.56mm. Since the wide angle FL of the smaller CCD camera is 38mm, 194.56mm equates to a zoom of 5.12X. That is, when the smaller CCD camera passes 5X magnification it also passes the larger CCD camera in capability. Up to that point the larger CCD camera will be able put more pixels in the image.

Rodger
 
Thanks for sharing this Roger but a couple other considerations are:

1. More zoom will allow shallower DOF resuting in a blurred background where simply cropping a Higher MP image will not.

2. Greater focal length allows subjects to appear more compressed, (closer together in the frame), another benefit of a telephoto lens which again, simply cropping more MP's will not do.

Regards,

Bob
Rodger Carter wrote:
Of interest when comparing various digicams is the point where two
camera with differing focal lengths and pixels are exactly equal.
That is, the point where the camera with the lesser number of
pixels, but greater zoom, begins to have the advantage. This is
easy to compute using the FM equation. Merely set the pixels of
the smaller CCD times an unknown FL squared as being equal to the
larger CCD times it’s FL squared. In the previous example
this would be 1,920,00 x Y = 152 x 152 x 3,145,728. The answer
comes out to be a FL of 194.56mm. Since the wide angle FL of the
smaller CCD camera is 38mm, 194.56mm equates to a zoom of 5.12X.
That is, when the smaller CCD camera passes 5X magnification it
also passes the larger CCD camera in capability. Up to that point
the larger CCD camera will be able put more pixels in the image.

Rodger
--www.pbase.com/mofongo'The most beautiful sunsets are made by cloudy skies.'
 

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