X3 Announcement Impacts sales!!!!

sarbos · Feb 12, 2002

Hey Karlg!

Did you know that the president of IBM once said that it could be a market for about... 5 computers all over the world?

Did you know that generals at the begining of the great war though that those flying machines were interesting but of no use for military purpouses?

Did you know that a lot of people though that the automovil would never replace the horse?

Did you know that there are some people that still think that digital photography is not "real" photography?

Do you know that some people think that the FOVEON is just marketing?
;-)

Please go to:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/Html/news/news_sd9_fs.htm

See you!
Sarbos

Igor R. · Feb 12, 2002

sarbos said:
ME!
I'm a devoted Canonist, from a decade ago....
but I've just saw the light...
I read a lot of pages about the different ways and algorithms of
bayer interpolation, and how to implement them, in fact I'm
programing a java aplication with a better interpolation system
than canon's based ... oks... I WAS!
I was dreaming about the new D60 (cause can afford the D1S) and
it's features, but now... I only want to know about that Sigma SD9
camera!
Who cares about 6mp if they are interpolated... it's like fuji's
super (fake) CCD with a resolution that's twice it's real pixel
count, the 6mp is really a 3mp for green and 1,5 for blue and red,
if you compare it with the new foeveon (my personal opinion! that
is)
Oks, I'm excited!
BTW:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/Html/news/news_sd9_fs.htm
see you!
Sarbos
(hoping that canon will jump to foeveon)

sarbos said:

Lenses with 3.5MP imager when Canon has a 6MP camera that can take
Canon and Sigma and many other 3rd Party lenses. It is going to
take a LOT of marketing to explain to people why the Sigma pixels
are so much better.

Click to expand...

Me too!

I was going to purchase Canon G2 until yesterday. but after I head about X3 technology, I don't wanna hear anything about old 1-layer digicams. The fact that these 3-6 megapixels form current cameras are interpolated was disturding my brain for a while, I was seeing those terrable arthefacts like pixelized red, rainbow-like lines that seposed to be white, and many other sh*t. Thats why I'm steel using film. But now, after I heard about Foveon's new technology, I'm seriousely thinking about swiching to the digital.

One thing that I could say: "Thank you, Foveon!!! You did what I was expecting for a while!"

Homer40784 · Feb 12, 2002

Karlg said:
A. How do you know it will be superior in all stituations and that
it will cost less to make?

Because Cmos is inherrantly cheaper to make than Charge Coupled Devices. That's a given.

Karl Guttag said:
B. I will be taking pictures while you are waiting to see what is
better than the X3 when some other company announces it.

Many of us on this board (Most) already have "some" kind of Digicam. We will keep taking pictures too. But the "upgrade" will be delayed until the sub $1000 cameras come. And they will.

Karl Guttag said:
Are you still wait on GM to build a car with the Mazda rotory
engine (everyone was talking how it was going to replace all the
engine back in the 1970's)? Are you still waiting for the
SiliconFilm product to go in your film body. Are you waiting for
all those dot-com stocks rebound?

Are you still driving a car with points in the distributor? Drum Brakes?
Are you still using a Box Brownie?
Are you still keeping your money in a matress?

Your analogies are not related to this isssue. Neither are mine.. Analogies rarely are.

What we are talking about here is a very specific case that could advance the Digicam technology a tremendous amount in a single step. A giant step as it were.

No one here is advocating placing an order for a Sigma or any other camera that includes the Foveon chip.

But many (most?) are willing to give it the benefit of the doubt at this point based on the explanation of the technology (many here are technologists), the excitement of Phil, and the very short time until we find out for sure.

But none of us (yourself included) are doing the reverse. That is none of us are denigrating a technology that we haven't sen yet. One that we feel is inherrantly superior in design concept to what is currently available.

Hang in there Karl. Caution is one thing, but denying the future is quite another.

Homer

Jan Boeijink · Feb 12, 2002

Count me in.

Peter G · Feb 12, 2002

I am stunned by the overwhelming response indicating you will all wait for X 3.

While I think the technology is great and that it will suceed, I sincerely doubt that my next camera will be X 3.

There are only 2 sensors due this year folks!

The SLR one that Sigma is using and a 1.3 MP Consumer sensor. So which are you waiting for the SLR or the 1.3MP.

For me the SLR is out of my price range and I won't buy a 1.3MP camera. Yes they are better quality pixels BUT not by a 3:1 ratio. Bayer interpolation is just not that bad.

3MP is my minimum resolution even if X 3. So when will we see Consumer 3mp Cameras with X 3? 2003? When will it be in a a camera that you actually want?? 2004?? 2005?

Or you can get your 1.3MP camera while I get a 5mp (with inferior pixels).

I feel a Seqway coming on.

Peter

Igor R. · Feb 12, 2002

Peter G said:
I am stunned by the overwhelming response indicating you will all
wait for X 3.

While I think the technology is great and that it will suceed, I
sincerely doubt that my next camera will be X 3.

There are only 2 sensors due this year folks!

The SLR one that Sigma is using and a 1.3 MP Consumer sensor. So
which are you waiting for the SLR or the 1.3MP.

For me the SLR is out of my price range and I won't buy a 1.3MP
camera. Yes they are better quality pixels BUT not by a 3:1 ratio.
Bayer interpolation is just not that bad.

3MP is my minimum resolution even if X 3. So when will we see
Consumer 3mp Cameras with X 3? 2003? When will it be in a a camera
that you actually want?? 2004?? 2005?

Well, nobody is saying that you cann't use film cameras during this period, thats what I'm actually doing.

BTW, I don't think that it will take so long, maybe new Nikon D2 will be based on X3 sensor, nobody yet knows, cuz they are hiding this info until they will develop camera to the minimum stage required to be annonsed.

Paul W. Walters · Feb 12, 2002

Peter,

The 3.5 MP Sensor isn't a SLR sensor. It's just a Sensor. It is being used in the first camera to use X3 technology, which is a DSLR. This same sensor can be placed in other types of cameras. Believe me, we won't be waiting until 2004 for this technology to grab hold (if it's as good as it looks).

This is a new, groundbreaking technology that is coming out WITH an introduction of a camera to use it! The camera will be available in May, it sounds like. By that time we should here of many other cameras using this same 3.5 MP X3 sensor. And I'm sure they won't all be SLR's.

Peter G said:
There are only 2 sensors due this year folks!

The SLR one that Sigma is using and a 1.3 MP Consumer sensor. So
which are you waiting for the SLR or the 1.3MP.

CRT_Leech26711 · Feb 12, 2002

Igor Radionoff said:
Igor R. said:

ME!
I'm a devoted Canonist, from a decade ago....
but I've just saw the light...
I read a lot of pages about the different ways and algorithms of
bayer interpolation, and how to implement them, in fact I'm
programing a java aplication with a better interpolation system
than canon's based ... oks... I WAS!
I was dreaming about the new D60 (cause can afford the D1S) and
it's features, but now... I only want to know about that Sigma SD9
camera!
Who cares about 6mp if they are interpolated... it's like fuji's
super (fake) CCD with a resolution that's twice it's real pixel
count, the 6mp is really a 3mp for green and 1,5 for blue and red,
if you compare it with the new foeveon (my personal opinion! that
is)
Oks, I'm excited!
BTW:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/Html/news/news_sd9_fs.htm
see you!
Sarbos
(hoping that canon will jump to foeveon)

Igor R. said:

Lenses with 3.5MP imager when Canon has a 6MP camera that can take
Canon and Sigma and many other 3rd Party lenses. It is going to
take a LOT of marketing to explain to people why the Sigma pixels
are so much better.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Me too!
I was going to purchase Canon G2 until yesterday. but after I head
about X3 technology, I don't wanna hear anything about old 1-layer
digicams. The fact that these 3-6 megapixels form current cameras
are interpolated was disturding my brain for a while, I was seeing
those terrable arthefacts like pixelized red, rainbow-like lines
that seposed to be white, and many other sh*t. Thats why I'm steel
using film. But now, after I heard about Foveon's new technology,
I'm seriousely thinking about swiching to the digital.
One thing that I could say: "Thank you, Foveon!!! You did what I
was expecting for a while!"

If Canon can get this sensor in a package similar to the G1/2, with all those features, without any of the little quirks and this image quality...wow.

I was going to get the G2. I was happy with the G1, but I had to return it for financial reasons (lost my job a week after getting it LOL).

I'll be waiting with anticipation like many others on what comes of this technology.

I would like to see something in the $1,000 range, similar to a G2. Microdrive, External Flash, IR range finder instead of visible light, with a visible light red-eye reduction, RAW, remote control, remote usage with a computer, etc.....

Laters,
CRT_Leech

Thanasis Siozos · Feb 12, 2002

I hope they plummet even more, so i can get an E-20 @ $500

zorro said:
Headlines for the next 6 Months!!!!

"Sales of digital cameras/video cams have plummetted these last
months as tens of thousands of consumers postpone buying till there
favorite camera companies introduce cams using the new X3
Technology"

Please comment on what you think this announcement's impact on
sales will be.

We already have a few posters here on these forums saying they will
now wait to purchase.

Do you think this will be a slow adoption like the start of cd's or
a fast revolution like DVD Players.

Have you checked the price of VCRs lately? They can't give em away
at $59.95

Peter G · Feb 12, 2002

You are underestimating the cost of DSLR sized sensors. Even though this technology is supposed to be less expensive, they don't consider the 4/3" sensor to be a consumer sensor.

I would be willing to bet that this sensor won't appear in any camera for MSRP of under $1750 US in 2002.

I would be happy to be wrong, but doubt it.

Peter

Paul W. Walters said:
This is a new, groundbreaking technology that is coming out WITH an
introduction of a camera to use it! The camera will be available
in May, it sounds like. By that time we should here of many other
cameras using this same 3.5 MP X3 sensor. And I'm sure they won't
all be SLR's.

Peter G said:

There are only 2 sensors due this year folks!

The SLR one that Sigma is using and a 1.3 MP Consumer sensor. So
which are you waiting for the SLR or the 1.3MP.

Click to expand...

Seth Brundle · Feb 12, 2002

Um, I understand that this means new cameras are coming out that render current ones obsolete - and I'm selling my Dimage 7 on Ebay tommorrow.

Hated that camera anyway.

Keith said:
zorro said:

Headlines for the next 6 Months!!!!

"Sales of digital cameras/video cams have plummetted these last
months as tens of thousands of consumers postpone buying till there
favorite camera companies introduce cams using the new X3
Technology"

Please comment on what you think this announcement's impact on
sales will be.

We already have a few posters here on these forums saying they will
now wait to purchase.

Do you think this will be a slow adoption like the start of cd's or
a fast revolution like DVD Players.

Have you checked the price of VCRs lately? They can't give em away
at $59.95

Click to expand...

Seth Brundle · Feb 12, 2002

The big question is how a fringe camera maker like Sigma scored the first camera - any thoughts on this ???

Blokey Bloggs said:
Yes. I cannot imagine anyone who does not 'need' a new camera
wanting to buy asnything until this X3 is reviewed and used. Sigma
pulled a smart one here.

I find it hard to believe that Canon Nikon Olympus etc are not
aware of this type of technology. They must be working on something
similar or already using X3. If not then they are now at Foveon's
door to buy. If the latter then they must be panicking for their
investments look a little unsafe.

I fervently hope that this leads to some sanity over pricing. So
far, it has a monumental rip-off.
--
Blokey
http://www.pbase.com/blokey/galleries

Seth Brundle · Feb 12, 2002

Here's another question:

Supposedly one significant advantage of this chip is that it can focus digitally rather then moving optics - Foveon says moving optics to focus a digital camera is 'stupid'.

Assuming it can achieve the same or better focusing results, of course its stupid, since why create mechanisms to move optics if its unnecessary.

But the Sigma seems to use traditional Sigma lenses. I assume we will have to wait for a later model to take advantage of real digital focusing....

Igor Radionoff said:
Igor R. said:

ME!
I'm a devoted Canonist, from a decade ago....
but I've just saw the light...
I read a lot of pages about the different ways and algorithms of
bayer interpolation, and how to implement them, in fact I'm
programing a java aplication with a better interpolation system
than canon's based ... oks... I WAS!
I was dreaming about the new D60 (cause can afford the D1S) and
it's features, but now... I only want to know about that Sigma SD9
camera!
Who cares about 6mp if they are interpolated... it's like fuji's
super (fake) CCD with a resolution that's twice it's real pixel
count, the 6mp is really a 3mp for green and 1,5 for blue and red,
if you compare it with the new foeveon (my personal opinion! that
is)
Oks, I'm excited!
BTW:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/Html/news/news_sd9_fs.htm
see you!
Sarbos
(hoping that canon will jump to foeveon)

Igor R. said:

Lenses with 3.5MP imager when Canon has a 6MP camera that can take
Canon and Sigma and many other 3rd Party lenses. It is going to
take a LOT of marketing to explain to people why the Sigma pixels
are so much better.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Me too!
I was going to purchase Canon G2 until yesterday. but after I head
about X3 technology, I don't wanna hear anything about old 1-layer
digicams. The fact that these 3-6 megapixels form current cameras
are interpolated was disturding my brain for a while, I was seeing
those terrable arthefacts like pixelized red, rainbow-like lines
that seposed to be white, and many other sh*t. Thats why I'm steel
using film. But now, after I heard about Foveon's new technology,
I'm seriousely thinking about swiching to the digital.
One thing that I could say: "Thank you, Foveon!!! You did what I
was expecting for a while!"

Seth Brundle · Feb 12, 2002

Karl Guttag said:
A. How do you know it will be superior in all stituations and that
it will cost less to make?

Well, Foveon says it costs 1/5 the price of a conventional CCD. I assume this is true since they have already manufactured them.

I dont see how a traditional CCD, which uses algorythms to determine all the colors it cant see (ie about half!) would be superior in any situation.

You cant make a better photograph with an imaging sensor that can only record data for half of the colors another imaging sensor can record.

Karl Guttag said:
B. I will be taking pictures while you are waiting to see what is
better than the X3 when some other company announces it.

Um, we all will. I think pretty much everyone here isnt going to stop taking pictures because a better camera is coming out - ?

Why, as a digital photographer who has actually seen real test pictures, are you so pessimistic?

Seth Brundle · Feb 12, 2002

Well the Sigma is rumoured to be $3000, which is in right line with its SLR interchangeable-lens competition.

Based on that I cant imagine why point and shoots will be more when you are replacing a part which costs less to produce and doesnt require as much software to implement.

Peter G said:
I would be willing to bet that this sensor won't appear in any
camera for MSRP of under $1750 US in 2002.

I would be happy to be wrong, but doubt it.

Peter

Paul W. Walters said:

This is a new, groundbreaking technology that is coming out WITH an
introduction of a camera to use it! The camera will be available
in May, it sounds like. By that time we should here of many other
cameras using this same 3.5 MP X3 sensor. And I'm sure they won't
all be SLR's.

Peter G said:

There are only 2 sensors due this year folks!

The SLR one that Sigma is using and a 1.3 MP Consumer sensor. So
which are you waiting for the SLR or the 1.3MP.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Peter G · Feb 12, 2002

And do you see any of the competition using SLR sized sensors in P&S cameras?

Seth Brundle said:
Based on that I cant imagine why point and shoots will be more when
you are replacing a part which costs less to produce and doesnt
require as much software to implement.

Peter G said:

I would be willing to bet that this sensor won't appear in any
camera for MSRP of under $1750 US in 2002.

I would be happy to be wrong, but doubt it.

Peter

Paul W. Walters said:

This is a new, groundbreaking technology that is coming out WITH an
introduction of a camera to use it! The camera will be available
in May, it sounds like. By that time we should here of many other
cameras using this same 3.5 MP X3 sensor. And I'm sure they won't
all be SLR's.

Peter G said:

There are only 2 sensors due this year folks!

The SLR one that Sigma is using and a 1.3 MP Consumer sensor. So
which are you waiting for the SLR or the 1.3MP.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Jagan N. Seshadri · Feb 12, 2002

Seth Brundle said:
Supposedly one significant advantage of this chip is that it can
focus digitally rather then moving optics - Foveon says moving
optics to focus a digital camera is 'stupid'.

Where did they say that? How do you figure that would work? I would guess they could use some DSP technique like deconvolution, but it would be noise city....

-Jagan

Karl Guttag · Feb 12, 2002

And a lot of people put all their money in Enron

--Karl

David SL · Feb 12, 2002

True Peter,

You don't see today's large size CCD's/CMOS chips in P&S cameras but that's mostly because they are far more expensive to produce for the chip makers and buy for the camera makers. If the X3 chips are as easy to produce and as cheap to produce as Foveon says they are, then the costs will fall rapidly as volume ramps up (Just as processor prices fall quickly in the months after a new Intel or AMD chip is released). If the DC manufacturers beat a path to Foveon's door they'll certianly be ramping up production, and over near time reducing costs. It's a good thing they've partnered with National Semi to make the chips, as they have extensive Fabrication facilities. I am with you though that waiting or even hoping for X3 sensor based cameras (with mp greater than 3.5) other than the announced Sigma is a wish not likely to be granted this year.

Regards,

Dsl

Peter G said:
Seth Brundle said:

Based on that I cant imagine why point and shoots will be more when
you are replacing a part which costs less to produce and doesnt
require as much software to implement.

Peter G said:

I would be willing to bet that this sensor won't appear in any
camera for MSRP of under $1750 US in 2002.

I would be happy to be wrong, but doubt it.

Peter

Paul W. Walters said:

This is a new, groundbreaking technology that is coming out WITH an
introduction of a camera to use it! The camera will be available
in May, it sounds like. By that time we should here of many other
cameras using this same 3.5 MP X3 sensor. And I'm sure they won't
all be SLR's.

Peter G said:

There are only 2 sensors due this year folks!

The SLR one that Sigma is using and a 1.3 MP Consumer sensor. So
which are you waiting for the SLR or the 1.3MP.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--DSL

Karl Guttag · Feb 12, 2002

I assume that the 1280 by 960 by 3 sensor (F10) is aimed at the P&S market. In spite of the advantages of the X3 technology, I think that is going to be a tough sell in to the P&S market.

What little evidence we have suggests that, propably due to the electronics, there is a limit on how small they can make the sensor. My guess is that there is a "Fill Factor" issue with 3 sets of 3 transitors in each X3 pixel. This limits the minimum size. I would also guess there are diffusion well spacing limitations.

The $3,000 Sigma will, most likely, be competing with a $3,000 D60 with a 6MP Bayer sensor. Unless there is a demonstrable advantage, my bet would be on the Canon to win more market share.

Karl

Peter G said:
Seth Brundle said:

Based on that I cant imagine why point and shoots will be more when
you are replacing a part which costs less to produce and doesnt
require as much software to implement.

Peter G said:

I would be willing to bet that this sensor won't appear in any
camera for MSRP of under $1750 US in 2002.

I would be happy to be wrong, but doubt it.

Peter

Paul W. Walters said:

This is a new, groundbreaking technology that is coming out WITH an
introduction of a camera to use it! The camera will be available
in May, it sounds like. By that time we should here of many other
cameras using this same 3.5 MP X3 sensor. And I'm sure they won't
all be SLR's.

Peter G said:

There are only 2 sensors due this year folks!

The SLR one that Sigma is using and a 1.3 MP Consumer sensor. So
which are you waiting for the SLR or the 1.3MP.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--Karl

X3 Announcement Impacts sales!!!!

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