2.8 L apeture requirements for auto focus on 1DMk2N

Hi,

Your images look great. Football isn't as "fast" as snow skiing and the surface isn't all white. Do you think both of those factors make the difference?

When I first bought the camera (1D Mark 2N) I had reasonable luck with all 45 points in auto focus, although in reality the keepers were about the same percentage as my 20D. I bought the 2N to get a higher % of keepers so I tried to tweak everything to really use the 2N and so far not a lot of luck. My % of keepers is now terrible!

Thank you for your comments, I really do appreciate everyone’s help!
Morty

--
Canon 1D Mark 2 N
Canon 20 D
Canon S80
Sony HDR-HC3
100-400 F4.5/5.6 L IS
70-200 F2.8L
24-70 F2.8 L
1.4 TC Canon II
580 EX
BG-E2
Custom Bracket QRS-35-EV
and lots and lots of memory cards

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your continued support. I really do appreciate all of your help. If you ever come to Calgary I’ll teach you to ski if you like!.

Yes I had the camera in AI servo focus and was tracking the skier. I used custom function 4-1 which as you know switches AF start to the AE Lock button, and starts AE Lock in AE modes with any metering pattern when the shutter button is pressed halfway. Canon indicates this mode is popular with sports photographers because with C.Fn 4-1, the photographer can manually focus at any time, and then start or stop AF independently from. CAMERA FEATURES AND OPERATION 12 shutter release simply by pressing or lifting the thumb off the AE Lock button.

So maybe my screw up was I took my thumb off the * button and didn’t realize that with that action I stopped the camera from auto focusing. Have you had any experience with this? I thought the * button would operate the auto focus until you started pushing the shutter button and then the camera would take over and automatically auto focus.

I certainly like your idea of eliminating all 45 focus points and will try that this weekend.

You know, this is what this forum should be about, experts helping others.

Thanks again!

Morty

--
Canon 1D Mark 2 N
Canon 20 D
Canon S80
Sony HDR-HC3
100-400 F4.5/5.6 L IS
70-200 F2.8L
24-70 F2.8 L
1.4 TC Canon II
580 EX
BG-E2
Custom Bracket QRS-35-EV
and lots and lots of memory cards

I think it should work better with skiing because there are fewer high contrast objects to interfere with focus on your main subject. As for the speed of your subject, the MKIIN's AI Servo can track a race car, so I think it should be able to track a skier ;-)
What do you think all those olympic photogs are shooting with????

Hi Lawdog,

I know it should work. I'm just going crazy trying to get my camera and lens combination to work. I'm new at the 1D Mark2N; I'm not new to photography so I appreciate all the help I can get with the 2N.

It seems like auto focus with the 2N is a popular topic on this forum and I've read a lot of threads before I started my own. The custome function settings seem to make all the difference...

best regards,
Morty

--
Canon 1D Mark 2 N
Canon 20 D
Canon S80
Sony HDR-HC3
100-400 F4.5/5.6 L IS
70-200 F2.8L
24-70 F2.8 L
1.4 TC Canon II
580 EX
BG-E2
Custom Bracket QRS-35-EV
and lots and lots of memory cards

You have to continue to hold down the * button in order to continue your AI Servo tracking of your subject. This becomes shooting a sequence of shots a two finger operation, utilizing your thumb for AF tracking (* button) and your index finger on the shutter for AE and shutter release.

You can not just let go of the * button once you are hold down the shutter release because then your AF tracking will stop. This probably explains the image that you posted.

It takes quite some time getting used to, but it is VERY effective once you get used to it. I now shoot this way 75% of the time, and this includes all my photography outside of sports.

The advantage is being able to continuously track a subject by using thumb to hold down , while selectively shooting bursts with your index. That way you dont expend all 22 frames in your RAW buffer shooting one sequence. You can shoot 3-4 frames here, another 5-6 frames there, etc.

Right now it just sounds like user inexperience. I graduated from 20D to Mark2N about 4 months ago and it took me a while. Try selecting center point AF as others have suggested, with the 7 point expansion. Hold down the * while tracking with center point, you will find it to be VERY accurate.

This camera can track an object coming at you up to something like 150 mph. Skiers do not go that fast . I shoot snowboarding quite a bit and this camera has been a dream.

Hi Philodox

Thank you for the concise instructions.

Laughing out loud I never said skiers were that fast...just faster than football players. Whether they are faster than snowboarders is of course a topic of many discussions.

I will try everything you and the others graciously suggested. I do admit to user inexperience. I’m not sure I will keep the setting CF4.1 since I hope to be in a few pictures myself some day.

I’m trying to use the experience of the forum members to augment my lack of it on the 2N.

Thanks again,

I will let you and everyone else know how the suggestions work to continue the trading ideas / educational aspect of this forum.

Morty

--
Canon 1D Mark 2 N
Canon 20 D
Canon S80
Sony HDR-HC3
100-400 F4.5/5.6 L IS
70-200 F2.8L
24-70 F2.8 L
1.4 TC Canon II
580 EX
BG-E2
Custom Bracket QRS-35-EV
and lots and lots of memory cards

I think a few other things should come into play when you are taking using servo. 1. With the 100-400 you are likely panning. do you keep the IS on I or II? Or off? Try II for panning so that it isn't working against itself or off. 2. Expect the first picture to be a miss as the camera is aquiring the subject (however many of my first shots are the best focus). 3. The servo is trying to figure out where the subject will be for the subsequent frame. If the movement is not in a line, it gives up on the prediction and tries to acquire the shot. That means that there will be missed focus on abrupt movements. It is just that the camera can't predict the movement. So if you want a shot at a critical spot, focus on the spot and take the picture when the skier reaches that spot.

These are things I think make sports more difficult than it appears. Notice that the original advertisements for the EOS Iv were showing a car flying through the air and in focus pictures, but the car's movement was in a straight line. AI servo is great, but the AI has restrictions and you have to have them in mind.
--
James S

I was not trying to disrespect skiing in any way, I have many friends spread throughout all of snowsports, many of whom are expert skiers. I actually skied for my first time in about 10 years last weekend, and totally forgot how much fun it was.

Yes, keep practicing. One of the things I found useful in practicing is just going outside your home and practicing tracking larger objects like cars. Then take on the challenge of tracking birds. If you can track birds accurately, well, you can track pretty much anything.

As another replier mentioned, you may want to experiment with turning your IS off as it may be a slight hindrance; this is especially applicable when shooting outdoors with a fast shutter speed.

I am a little unsure of your mention of not using CF 4.1 because you "hope to be in some pictures yourself some day." I am assuming that you will want to hand the camera over to someone else that may not be familiar with * AF lock so they can shoot you punching some gates? If so, you can utilize one of my favorite features on the 2N body, which is saving of personal function sets. You can have one "stock" custom function setting and another one that you use for shooting sports, then apply the profile at any time. I switch back and forth like this for event/sports photography, just like it mentions in that EOS Digital 1-Series PDF guide.

I was answering a similar post a few months ago that addresses some of the same problems you are having. There are a few more things you can check, but rather than re-type it, here is a link to that post. Hopefully you will find it useful.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=18497041

I had some of the same problems with the N at first that you are having, although my focus was just a little bit off - not off by a lot, as was your example photo. I'm sure that was caused by you letting loose of the * button.

If you follow what I am saying in the link above, you will see how you can actually choose between two different focus points, and switch back and forth very quickly by just letting your finger off a button. It is made possible by registering a home point. You can even set AFPS as one focus point (45pt auto focus point selection), so that at the touch of a button, you are back to all 45 points, without needing to take your eye away from the viewfinder.

I use it for vertical orientation shots, so that I automatically have a focus point in the upper center of the frame selected when I switch to vertical orientation. When I flip back to horizintal, I instantly go back to the other focus point.

As has probaly been mentioned, predictive focus with AI Servo works best when the subject is moving at a constant speed and in the same direction. The camera is predicting where the subject is going to be and is focusing to that position for you. Also, remember that you need to acquire the subject and track it for 1 to 2 seconds before the predictive focus will be fully accurate.

This last thing won't apply to the lenses you listed, but you should probably make sure you have CF19 set to 0. With the super telephoto lenses, if cf19 is set to 1, when you press the * button, your autofocus would STOP instead of start.

Good Luck!
--
Gallery at: http://www.timrucciphotography.com

Is your camera set to take pictures in AI Servo regardless of whether the camera has acheived focus lock? It's one of the custom functions, and if you have it set a certain way it will often take the first one or two pictures out of focus because focus lock is not required before the shutter releases.

Also, you might try taking pictures of moving cars to practice and identify issues with the focus system. Lock focus on a car about 100 yards away and keep shooting in AI Servo until the car passes . . .

This forum is awesome!... there are a lot of fellow photographers with great suggestions to help sort out problems…thank you to all!

Yes, I do plan on getting (probably my wife) to take a few shots of me banging gates. I took 60,000 photos last year at ski races I think I deserve to be in at least a few pictures. I’m really excited about trying out what has been suggested this weekend on the 2N.

Great tips, thanks again!

Morty

--
Canon 1D Mark 2 N
Canon 20 D
Canon S80
Sony HDR-HC3
100-400 F4.5/5.6 L IS
70-200 F2.8L
24-70 F2.8 L
1.4 TC Canon II
580 EX
BG-E2
Custom Bracket QRS-35-EV
and lots and lots of memory cards

I don't want to be flamed or miss understood, but does this hapend on dark side (nikon) too? Is nikon focus better than what we have in 1D MIIN?

--



http://www.pbase.com/jdf

...I mainly use the 28-300mm L (f/3.5-5.6) and at 300mm, I have fantastic results with AI Servo.

Have a look at the following picture: This racing boat is moving towards me at ~ 100km/h and AI servo tracked it beautifully. For this race, however, I manually selected the center focus point (read your manual).





Another 100% crop: A small, far-away swift, tracked perfectly with AI servo (I did not even select a focus point, all 45 active). The focusing even with my "slow" lens totally blows me away, and I suspect if you have any issues, it's either operator-induced (not keeping the point on the subject properly) or your lens or camera needs calibration at a Canon service centre.



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My gallery: http://philosomatographer.deviantart.com/

What UV filter do you have fitted? I would imagine a mediocre UV filter could affect autofocus results? (canon L lenses do not need a UV filter fitted, they are fully coated already).

Could you maybe post some shots / 100% crops for us, then we could comment?

The snow is beautifully in focus!

No seriously, you've somehow caused the camera to focus on the snow, and then recomposed (moved) the shot. Are you sure you were in AI Servo mode? (also, you need to keep pressing the button, either the shutter halfway (default) or the * button if you've decoupled autofocus from the shutter button, in order to keep tracking the subject)

With a smallish subject like that, I'd switch to centre point, and keep it on the subject all the time - otherwise, the background may present more of a focusing target, even though the Camera is supposed to track the closest subject by default in anyway.

Either way, your shot kind-of confirms operator error, so hopefully everybody can help you solve the problem. The 1D has a bit of learning curve, but this camera has such stellar capabilities, any photographic mistakes (and boy, do I make many) are almost always operator error.

Hi,

I do appreciate everyone's input.

I am definitely switching to the center point focusing from the 45 point system. I used center point on the 20D successfully. I’m just surprised with 45 focus points you have to turn off most of them.

Yes I was in AI servo mode and yes I do admit to operator error. Anyone who thinks a 2N is a point and shoot camera has never picked one up. There are lots of opportunities to screw things up.

I have read cover to cover many times: the manual, the Magic Lantern reference book and the periodical on how to improve the performance of 1 series cameras. The information is sometimes conflicting and I find it somewhat confusing until you make a few mistakes like I have to really understand what the authors of the work are trying to say.

The benefit of this forum is to have the help of the more experienced available to the less experienced, and once again I am grateful for that.

I won’t let off the * (focusing button) on the CF 4.1 setting again. It takes quite a complete understanding of that camera to figure out what CF4.1 is even about.

I’m optimistic that I can figure out how to get the pictures that everyone else brags about using this camera. One of the posters indicated there is a learning curve for this camera…my response to that is “ya think”.

Auto focus using the 2N is a frequently discussed topic on this forum, so there are a lot of people like me struggling to get thru the learning curve so they can get on with their passion of taking pictures.

I have no idea on the comparison to Nikon...been a Canon user all my life

Once again to all....Thank you!

Morty

--
Canon 1D Mark 2 N
Canon 20 D
Canon S80
Sony HDR-HC3
100-400 F4.5/5.6 L IS
70-200 F2.8L
24-70 F2.8 L
1.4 TC Canon II
580 EX
BG-E2
Custom Bracket QRS-35-EV
and lots and lots of memory cards

Hello Morty:

Been reading and posting about the 1Dn's focus since I got mine in December. Looks like we got ours the same time. I do shoot with a Nikon as well and can tell you the focus is worlds apart. I'm too new to say better or worse, but can give you unbiased feedback.

Take all the 'white-papers' available and all the invaluable help offered-- the fact is, the focus system of the 1Dn is a 'hit or miss' system until you have it fully mastered. When it's on, the camera/lens [70-200] is unbelievably sharp; sharper than my D200. But, at this point, I need to hit the focus button 3 times before it gets it right on many more subjects than I ever thought. It has a terrible time with flat object or vertical/horizontal lines. I find it take far more contrast to focus than does the Nikon system.

True the Canon certainly hunts less in focus mode, but conversely will lock even if not in focus [and fire the shutter even if you have it set for focus priority].

I too have read the papers and taken peoples advice. I've concluded, it is simply not a camera you're going to pick up and use without a lot of practice. Like most professional tools, designed for high level precision, it will take some time to master.

You cannot deny it's abilities. There are wonderful examples all over. It's like jumping in a Porsche, it's a really awkward automobile until you understand it and go.

Best of luck.
--
Rick

I've found life just doesn't fit in 1 camera or manufacturer vision.

Hi,

Was just wondering if you ever tried tweaking the AI servo's sensitivity setting (CFn. 20)? Sometimes having it less or more sensitive would allow it to not lose track of the intended subject, especially when the subject is moving in an erratic pattern. You'd have to experiment to figure out what works best for your needs.

Unlike a race car on a track coming towards you at a predictable speed and direction, trying to keep AI servo locked onto a skier doing a slalom does seem a tad bit harder IMO. It is even harder on a full frame 1-series Canon because the ellipse covers less of the viewfinder. Digressing a little, I hope whatever new pro full frame model Canon launches will address that issue by expanding the area AF ellipse to cover more ground.

Also I've been told that sometimes it's better to use all 45 points for tracking purposes, as the points would "relay" the focus from one point to another. In your case, I believe 45 points may work to your advantage, as long as you keep the skier within the confines of the AF area ellipse. On the contrary, by selecting just one point may make the AF system too sensitive and concentrate on whatever's in the vicinity of the selected point, or its neighbouring points only.

Cheers.

--
Upgrade? Will it improve the way I shoot???

Hi Rick,

I kinda figured I was not alone and that is why I have kept this thread going...to help everyone understand how best to use this professional camera.

That, in my mind, is the purpose of this forum.

Thanks for your kind words,
Morty

Canon 1D Mark 2 N
Canon 20 D
Canon S80
Sony HDR-HC3
100-400 F4.5/5.6 L IS
70-200 F2.8L
24-70 F2.8 L
1.4 TC Canon II
580 EX
BG-E2
Custom Bracket QRS-35-EV
and lots and lots of memory cards

Hi,

Your comments are exactly why I started with 45 auto focus points...thinking that using all 45 points would be superior to the 20D's system, but what I found was that 45 points was worse than the center point only on a 20D. I haven’t tried the centre point only on the 2N…that’s this weekend’s adventure.

A number of contributors to this thread indicate the 2N takes a lot of experience and trial and error. I have to admit once I figured out that I needed to keep the * button engaged at CF 4.1 then the camera worked much better. I actually had that figured out before I read it on the forum. The forum just confirmed my suspicions.

In response to a question from another post. I originally had the best B&W UV filter on my camera. I took it off and so far there have been so many other issues I don’t know if no filter has improved the auto focus.

I will definitely report back next week on the success of the new camera settings for snow skiing pictures. I will describe my settings and the use of my filters.

Hopefully, those that need to, will learn from this.

Thanks to all
Morty
--
Canon 1D Mark 2 N
Canon 20 D
Canon S80
Sony HDR-HC3
100-400 F4.5/5.6 L IS
70-200 F2.8L
24-70 F2.8 L
1.4 TC Canon II
580 EX
BG-E2
Custom Bracket QRS-35-EV
and lots and lots of memory cards