Exposure compensation with A2 in manual mode

..My below post was not to be linked to your reponse...(the punishment of having to much IE windows open.. :) )
Yeah - virtually the same as what I've said!
I've used the A2 et al, 1000's of times as a polaroid substitute
for my neg film work - I get perfect exposures and I don't need
exposure compensation in manual to get them!
I never work in anything else but manual! None of my MF cameras are
auto anything. I have a metered prism but never use it!
Something to think about!
When a camera setting is compensated either way - how do you think
the in-camera settings work? Think carefully about it and next time
try it and see what the actual exposure was and how it was reached!
The camera is an electro mechanical device - that should help.
Tony
I get your explanation but how do you decide the correct exposure in manual without an exposure indication. Do you do that through one of the PSA modes and then set it back to M. The thing is that this is how I am doing it now and I find it cumbersome. I was hoping the camera could give me an exposure indication in M mode. Do you know of another way without leaving M mode.

RW
 
It usually starts smoothly, like putting naiv questions like exp.
comp. in manual mode, then it starts to develop into personalized
bashing of posters (like myself)
You mean starting it yourself I may assume .. (or how would you decribe your reply just two posts above)
and then will continue in a way we will all regret we ever bought the A2!
I wouldn´t know why because I enjoy my A2 so far, I only ran in what is for me a drawback. Hence my question because maybe I overlooked something.
I'm out of here!
That is probably your best idea so far ;)

RW
 
All the technology is in the camera to implement it, it probably
would only need a few lines of code in the firmware.....
Yeah, it is a pitty that it will probably come down to something simple like that...

RW
 
All the technology is in the camera to implement it, it probably
would only need a few lines of code in the firmware.....
Yeah, it is a pitty that it will probably come down to something
simple like that...

RW
Unfortunately, many cameras have shortcomings - the A2, although a very well thought out camera, obviously has these too.

However, exposure can still be corrected effectively by the methods I've suggested.

In order to adjust for compensation, any camera must effectively either alter the aperture, shutter speed or ISO to get the effect you want. I prefer to do this manually and then I know exactly what is happening, so even if the A2 had the facility you require, I would personally simply ignore it in favour of my own interpretation.

Histograms are not infalible - they do not give evidence of a perfect exposure - it's only very approximate.

The only true way to get accurate optimal exposures is to bracket the shots once a foundation exposure has been reached, just as has been done for decades with reversal film. Digital imaging behaves very similarly to reversal film rather than neg film.

Anyway, good luck with your A2 and I'm sure you are capable of compensating manually for the shortcomings of a super little camera.
Regards...
Tony
 
Yeah - virtually the same as what I've said!
I've used the A2 et al, 1000's of times as a polaroid substitute
for my neg film work - I get perfect exposures and I don't need
exposure compensation in manual to get them!
I never work in anything else but manual! None of my MF cameras are
auto anything. I have a metered prism but never use it!
Something to think about!
When a camera setting is compensated either way - how do you think
the in-camera settings work? Think carefully about it and next time
try it and see what the actual exposure was and how it was reached!
The camera is an electro mechanical device - that should help.
Tony
I get your explanation but how do you decide the correct exposure
in manual without an exposure indication. Do you do that through
one of the PSA modes and then set it back to M. The thing is that
this is how I am doing it now and I find it cumbersome. I was
hoping the camera could give me an exposure indication in M mode.
Do you know of another way without leaving M mode.

RW
Never saw this post...sorry.

Ok, just set to use your A2 in say A or S priority. Next take a metered reading of the subject/scene from the camera ( it would be better with a hand held if you have one). Use either Spot or CW for best results.

Once you have the meter reading, switch to manual mode and transfer these settings to the aperture and shutter speed.

Then simply adjust either to get the compensation you require - I find it quite quick but then I am used to it!

That will solve the problems - then you can bracket either way to make sure the exposure is optimal!
All easy!
Regards...
Tony
 
25 posts to answer a single question. All because people do not LISTEN!

These gentlemen are not trolls, and did not need the explanation about manual mode, which was force-fed to them. They are well aware of what manual mode is.

The simple answer to their question is: the only indication regarding correct exposure in manual mode in the A2 is the live histogram. There.

A wild guess as to why the feature was ommited from the A2: maybe the designers assumed that the typical photographer shooting in manual mode will also be shooting RAW, in which case he will be exposing to the right, and adjusting exposure to his liking afterwards, during conversion. Therefore information about "correct" exposure when shooting is of little value.

Having said that, I agree that this feature should have been implemented. Like a little green light that goes on when you hit "correct" exposure settings.

--
Gideon



PAW - Week 11
 
25 posts to answer a single question. All because people do not
LISTEN!
Gideon,

First of all NOT everyone shoots in RAW - I know I don't! I much prefer TIFF because for me it's the nearest to film and that is what I use! I NEVER use the histogram.

The histogram is only the ratio of light to dark! - in a correctly exposed candle lit scene for instance, the live histogram is pointless! It would theoretically show the exposure way too far to the left! ANY use of the live histogram has to be carefully thought out unlless it's a very average scene where one knows the outcome without even looking at the histogram. To rely soley upon a histogram is to invite problems unless one is very experienced with it.

I was under the assumption that the OP was about the poster bemoaning the fact that the A2 didn't have any + or - compensation in manual mode? The explanations/suggestions were offered regarding that - it had nothing to do with RAW and I certainly didn't treat anyone as a troll!
Tony
 
..Snip!..Does the A2 really not indicate the actual exposure stops in actual
numbers (like even my P&S cameras do). I can not find anything in
the manual and I hope someone can help me.

RW
NO! The A2 does not have an exposure bar for manual mode.. Stop Down metering is NOT available in M mode! WYSIWYG!!! It was like that the day you bought it. It will be the same the day you sell it! No one here cares whether you think it's right or wrong or stupid or anything else!! Learn to deal with it or sell it and go on!!!!
--
Cheers! Robert..
 
Robber said:

"The histogram is from a technical point of view of course "superior" but it does not give you a simple message " you are spot on" exposure with these settings."..or +2 to -2 readout in the screen.

You would like the tool you are used to and have years of experience of - it's not there. So you'll need to build up experience with the new tool provided which gives more, but non-numeric information. It's up to you whether you can live with this and put the time in to gain experience with interpreting the histogram.

You also have WYSISYG in the viewfinder which you won't have had with old SLRs. So you have two new tools - live view and live histogram - to replace the one you feel comfortable with. I think you'll find it enough, but you'll have to adapt.
 
Also take a look at Program Shift - Pa/Ps (page 51 of manual!). I think it would get you pretty close to what you are after....or closer.
 
Gideon,
First of all NOT everyone shoots in RAW
Well, that was the second part of my post. I said it was a wild guess about what the Minolta engineers might have been thinking, and then I said 'typically' and not 'everyone'.
The histogram is only the ratio of light to dark! - in a correctly
exposed candle lit scene for instance, the live histogram is
pointless! It would theoretically show the exposure way too far to
the left! ANY use of the live histogram has to be carefully thought
out unlless it's a very average scene where one knows the outcome
without even looking at the histogram. To rely soley upon a
histogram is to invite problems unless one is very experienced with
it.
Exactly. Since most RAW shooters DELIBERATELY overexpose (expose to the right) and set exposure only when converting, an in-camera "correct exposure" indicator becomes redundant. I was just offering a possible explanation to the omition of this feature, I wasn't there when the A2 was designed.
I certainly didn't treat
anyone as a troll!
I didn't say you did. Read all the posts.

What I am saying is this: These people were unjustly scolded for not understanding what manual control of a camera is. They did, and their actual question was not answered right away.

All to often I see posts that are not read carefully enough, and replied to without really addressing the original question. It has happened to me, too, though this may be due to my English not being clear enough.

More often than not, once a thread begins to stray, the OP doesn't get answered at all.

--
Gideon



PAW - Week 11
 
First, please note that I don't intend to be rude with anyone, but as Gideon said, what a frustrating thread !!!
The problem comes from the subject line : why exposure "compensation" ?

Although I don't practice english since my school days, I also misunderstood the question at first.

The OP asked his question in a wrong manner, but he's right : there's no indication, in M mode, that the exposure is OK (except the histogram, wich is useless for me, as I can't read it : too small). That's really frustrating.

So please, during 2007, be careful when posting a question : that will avoid such unpleasant messages !
Regards
André
 
Also take a look at Program Shift - Pa/Ps (page 51 of manual!). I
think it would get you pretty close to what you are after....or
closer.
Yes. I agree.

This dispute seems to have arisen as a result of the OP's confusion about what "manual mode" means.

1) There's FULLY MANUAL exposure --

-- which is where any exposure meter is entirely unconnected from the exposure controls of the camera. Reading/estimating the exposure is done with an external meter (or exposure tables, or just plain "experience") and the settings transferred by hand to the camera.

2) And there's METERED MANUAL --

-- where a cross coupled "match needle", "traffic light", or "+ - exposure indicator bar" type built-in meter is available through the viewfinder, or in an external window on the body. These devices can be followed slavishly, or overridden at the photographer's discretion.

It is the first of these that the A2 provides... "Manual" here means "fully manual", although a built in meter is available, it has no cross coupling, and no viewfinder readout in this mode.

Well, that is not exactly true. We are not completely without "correct" exposure indication, even in M mode.....

A) There is the live histogram, which is arguably much more sophisticated and useful than a simple set of go/no-go lights....... ONCE you have learned how to use it.

B) There is also the fact that the whole viewfinder image LIGHTENS or DARKENS in accordance with the settings in force. This class of visual cross-coupled exposure indication is totally unknown in cameras other than the EVF type, and is also pretty good, once you get used to it.

Moreover.......(as Paul indicates in his point quoted above)....

The P mode is as good as, or better than, conventional Metered Manual, because.....

i) it will make a good stab at the exposure without ANY intervention at all,

ii) has program shift on shutter and/or aperture for override purposes (which changes settings without altering exposure level) with on-screen indication provided as "Ps" or "Pa", respectively,

iii) exposure level can also be quickly overridden with + - button, with on-screen indication of how much is currently applied,

iv) which wheels do what are programmable to suit yourself,

v) as usual, actual shutter speed and aperture settings employed are in view at half-press of the shutter button.

Taken together with A) and B) above, (live histogram and live screen brightness) to complain of the lack of an exposure bar in Manual is to complain too much, I think.

On the other hand.....

I do have sympathy with people who grow used to one mode of working, only to discover that an apparently "more modern" camera doesn't have that feature implemented in quite the same way as is familiar. Indeed, it can even seem perverse on the part of the designers.... [??]

However, my advice to the OP would be get to know the strengths of your camera's ergonomics, and work your own way around the lack of an exposure bar in Manual mode. As will become clearer in time, the A2 gives you lots of ways of doing so... and one of them may be preferable to the methods you are used to.....at least, WHEN you are used to it!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Footnote:

I have been using the A2 professionally since it first appeared, and there are lots of features I never use .... (audio memos? movie mode? time lapse?).....

BUT.....

...hardly a month goes by without me learning some unexpected usefulness in an A2 feature I had previously dismissed as "not something I needed". Indeed, I have had to admit that the designers of the A2 knew at least as much about WHAT a camera should do, and HOW it should do it, as I did --- and this despite my years working with all different kinds of cameras.

Indeed, the A2 is the most complete-in-itself imaging package I have ever encountered.. and I KEEP learning that it is more competent than I had previously thought!!

I believe others here have made that same discovery.

I wouldn't wish any less for you. :-)
--
Regards,
Baz
 
The OP asked his question in a wrong manner, but he's right :
there's no indication, in M mode, that the exposure is OK (except
the histogram, wich is useless for me, as I can't read it : too
small). That's really frustrating.
Andre'..

To my mind, the idea of manual mode is to determine the correct exposure - manually!

It's not a film camera where you have to wait for the results to come back from the lab! You just have to look at an instantly exposed image to see if your exposure is correct and adjust accordingly. I do this every day when using my digital cameras as polaroids!

Once you have an image that looks about ok, you can then up or down the aperture by 1/3rd of a stop to refine it or the shutter speed or even the ISO settings! The LCD is a far better tool than a graph

What bothers me is the need for reassurance from a little graph, the results of which are highly subjective to say the least. It's far better to learn how to use the camera fully manually at first and then progress onto the various modes, be it P,A, or S.

A simple test for anyone who doubts this - take a dark or black object which has decent texture and place it on a white background the area of which is perhaps 10x that of the black object. After taking an image suitably corrected, look at the histogram and tell me what you see! Repeat the same experiment with the opposite colours being the dominant and recessive colours ie: white detailed object on a black background. Neither histogram will be of any use whatsoever. Just show the histogram only to fellow photographers and they will most likely say that it's either over or under exposed, even though it's not.

It's not neccessary to have any indication of exposure correctness in manual mode - that should be why one chooses to shoot in manual mode, otherwise one might just as well choose one of the auto modes and the get the benefit if they so wish from the compensation adjustments.

I hope I wasn't rude to the OP - they did suggest that others who were trying to help were not experienced in the use of film, which could easily have made me bite - but I didn't.

I have never been a fan of dialing in compensation - from my experience, it's not neccessary unless using other than manual mode!

Manual is for those who wish to have absolute control, much like MF and LF neg film camera users!

The A2 is not a poorer camera for not having exp comp visible or available in manual mode - it does what it says on the box...it offers full manual control over the camera. That's one of the very reasons that selected KM cameras in the first instance.
Tony
 
Hi all,

I misunderstood too the OP's question since it reffered to exposure compensation. In manual mode exposure compensation makes no sense.

Reading on I inderstood what was the real matter: the OP wished to have the guidance of the in-camera exposure metering to know to what the manually choosen settings (time/aperture) would lead -underexposing, spot on or overexposing-. Other cameras, i.e. SLR generally have this indication which can be used or ignored.

As far as I know the A2 doesn't have this indication bar. I'm using the A2 since Dec. 2004 and I never missed this feature. Other photographers needs may vary. One point that I didn't understand yet is what is the point of using manual mode, searching for the help of the metering when all auto modes give you all the support you want, including the possibility to override the suggested exposure settings. In fact there's no specific experience needed in digital photography to predict aproximately right exposure settings, even without any metering since exposure time, aperture and ISO are working together in the same relations since "old" film days. On the other hand, who doesn't feel comfortable with such "guessing" is free to choose any of the auto modes.

Another point: there's no need at all to worry about what KM's technicians might have thought and which errors they possibly have comitted the the design of the A2 or each other camera. I think each of us has chosen the camera which he found to meet best his/her needs. No one was forced to buy a camera that might lack on one or another feature that the one would like to have. There's no doubt that the wishlist of "interesting features the camera could/should" have may be very long but to be frankly it's impossible to join each and every wish in one (affordable) camera. Even the best DSLR's have their downsides, such as mirror-up-function burried deeply into menu structures. Does it make any sense to worry about this for the actual camera generation. For sure not. Summing up the things we deslike may help technicians to improve the next camera generation - what is not the case with KM's cameras unfortunately.

Finally I'd like to give some advice about understanding and using of the histogram to those who feel insecure. The histogram cannot be understood as a direct metering tool for exposure as some posts seem to suggest and others doubt. Fact is that the histogram only gives a sumary of the data quantity "collected" by the sensor from dark (left side) to bright (right side). In normal daylight subject one will find on a right exposed image a graph from left to the right. A graph shifted to the right may tell that bright areas are "burned", i.e. the numeric values in the digital representation of the subject reached the maximum value of 255 (in a 8 bit JPG image) so no structure, details, differences can be distinguished anymore in the affected areas (and those details have gone for ever). A histogram shifted to the left show the opposite, that details have been lost in the dark areas. It has to be added that this could be wanted (low key photo) or unavoidable (night scene). This is to say that the pure analysis of the histogram doesn't say if the image was correctly exposed. It's only a quantitative device that shows how much dark, how much midtones and how much bright areas are in the image. But histogram used together with the live view in the viewfinder (the view changes its brightness according to the settings) are useful tools to set exposure adequately even without the indication bar. It's clear that the reading of an indication bar is quicker because it's more usual but after all one has to interpret this reading too: is -1 ok or would -1,5 be better? In the live preview it gets obvious how the changings will affect exposure (and histogram).

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Michael Fritzen
 
Thanks for all your responses.

I guess I have to get used to the available metering indications of the A2. I understand one can use the viewfinder and/or the live histogram but I find it difficult to judge the metering by the EVF or the small histogram.

In every other aspect I find the A2 a fine little camera that serves me well. I am thinking of stepping into the world of DSLR's but that will certainly not retire the A2... :)

RW
 
Glad to see this "dispute" is over now.
May I suggest you a method ?

I've set my A2 in aperture priority. The front wheel adjusts aperture, and the rear wheel adjusts the exposure compensation.

So, if you want to use the A2 in "pseudo-manual" mode, you just have to choose the aperture, and then the A2 will choose the speed. If you want to modify this combination, you have the choice :
  • if you turn the front wheel, the aperture will change, and the speed too. That allows you to control (not that much, given the sensor's size) the DOF.
  • now, if you turn the rear wheel, you compensate the exposure (+ - 2 stops).
The A2 will show you in the EVF or the LCD the compensation value in steps (0.3 or 0.5, at your taste). That's exactly what would appear in a standart DSLR. Even better than a bargraph, the compensation value is displayed in steps (-0.3, -0.7, -1, -1.3, etc) !
That's what you want, no ?
Note that you can do a similar thing with the flash.
Regards,
André
 
Thanks for all your responses.
I guess I have to get used to the available metering indications of
the A2. I understand one can use the viewfinder and/or the live
histogram but I find it difficult to judge the metering by the EVF
or the small histogram.

In every other aspect I find the A2 a fine little camera that
serves me well. I am thinking of stepping into the world of DSLR's
but that will certainly not retire the A2... :)

RW
Just keep at it and you'll win out! It's ok when you get used to it!
Good luck...
Tony
 
You are definitely a troll. You post many of your messages on the Canon, Sony, and Nikon web sites and they happen to be troll type messages as well. I noticed you been out there knocking Kodak as well.

Recommendations, try Oympus and Pentax, you seem to have missed them
along the way.
--
Bill

Everything I learned about computers I learned because I never read the manuals. Does this hold true for my A2.

I am on this side of the pond so pardon my English
 
Also take a look at Program Shift - Pa/Ps (page 51 of manual!). I
think it would get you pretty close to what you are after....or
closer.
I've never used this before, but I'd like to. However, It's not working for me.

In P mode, I half-press the shutter release button, and while pressed I turn one of the wheels. Nothing happens. Does something have to be set in a menu fiest? Any suggestions?

--
Gideon



PAW - Week 11
 

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