New2 D80: Action shots and Flash questions

Hello all. Just got my first SLR Digital D80 after years with point and shoot digitals. To say I'm a bit overwhelmed is an understatement, but trying to learn. I have no idea what all the settings are or do, so bare with me.

What I really want to do is mostly take photos of my son and friends on the Motocross track. I've taken a few so far, but this time of the year in Oregon they race in a simi enclosed indoor arena due to the weather. I took my first photos with the D80 in auto focus and built in flash. Found out right away I need a stronger flash......obviously.

My first question is this. I read the reviews of the SB-600 and ordered one online. I got a call from the place I ordered it and was told it was backordered until mid-Jan. I was going to cancel and try to find one elsewhere, when I got to talking to the guy. When I told him what I wanted it for he recommended the Digital Concepts 952AF for Nikon SLR. He said he had the SB-600 for his D200 and switched. He said the 952AF had a faster sync than the SB-600. So I ordered it instead, only $20 more. Does anyone know anything about this flash and did I screw up? Are some flashes faster than others?

Second question. I know it's probably better to manual focus eventually. What's the best way to manual focus a shot of fast moving objects indoors so I don't blur the subject? Should I prefocus on a location and how far will an external flash light things up enough? The middle of the track is probably around 75 feet from the sidelines. If I increase the shutter speed with the flash compensate? Or will it be too dark at that distance.

Hope these aren't too dumb of questions.

MikeVDS said:

My first question is this. I read the reviews of the SB-600 and
ordered one online. I got a call from the place I ordered it and
was told it was backordered until mid-Jan. I was going to cancel
and try to find one elsewhere, when I got to talking to the guy.
When I told him what I wanted it for he recommended the Digital
Concepts 952AF for Nikon SLR. He said he had the SB-600 for his
D200 and switched. He said the 952AF had a faster sync than the
SB-600. So I ordered it instead, only $20 more. Does anyone know
anything about this flash and did I screw up? Are some flashes
faster than others?

Click to expand...

While I have never tried that flash and I would hate to think a salesman would lie to you but I would get the Nikon flash...its in stock most everywhere.

MikeVDS said:

Second question. I know it's probably better to manual focus
eventually. What's the best way to manual focus a shot of fast
moving objects indoors so I don't blur the subject? Should I
prefocus on a location

Click to expand...

Get familiar with the focus modes of the D80 it can and will focus much faster and surer than I ever could.

--
------------------------------------------------------------
Gene
From Western PA.

Panasonic FZ 20 and FZ30
D50 and lenses.

http://imageevent.com/grc6



Just trying to learn and it's slow going!

You may want to look at a faster lens; I assume you are using a kit lens. Also, in combination with the faster lens you can bump up the ISO setting to get a decent shutter speed. I agree what another poster said about AF; you may get a few good shots by pre-focusing manually, but I bet the D80 AF is better than most humans most of the time, for this kind of work.

The flash may give you ok results as far as the subject, but if the background is dark it will look unnatural, at "normal" flash settings. The only way around this is slow shutter mode, which defeats any motion-stopping ability with your fast lens and high ISO setting.

I would say to practice with available light first. I personally don't like flash pictures of action subjects with large, dark backgrounds, it looks strange to me. However, your subject will always be sharper with flash since the strobe length is much shorter than your shutter speed.

MikeVDS said:

Hello all. Just got my first SLR Digital D80 after years with point
and shoot digitals. To say I'm a bit overwhelmed is an
understatement, but trying to learn. I have no idea what all the
settings are or do, so bare with me.
What I really want to do is mostly take photos of my son and
friends on the Motocross track. I've taken a few so far, but this
time of the year in Oregon they race in a simi enclosed indoor
arena due to the weather. I took my first photos with the D80 in
auto focus and built in flash. Found out right away I need a
stronger flash......obviously.

Click to expand...

What lens are you using?

MikeVDS said:

My first question is this. I read the reviews of the SB-600 and
ordered one online. I got a call from the place I ordered it and
was told it was backordered until mid-Jan. I was going to cancel
and try to find one elsewhere, when I got to talking to the guy.
When I told him what I wanted it for he recommended the Digital
Concepts 952AF for Nikon SLR. He said he had the SB-600 for his
D200 and switched. He said the 952AF had a faster sync than the
SB-600. So I ordered it instead, only $20 more. Does anyone know
anything about this flash and did I screw up? Are some flashes
faster than others?

Click to expand...

This is your decision but Nikon is known for it's Flash technology. There is no better anywhere. You're putting a damper on a great camera system by using a after market flash. Btw the 800 will give you more reach, maybe another 10 feet and it's only a few ounces heavier.

MikeVDS said:

Second question. I know it's probably better to manual focus
eventually. What's the best way to manual focus a shot of fast
moving objects indoors so I don't blur the subject?

Click to expand...

If you don't want to blur the subject you will want a shutter that will be on the fast side. That can be determined by the lens that you use and the film speed (ISO) that you choose. First tell us about the lens!

MikeVDS said:

Should I
prefocus on a location and how far will an external flash light
things up enough?

Click to expand...

You can do either. The lens and ISO speed in conjunction with the lighting in the stadium will determine your options. With a fast lens and fast ISO you may be able to get away without a flash at all, although it generally helps anyway.

MikeVDS said:

The middle of the track is probably around 75
feet from the sidelines. If I increase the shutter speed with the
flash compensate? Or will it be too dark at that distance.

Click to expand...

This is why you want a Nikon flash....It will do the work for you and you can have fun taking pictures. But all flash unit's do have a distance limitation. What distance do you think there will be between you and the subject?

MikeVDS said:

Hope these aren't too dumb of questions.

Click to expand...

The only dumb question will be the one that you don't ask.

You may want to go here and read....www.kenrockwell.com

threean2 said:

What lens are you using?

Click to expand...

The two lenses that came with my package were:
18-55mm 1:3.5-5.6G
and
55-200mm 1:4-5.6G

I'm using the 18-55 since the other one zooms in too close and any further away from the subject the built in flash has little effect.

threean2 said:

This is your decision but Nikon is known for it's Flash technology.
There is no better anywhere. You're putting a damper on a great
camera system by using a after market flash. Btw the 800 will give
you more reach, maybe another 10 feet and it's only a few ounces
heavier.

Click to expand...

Yeah, probably should have gotten the Nikon flash. Oh well.
The DC952AF is, however, made specifically for the Nikon D series,
so maybe I'm not too screwed. Hope anyway.

threean2 said:

If you don't want to blur the subject you will want a shutter that
will be on the fast side. That can be determined by the lens that
you use and the film speed (ISO) that you choose. First tell us
about the lens!

Click to expand...

see above.

threean2 said:

You can do either. The lens and ISO speed in conjunction with the
lighting in the stadium will determine your options. With a fast
lens and fast ISO you may be able to get away without a flash at
all, although it generally helps anyway.

Click to expand...

I'll experiment more as I get more familiar with all the features, but

the few photos I tried without a flash came out great, except for the riders in motion. They came out as a blured streak. I tried setting a faster shutter speed w/o flash, then they came out black. We only have one more series indoors, then move outdoors. I'm hoping it will all be mute once I get outside in the sunshine.

threean2 said:

This is why you want a Nikon flash....It will do the work for you
and you can have fun taking pictures. But all flash unit's do have
a distance limitation. What distance do you think there will be
between you and the subject?

Click to expand...

The indoor center of the track is probably 75' from where I can stand to take photos. Lots of jumping in the middle. The outer part of the track the action is within 10 feet, as they blast by me.

threean2 said:

The only dumb question will be the one that you don't ask.

Click to expand...

Thanks for all the advice.....to all that replied. I really appeciate it.

threean2 said:

You may want to go here and read....www.kenrockwell.com

Click to expand...

This is about what I get now, autofocus (prefocus) with built in flash. I did have to run it through Photoshop to brighten it up a bit.

I also just bought the D80 about a month ago and have much to learn. But if it's not too late I would cancel the order and buy the SB-600. I ordered mine from http://www.bhphoto.com this week and just recieved it last night. It is awesome! This is one of the best sites for photography gear (and no I don't benefit from that statement; I have just used them a few times and have been impressed with their service and prices).

The D80 uses the SB-600's full potential. Within 30 minutes of owning it I could very clearly see the difference between bounce and direct flash. I also enjoyed playing with the wireless flash mode using i-TTL with the D-80 in commander mode. This is cool!

That being said, the flash may help on your close up photos, but it seems like your lenses are the weak link for what you are trying to accomplish.

Good Luck!

--
Doug

What was your ISO set to?

MikeVDS said:

threean2 said:

What lens are you using?

Click to expand...

The two lenses that came with my package were:
18-55mm 1:3.5-5.6G
and
55-200mm 1:4-5.6G

I'm using the 18-55 since the other one zooms in too close and any
further away from the subject the built in flash has little effect.

MikeVDS said:

This is your decision but Nikon is known for it's Flash technology.
There is no better anywhere. You're putting a damper on a great
camera system by using a after market flash. Btw the 800 will give
you more reach, maybe another 10 feet and it's only a few ounces
heavier.

Click to expand...

Yeah, probably should have gotten the Nikon flash. Oh well.
The DC952AF is, however, made specifically for the Nikon D series,
so maybe I'm not too screwed. Hope anyway.

MikeVDS said:

If you don't want to blur the subject you will want a shutter that
will be on the fast side. That can be determined by the lens that
you use and the film speed (ISO) that you choose. First tell us
about the lens!

Click to expand...

see above.

MikeVDS said:

You can do either. The lens and ISO speed in conjunction with the
lighting in the stadium will determine your options. With a fast
lens and fast ISO you may be able to get away without a flash at
all, although it generally helps anyway.

Click to expand...

I'll experiment more as I get more familiar with all the features, but
the few photos I tried without a flash came out great, except for
the riders in motion. They came out as a blured streak. I tried
setting a faster shutter speed w/o flash, then they came out black.
We only have one more series indoors, then move outdoors. I'm
hoping it will all be mute once I get outside in the sunshine.

MikeVDS said:

This is why you want a Nikon flash....It will do the work for you
and you can have fun taking pictures. But all flash unit's do have
a distance limitation. What distance do you think there will be
between you and the subject?

Click to expand...

The indoor center of the track is probably 75' from where I can
stand to take photos. Lots of jumping in the middle. The outer part
of the track the action is within 10 feet, as they blast by me.

MikeVDS said:

The only dumb question will be the one that you don't ask.

Click to expand...

Thanks for all the advice.....to all that replied. I really
appeciate it.

MikeVDS said:

You may want to go here and read....www.kenrockwell.com

Click to expand...

This is about what I get now, autofocus (prefocus) with built in
flash. I did have to run it through Photoshop to brighten it up a
bit.

Click to expand...

After looking at your photo I have a good idea how close you were standing to the subject and I don't think that you need to buy another lens-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
But you do need an Army helmet, body armor, and a box of band aids?

You shooting in Auto? Because your ISO was 220. Way too low. Even in indoors at home with my SB600 I use at least ISO400. For built in flash try shooting at a high ISO like ISO800 to extend the flash range and shoot in aperture priority with the f stop as low as possible. Come out of auto if your using it and let you take more control. As for the flash you should have stuck with the SB600. The sync speed don't matter to you in this case. The lighting is so dim that the SS won't go beyond 1/60s anyway so having a higher sync speed than 1/250 ain't worth a toss in this situation. And it's tha camera that can sync..not the flash if i'm not mistaken? I doubt if it's true anyway and I don't think it will be as an intelligent flash as the SB600 which uses 'BL' balanced fill. Looking at a photo of that aftermarket flash it has that horrible screw in set-up too. That is outdated now and the SB's have a nifty one click locking device.
--
*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff

yatesd said:

I also just bought the D80 about a month ago and have much to
learn. But if it's not too late I would cancel the order and buy
the SB-600.

Click to expand...

I think that this is excellent advice. As another poster wisely said, Nikon is known for its flash technology, is the best at it, and there is no point in going aftermarket.

--
Roger (W6VZV)
Huntington Harbour, California
Surf City, USA

'I want to die peacefully, in my sleep, like my Grandfather...'
Not screaming, and in terror, like his passengers...'

threean2 said:

After looking at your photo I have a good idea how close you were
standing to the subject and I don't think that you need to buy
another lens-
-
-
-
-
But you do need an Army helmet, body armor, and a box of band aids?

Click to expand...

Well, I am standing behind a concrete wall with safety netting.

I'll see if I can return this flash (haven't even received it yet) and get the SB-600. Thanks for all the help.

I have not shot with the SB600, only SB800, but here are my thoughts...

MikeVDS said:

Hello all. Just got my first SLR Digital D80 after years with point
and shoot digitals. To say I'm a bit overwhelmed is an
understatement, but trying to learn. I have no idea what all the
settings are or do, so bare with me.
What I really want to do is mostly take photos of my son and
friends on the Motocross track. I've taken a few so far, but this
time of the year in Oregon they race in a simi enclosed indoor
arena due to the weather. I took my first photos with the D80 in
auto focus and built in flash. Found out right away I need a
stronger flash......obviously.

My first question is this. I read the reviews of the SB-600 and
ordered one online. I got a call from the place I ordered it and
was told it was backordered until mid-Jan. I was going to cancel
and try to find one elsewhere, when I got to talking to the guy.
When I told him what I wanted it for he recommended the Digital
Concepts 952AF for Nikon SLR. He said he had the SB-600 for his
D200 and switched. He said the 952AF had a faster sync than the
SB-600. So I ordered it instead, only $20 more. Does anyone know
anything about this flash and did I screw up? Are some flashes
faster than others?

Click to expand...

I know nothing about the off-brand flash, but I would go with the SB-600 (or 800, if you can). The biggest reason I can think of is the wireless remote function, and I doubt the other brand supports that. I am not sure of your situation, but if you are able, you could potentially setup your flash on a tripod or stand right at the edge of the track 75 feet away, and if the sensor on the flash is facing your camera, you can probably shoot from where you are, and the flash will fire right next to your subjects. It takes very little setup, and works like a charm.

MikeVDS said:

Second question. I know it's probably better to manual focus
eventually. What's the best way to manual focus a shot of fast
moving objects indoors so I don't blur the subject? Should I
prefocus on a location and how far will an external flash light
things up enough?

Click to expand...

For action photos, I would never manually focus. Actually, I trust the autofocus for everything much more than I do my own eyes. The exception would probably be for close-up photography, but I have yet to delve into that much. For action photos, use the AF-C mode, and it will keep your moving subjects in good focus most of the time.

MikeVDS said:

The middle of the track is probably around 75
feet from the sidelines. If I increase the shutter speed with the
flash compensate? Or will it be too dark at that distance.

Click to expand...

If you want to get flash from an on-camera SB800 (SB 600 would be slightly less powerful, I believe), to a location 75 feet away, you would have to use an ISO of 800-1600, with a fast lens (around f/2.8 or so). Shutter speed likely won't matter, but keep it as slow as you can to catch ambient lighting on the background, but fast enough to avoid blur from camera shake (probably 1/100 or faster with your 55mm lens, but try lower if you want.) Most likely your background will just come out dark unless there is really good lighting in the arena.

If you can, get the sb600, and put it 10 feet or so from the place you want to shoot your subject. Put on the diffuser, and start shooting. Make sure that the flash doesn't face toward the camera, of course. Any light coming directly off of the flash to the lens will cause lens flare and may cause the camera to under-expose. If you can shade the actual flash head from the camera in some way, even better, but make sure the sensor is directly visible to the camera to send the signalling.

MikeVDS said:

Hope these aren't too dumb of questions.

Click to expand...