Professional photography vs. "citizen journalism"

Interesting enough, talking about scuba diving... Just a couple of days ago I was at the aquarium and a couple of local divers went into the big tank to feed fish and clean the tank. From what I heard people say it was pretty common for diving students and various local divers to come in and do that. From what I understood they did it for free too(probably get a free pass to the aquarium or something).

If you want a prime example of people doing things for free though... do a search for Linux, Firefox, or much of the other open source software.
I have a hobby of scuba diving - I dont use money from my work of
photography to go & buy diving equipment and then travel and spend
my leisure time doing freebie maintainence on oil rigs & the like
to put professional divers out of work.....I just go diving & look
at pretty wrecks & fishes...
--
Your failure to be informed, does not make me a wacko.
John Loeffler.
equipment- lots of FulL FrAMe & whacky lenses.
--



Technical Info: Roseart U.S.A. Gold #2 pencil, Pentel High Polymer eraser, Academie sketch pad drawing paper. Drawn clumsily under relatively poor light.

http://www.geocities.com/wild_tiger_1

http://flickr.com/photos/selrahcharles/
 
I don't know what you do to earn your money, but it wouldn't be fun when suddenly everyone would do your work for free or they install a robot instead of you.

The situation now in photogrphy is like everyone who makes a meal from time to time would open a restaurant, where people would be fed for free.
I bet that would make a lot of cooks upset.

--
F90 - F4s - F100 - D70 - D2X -> http://www.RomanKasperski.de
 
Are amatures hating the pro's because they have the guts to make a
living from photography ?

I see more & more of this attitude and if the pro doesn't like it
he is whining ?

So if someone came into your industry and started giving away what
you need to make a living you would really just say "hey" I guess I
am going to have to adapt! You wouldn't be upset at all ?? right..

Yes, times are changing and we all will have to adapt.
Yes, exactly, you do need to adapt.

I'm sure that I've seen a pro in here upset that some "soccer mom"
with a 20D and L glass took pictures of the entire soccer team
for free.

And one would guess there are a few folks that write software, as I
do, that don't like the idea that people are writing software for free
and giving it away.

But that's life, and one needs to adapt.
We should
all be thankful to, and show some respect to the pros who have
taught us all so much.
I generally don't make decisions about who I am going to respect on
anything other than an individual basis. There are certainly many, many
people in here that I respect, but often I don't even know if they
are pro or amateur. As near as I can see, in both cases, they are
just helpful people that enjoy sharing their knowledge.
 
Uh oh. I guess I need to charge my guests at my next party, otherwise I will upset all the cooks, if I don't. What was I thinking, cooking with my own pots and pans, paying for the food, spending hours of labor to cook and prepare it, and just GIVING it away for free to everyone who comes to my dinner party.
The situation now in photogrphy is like everyone who makes a meal
from time to time would open a restaurant, where people would be
fed for free.
I bet that would make a lot of cooks upset.
 
Your signiture should read "And while you're at it..."

your = possisive (like his, her, etc)
you're = contraction of "you are"

By the way, I'm sure I've made some spelling error in this post (I always do).
I don't believe in fate, but I do believe in f/8! And while your at
it, don't be afraid to vote Libertarian, for REAL freedom!
 
Well I guess I am an exception then. I live a lifestyle built around photography. I do far better than just exsisting and most likely enjoy it far more than most amatuers.

Take a look at some of my work and tell me if it looks like I am just exsisting:

http://www.dbPIX.com
http://www.polarisimages.com/Portfolios/Photographers/Daniel_Bayer/
http://www.photo.net/photodb/member-photos?user_id=321228&include=all

I have been doing this for 30 years and I have to tell you, I am more passionate than ever, more energetic than ever and feel as though I am just getting started. I never worry about what the competition is doing, that has never intersted me. It all comes from inside and always will.
The only difference between a full time professional and an amateur
is that a full time professional sells images to exist. An amateur
pursues his hobby for pleasure, research, relaxation or whatever
stimulates him to take images.
 
realize or don't care about the impact it has those who are trying
to make a living. But as Film_ruled said, those that give it away
only effect those up to a certain point anyway.
Exactly! .. My question to the person who wrote the article the OP
pointed to.. and the subsequent irate professionals in this thread
.. is... Why should we? Its your place to make sure you earn a
living.. not ours. harsh but true I am afraid. Sorry if our hobby
impacts on your living.. but it's not something we should be taken
to task for is it?
I for one, am not irate. I just think your attitude stinks. You seem to think you are taking away work from pros, I really doubt you are. Unless someone at a match has come up to you and said you are taking away work from them, you most likely are not and might be juicing your ego more than stating facts.

You do respect those who are earning a living from this, right? And let me me clear: Respect is not that you bow down to the superior pro gods and not give away your photos. What I mean by respect is that I personally respect what it took for a musician to learn his trade, market, pay his dues and then have the tenacity to continue on. Respect is what I give anyone who has payed their dues, overcome adversity and obstacles and excels.

From your very first post, you have not shown very much respect. That is the main problem you are stirring up here. You seem to get something out of thinking that you are taking work from some pros. Again, that is why you are being taken to task and rightfully so.

This gloating is in very poor taste, can't you see that?
 
So if someone came into your industry and started giving away what
you need to make a living you would really just say "hey" I guess I
am going to have to adapt! You wouldn't be upset at all ?? right..
So, did I p!ss off all the professional plumbers because I helped my friend fix his toilet for free? I guess I should have charged him. Plus, I accepted another friend's help to install my flooring. Man, are the carpenters going to be upset with him. I guess I need to pay him before I get him into trouble. I also helped my neighbor put up his fence. Now I will have carpenters upset with me, too. I never realized all the professionals that I am putting out of work by not charging for my help - I need to stop doing this.
Yes, times are changing and we all will have to adapt. We should
all be thankful to, and show some respect to the pros who have
taught us all so much. Next time you post a question about how to
do something, stop and think about the wealth of knowledge
available to you because of the pro's that are on forums just like
this one.
Uhh...I think that most of the posters on this forum are probably amateurs. I know that on the forums that I normally post to, almost all are amateurs, and they still give (mostly) good advice.

P.S. I'm not a pro, but if I was, I wouldn't be threatened by non-pros or low priced pros. If I was, I would know that I was in the wrong business if I couldn't beat them. I have the feeling that the most vocal anti-"citizen journalists" are the "pros" that know that their work is not very good.
 
Sadly since digital technology and the internet have arrived on the
scene everyone can get in on the act. Nothing wrong with this
provided, when an image is sold for commercial use, the right fee
is charged.
The mass production of digital images from everyone, not just pros, has given more bargaining power to stock libraries and any other photo buyer. If you won't sell your image for a price they like, there's plenty of other photographers who will deal.

Just one of the disadvantages of digital photography, which is often overlooked.
 
I think you missed the point- he is sharing his work for free & others are directly making money from his freebies. Not in some etherial way like using a freebie package he has designed to create somthing else, but inserting his pictures directly into a media outlet to help sell it to the public & make a profit.

If people like Kirpax had not set themselves up with his pro equipment & his willingness to spend his own money to go to photograph these events (like some fantasy sports pro) & give pictures for free, these organisations would have no choice but to go without or pay somebody a decent wage to go and get them.

I agree with the other posters about good pros not being affected by this, but eventually one day in some way they will be.

I feel truly sorry for Kirpax, because it's clear his work is worth nothing, as nobody wants to pay him for it, nobody wants to hire him to do it, I guess that's why he just continues the mantra 'it's just a hobby'.

On the other hand these news editors could be just laughing behind his back, 'this guy supplies us with pictures for free, what a $3% . More profits for us at the expense of his time & equipment.'

Either way it looks like a loose loose situation to me.

--
Your failure to be informed, does not make me a wacko.
John Loeffler.
equipment- lots of FulL FrAMe & whacky lenses.
 
I think the important point here is that KIRPAX is directly producing a commodity which may have some intrinsic value, he is putting time & money into producing it, but is then giving it away free to an organisation which will directly make money for it. In the normal scheme of things they should be paying to get this material.

If I asked a painter & decorator to come & paint my house artistically for fee - would they do it ?

--
Your failure to be informed, does not make me a wacko.
John Loeffler.
equipment- lots of FulL FrAMe & whacky lenses.
 
5 years of freebies seems excessive to me........

I told you I dont make people unemployed from my hobby by doing stuff professional divers would do.

Going down to the local aquarium to feed the fish & rub the glass is not the stuff of professional divers......

--
Your failure to be informed, does not make me a wacko.
John Loeffler.
equipment- lots of FulL FrAMe & whacky lenses.
 
Going down to the local aquarium to feed the fish & rub the glass is not the stuff of professional divers......nobody is being put out of a job by that.

The software you metioned was set out by the makers like that, this guy is undercutting a job market by offering for free, what money making corporations should be paying for.

--
Your failure to be informed, does not make me a wacko.
John Loeffler.
equipment- lots of FulL FrAMe & whacky lenses.
 
Its your place to make sure you earn a
living.. not ours. harsh but true I am afraid. Sorry if our hobby
impacts on your living.. but it's not something we should be taken
to task for is it?
No it is not your place to insure a living is made. But an "in your face" attitude is not very appealing. Their is a difference between "rights and right. I know a photographer who freelances for fairly well circulated magazine. He like you has another job and does it for "fun". He does not get paid for his photos and pays his expenses to boot. The magazine is laughing all the way to the bank. Here's a mult-million dollar company which has has saved thousands and thousands of dollars because they've found someone who's only reward is a byline. To me, it's the silliest thing in the world. But it's his choice, and a model for that magazine to try and replicate as much as possible.

Your post seems to suggest that you have no empathy for professional photographers nor their concerns. So I doubt they show much to you if you just want to flaunt the fact that you have the ability to give away something that someone else can get paid for.

That photographer I mentioned earlier is a friend of mine. He was all excited because he recently got a cover. As I told him... great you got a cover, and it only COST you about $300 *$&%$ Magazine is laughing at you all the way to the bank, and some photographer is out about $1,500.

I believe people who give away photos to business entities (other than charities, family and friends) are just not confident enough that they can get paid for it. Otherwise, why would they not want to make money from their hobby?
--
Steve Mitchell
http://www.dphoto.us
http://www.musicpix.net
 
..feels threatened by amateurs, (s)he's already earning bottom coin from photography business and propably will be heading out business in not too distant future.

A real money making pro differentiates from average scum with skills, vision, talent, boldness, courage, resources, time and hard work that puts his/her work output constantly and clearly above Weekend Joe's best efforts.

-
http://www.jussivakkala.com
 
Thanks to the
internet, Pbase and iStock now allow millions of people around the
world to see pictures that would otherwise have just been stored
forever in someone's shoebox--and quite a few people are willing to
pay for them too. My brother just financed his new camera with
money he earned on iStock by selling what were essentially his
vacation photos.
--
  • Eric
http://web.mac.com/panosian
It is good that we can see interesting images taken by those who do not rely on their passion to pay the bills. By all means display images on the internet to show off your passion/talent, for everyone to enjoy and sell, but not on istock and the like as these organisations are devaluing the industry.

There are different levels of photographers, those at the very top who will always be in demand and can charge £10,000 per day +, the likes David Bailey. Others who charge in the thousands for commercial work and bread and butter photographers who earn in the medium to high hundreds, who are extremely competent, including editorial and studio based image makers.

It is the lower earners in the professional market, professional photographers, who do exactly what the client want, to a high standard, that can be replicated by experienced non professional photographers who are under the biggest threat. If they charge the same, or similar rates as the pro, fine, but not at $1.00 - $8.00 per image rates.

Photographers covering wars and specialist photographers, for example accredited sports photographers, are very rarely threatened by amateur photographers, for obvious reasons. I am less threatened as an accredited sports photographer from general snaps but under threat from powerful stock libraries, large publishing corporations and hard to swallow, irresponsible professional and semi professional photographers who work on the cheap.

Taking pictures for historical projects for the local community, family and friends doesn't offend me as a full time professional. Advertising images on istock at give away prices, when photography is no more than a hobby, does matter.

Sadly in the last 6 years the industry has seen several photographers come into a small sector of the industry (sports) desparate to get on board with a leading sports magazines and charge half the fee that was cahrged for a full days work 11 years ago. Several of these snappers are not skilled and produce sub standard images. Magazine editors these days inform me the public don't care about image quality and fees are a big factor in their decision to hire a photographer. They have accountants pushing for ever cheaper photo budgets so their shareholders are kept happy.

Some of the stunning bird photgraphy seen on DP review, not just sharp images against blue skies, and many other types of creative images displayed, are worthy of more than $1- $8 an image.

If you could substitute all of the istock type companies for decent libraries charging the realistic fees then we would see a fairer playing field for everyone, amateur and professional alike. I see no achievement in selling an image to a company, for the price of a large capuccino.

I obtain satisfaction when my image sells in competition with the most powerful stock libraries, and especially when I have been told my image was actually slightly more expensive than theirs and not therefore purchased becuase it was cheap.
 
..feels threatened by amateurs, (s)he's already earning bottom coin
from photography business and propably will be heading out business
in not too distant future.

A real money making pro differentiates from average scum with
skills, vision, talent, boldness, courage, resources, time and hard
work that puts his/her work output constantly and clearly above
Weekend Joe's best efforts.

-
http://www.jussivakkala.com
It's already been said before in the thread, it's not the top photographers that are threatened by rich hobbyists who give their work away for free. It's the local photographer trying to eak out a living in a business that's already hard to make money in, and the up-and-coming new guy trying to break into photography. What moral good is there in competing unfairly with these people from the security of your well-paid day job? Is a byline in the local magzine really worth it? Should they be allowed to make money without sharing the profit with you when you have done part of the work for them? Personally I don't think so, and thus I don't give free pictures to companies or papers.

Try competing by at least charging the same prices the lowest paid pros do. If your pictures are then still chosen over the pro's then I could agree they may be in the wrong business, or that you are indeed a good photographer. If the papers suddenly stop calling when you want to be paid then you know you were maybe not the photographer you believed you were. That would be a great incitament to try to improve your photography, set it as a challenge for yourself, be good enough that someone wants to pay for your work. This is why I as a hobbyist have set a price on my pictures, if and when someone buys my work then I know it is good, or at least good enough for people to part with their money for it. My conscience is also clear with regards to (mis-)using my financial situation to compete with struggling local pros.
 
..I can give a picture now and then for non-profitable organizational or other non-commercial use. It may be connected with nature protection, local organization etc. I thus support that organization with non-material goods, so to speak.

If the part asking picture is commercial, no matter how small business, I always ask money. They make business and I will charge them from my services. Only very naive beginner or photographer with weak self-confidence will give away his/her work for pennies or nothing. My motivators for photography are own happiness for my work or then money. Tap in the back or polite noise will not be enough from your part if you are going to make your money with my pictures.

-
http://www.jussivakkala.com
 
Kirpax, I have come to the conclusion your work is worth nothing - because nobody wants to pay you for it & you have to give it away for free. Or the editors are laughing at you now for supplying free stuff for them to make a profit from. Either scenario is not appealing to me, and in general you are in a small way devaluing the whole profession of sports photography in what you are doing.

I see you have kitted yourself out very well to continue your fantasy of being a sports photographer at the weekends, if it had no impact on the profession as a whole that would be fine, but it does because your are developing the fantasy further by actually submitting your photographs for free to media outlets. Like others have said for those news editors with accountants breathing down their necks, the easy option is to go for the free low quality pictures you are supplying. Where a paper may have had to pay in the past they are not now.

Your argument is Photographers must change the way they do things to keep up with developments & the way the media is expecting to behave.

my argument is the media organisations have to change the way they do business also. If they are clearly not making enough profit from selling newspapers they have to do something else to generate money. Rather than expect to pay nothing to people who supply pictures etc to them. This is simply an unsustainable way of keeping a qualified & experienced work force. Why should someone go to college to learn photography, buy expensive equipment & do an apprenticeship if they expect to get paid nothing at the end of it ?

What the media outlets will eventually end up with if they continue to behave in this way is a bunch of unqualified & untalented fantasist photographers - because anybody with any talent & and means to earn money will go elsewhere, and frankly the media will reap what they sow......

--
Your failure to be informed, does not make me a wacko.
John Loeffler.
equipment- lots of FulL FrAMe & whacky lenses.
 
No-one has a right to a job. It has to be earned. It's supply and demand. If supply exceeds demand, then too bad! Find something else to do. If it demand outstrips supply, then make hay! Simple stuff.
--
Darran
 

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