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Professional photography vs. "citizen journalism"

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Jani Jrvinen

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Hello,

since many people frequenting this forum are professional photographers, I wanted to share a link to an article just recently posted on The Register, UK.

The article is written by a pro photographer taking photos for newspapers, and he wants to fight against the recent trend of newspapers looking for cheap "user contributed content" (think mobile phone photos) under the pretext of making a service to the readers.

The article is here:

"How the anti-copyright lobby makes big business richer" by Sion Touhig:
http://www.theregister.com/2006/12/29/photojournalism_and_copyright/

What do you think about his views? I myself find the topic very interesting.

--
Regards,

Mr. Jani Järvinen
Helsinki Finland
 
Most media outlets have always wanted something for nothing - free 'stringers' free weekend photographers who will spend hours at some godforsaken football match to get their picture & name in a local paper.

It's just now they are very open & loud about it- so widening their potential submission base.

The local papers here pay freelancers £12 tops for a picture, so there is not much further to go to nothing. If joe public wants to get his hands dirty in the 80% of the gutter dredging, worthless media that exists and sometimes not even get credited for his work thats great. Joe public will not do a good job, other than to be in the right place at the right time for the odd freak happening.

Newspapers have a limited shelf life in my opinion, and they know it, the whole industry is going through a dramatic shake up, they want something for nothing as they are not making the profits they used to as paper sales slump, stills photography may be a casualty of this movement as web based video content becomes faster & more acessible. And as the regular paper buying generation dies out the shift gets more rapid. The press photographer will be a different annimal in 10-20 years time.

--
Your failure to be informed, does not make me a wacko.
John Loeffler.
equipment- lots of FulL FrAMe & whacky lenses.
 
The purpose of newspapers, media, etc. is to provide the news to readers, etc. not to necessarily provide news photographers a living. Good news photographers will still be around, however, because they can go to a location and likely have a better probability of getting a good news shot. Amatuer shots will likely be a hit or miss affair.
--
Leon
http://homepage.mac.com/leonwittwer/landscapes.htm
 
Leon Wittwer said:
The purpose of newspapers, media, etc. is to provide the news to
readers, etc. not to necessarily provide news photographers a
living. Good news photographers will still be around, however,
because they can go to a location and likely have a better
probability of getting a good news shot. Amatuer shots will likely
be a hit or miss affair.
--
Leon
http://homepage.mac.com/leonwittwer/landscapes.htm
Click to expand...
 
Well of course newspapers will take whatever they can get especially if it is free

Obviously sometimes this 'citizen journalism' is the only content available as often a pro will not be on site

Where i think this goes the wrong way is newspapers publishing awful cell phone images or just bad photos where they could send someone to get decent work done.

But again they are in for the money and printed newspapers arent doing as good as they where a while ago either.

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
puts out various editions targeting suburbs. They often pick up photos taken by local photographers of events which they were unlikely to cover. They monitor my church photos and occasionally publish one. I get permission from the people in the shot and provide their names to the Commercial Appeal.
--
Juli
http://www.pbase.com/julivalley/galleries
Canon FiveDee, Canon 2oD, Canon Gee3, and Canon S7o, Fuji Eff30.

 
There are many articles along the same lines. many debates on many forums and all started by professional photographers who are not willing to adapt to the ongoing situation. It will get worse for them. Just like pop singers now have to sell there tracks for next to nothing on the internet rather than silly high street prices.. they adapted.

I am worse than the citizen photographer with his snapper or mobile.... I have the equipment and I get to events (mostly sports) .. I am sports accredited. have licences in the UK .. and I am happy to give my pictures away. Why?

It's my hobby!

What right does a professional have to tell me what I can photograph and what I should do with my pictures... It is not my place to ensure they make a living just like they don't help me with my hobby.

When I take a decent picture I want as many people to see it is possible.. don't you? A picture isn't a picture unless it's being looked at. I wan't to go to the best events. The top sports events. Why shouldn't I? I want to have the best camera and the best equipment.. Why shouldn't I .. I want as many people to see my pics as possible. I don't want people turning them away..and whu shouldn't I?

Photography .. sports especially is my hobby and it's what I love doing... Photography isn't a profession only thing.. people are allowed to have it as a hobby.. Do Professionals worry about me and if I am getting the best out of my hobby.. do they help me? No.. so why do they think I am going to take them into consideration?

It's my hobby and I am not going to stop being the best I can at it because professionals who want the money more than the love of photography tell me I am wrong to give my pics away.

Wow...I feel goood :)

--
http://www.kipax.com
 
I left a high paying job to get serious in photography. A harder thing to do financially than one might imagine. But one thing I did was start supporting a local theatrical arts group by taking publicity shots.

Because their press releases were equally apalling, I started doing that. The local paper receiving these items contacted me and asked me to be a stringer for them--an on-call reporter if you will.

A few months later, they asked me to write a weekly column as well as do some weekend reporting. Then I also started covering the "arts" in the community".
In November, I became a full time reporter with the paper. A couple caveats:

Newspapers have a tremendous appetite for topical information: news, photos and human intererst pieces. The worker bee folks are paid poorly.

It's exhilerating to see your name in the paper--as a subject or as a writer/photographer. If you don't want to do it, don't.
Don't moan about what the public is willing to do, you won't change it.

If submissions are good enough, or it's a slow enough news day, they WILL get used.

Just my 2 cents!

BooRadley
 
Kipix,

This is just great. As long as the sun is shining and it is convienient for you to go to a game the media can get "free photos" Now throw in some rain, sleet or heavan forbid snow, and all of a sudden you have a deadline at work and you can't make the big football game! Now where are the photos for the media outlet gonna come from?

Your type of photo source is very very unreliable. Since you give your photos away you have no deadline with the media. If your image just don't turn out you have nothing to lose. The newspaper that is counting on you does but you don't.

This is vomit from an enthusiast who loves to see his name in a free byline. I have seen many and yes even a few real good shots. Thjey last for about 6 months and when the fun wears off (and it always does) they all of a sudden disapear.

Yes they will take your free images but they will never consider you a photographer to be relied on.

By the way... I have a newborn neice. Will you spend 3 hours with us this weekend and show me a few hundred proofs? i will pay you the same way the newspaper does...

Get off you soap box. Photography is suppose to be fun but don't spew your vomit down upon pros who have been there rain or shine for 25 years!

Wow...now I feel better.

Bric
--
Photo Gallery @ http://www.therothenbergers.com

 
Agree with you. Way too much whinging among professional community about the facts of business. Good editorial photographers will always be in demand to get the best pictures most of the time . But when pics of a breaking story are few and far between - and amatuers with cameraphones, compacts and the like are on the scene already, why shouldn't their captures be used abundantly? A lot of whining is simply pros who are getting crowded and feeling the pinch of competition. The best will always rise to the top and their work will continue to be published.
KIPAX said:
There are many articles along the same lines. many debates on many
forums and all started by professional photographers who are not
willing to adapt to the ongoing situation. It will get worse for
them. Just like pop singers now have to sell there tracks for next
to nothing on the internet rather than silly high street prices..
they adapted.

I am worse than the citizen photographer with his snapper or
mobile.... I have the equipment and I get to events (mostly sports)
.. I am sports accredited. have licences in the UK .. and I am
happy to give my pictures away. Why?

It's my hobby!

What right does a professional have to tell me what I can
photograph and what I should do with my pictures... It is not my
place to ensure they make a living just like they don't help me
with my hobby.

When I take a decent picture I want as many people to see it is
possible.. don't you? A picture isn't a picture unless it's being
looked at. I wan't to go to the best events. The top sports events.
Why shouldn't I? I want to have the best camera and the best
equipment.. Why shouldn't I .. I want as many people to see my pics
as possible. I don't want people turning them away..and whu
shouldn't I?

Photography .. sports especially is my hobby and it's what I love
doing... Photography isn't a profession only thing.. people are
allowed to have it as a hobby.. Do Professionals worry about me and
if I am getting the best out of my hobby.. do they help me? No..
so why do they think I am going to take them into consideration?

It's my hobby and I am not going to stop being the best I can at it
because professionals who want the money more than the love of
photography tell me I am wrong to give my pics away.

Wow...I feel goood :)

--
http://www.kipax.com
Click to expand...
--
“My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-*****.”
Jack Nicholson
 
BricRoth said:
Kipix,

This is just great. As long as the sun is shining and it is
convienient for you to go to a game the media can get "free photos"
Now throw in some rain, sleet or heavan forbid snow, and all of a
sudden you have a deadline at work and you can't make the big
football game! Now where are the photos for the media outlet gonna
come from?
Click to expand...
Are you joking... I ahve been doing this for 5 years+ and I do average 2 games a week.. sometimes 6.. I gte to as many as I can.. I also do womens football and the very low non league wiht maybe three men and a dog there... as well as top flight football matches.. I am in the UK .. its hardly ever sunny :) I sit through rain, ice and snow many times... I wire my pictures though if needed after the game.

You have decided because I am not making a living then I cant do as good a job.. which makes you a bit blinkered doesn't it:)
BricRoth said:
Your type of photo source is very very unreliable. Since you give
your photos away you have no deadline with the media. If your
Click to expand...
yes I do... midweek games 10.30 and sat games 11.30am sunday unless a sunday paper then half time and full time.. but mostly my pics go to daily papers.. I ahve laptop and wirelss acess.. most club have an internet connection and those that dont I will use the old mobile

again you are assuming a lot
BricRoth said:
image just don't turn out you have nothing to lose. The newspaper
that is counting on you does but you don't.
Click to expand...
My reputation as a reliable photographer.. who wont be used again if i let poeple down.. Money isn't everything
BricRoth said:
This is vomit from an enthusiast who loves to see his name in a
free byline. I have seen many and yes even a few real good shots.
Thjey last for about 6 months and when the fun wears off (and it
always does) they all of a sudden disapear.
Click to expand...
5 years+.. and I can prove it with press cuttings. and my enthusiasm gets stronger

again why do you presume everyone is a stereotype of your imagination?
BricRoth said:
Yes they will take your free images but they will never consider
you a photographer to be relied on.
Click to expand...
sigh... really ?
BricRoth said:
By the way... I have a newborn neice. Will you spend 3 hours with
us this weekend and show me a few hundred proofs? i will pay you
the same way the newspaper does...
Click to expand...
not unless she is kicking a football :)... did you read all my post or just get upset and reply?
BricRoth said:
Get off you soap box. Photography is suppose to be fun but don't
spew your vomit down upon pros who have been there rain or shine
for 25 years!
Click to expand...
EXACTLY.. supposed to be fun... thats what i am doing but people like you try to stop me having as much fun as I can... but it dont work :)

--
http://www.kipax.com
 
Are amatures hating the pro's because they have the guts to make a living from photography ?

I see more & more of this attitude and if the pro doesn't like it he is whining ?

So if someone came into your industry and started giving away what you need to make a living you would really just say "hey" I guess I am going to have to adapt! You wouldn't be upset at all ?? right..

Yes, times are changing and we all will have to adapt. We should all be thankful to, and show some respect to the pros who have taught us all so much. Next time you post a question about how to do something, stop and think about the wealth of knowledge available to you because of the pro's that are on forums just like this one.
 
BricRoth said:
Kipix,

This is just great. As long as the sun is shining and it is
convienient for you to go to a game the media can get "free photos"
Now throw in some rain, sleet or heavan forbid snow, and all of a
sudden you have a deadline at work and you can't make the big
football game! Now where are the photos for the media outlet gonna
come from?
Click to expand...
Any media outlet that hasn't covered itself for this scenario doesn't deserve to be in business, and/or won't be for long.
BricRoth said:
This is vomit from an enthusiast who loves to see his name in a
free byline.
Click to expand...
You'd prefer not to have your name in the byline?
BricRoth said:
Yes they will take your free images but they will never consider
you a photographer to be relied on.
Click to expand...
Ces't la vie
BricRoth said:
By the way... I have a newborn neice. Will you spend 3 hours with
us this weekend and show me a few hundred proofs? i will pay you
the same way the newspaper does...
Click to expand...
For a photographer - going out and taking pictures is probably far more rewarding than babysitting your neice. If a job was just about money - who would ever choose photography (except the few high end commercial shooters)?
BricRoth said:
Get off you soap box. Photography is suppose to be fun but don't
spew your vomit down upon pros who have been there rain or shine
for 25 years!
Click to expand...
Who's the bad guy?

The part-timer earning a buck on the side from his/her hobby ..

...or the Newspaper for trying to stay in the black, and realising that the pro's pics are_not_always that far removed from the rest.

I know who the sad guy is. The whinger.
 
Do only pros offer advice to other are do amatuers offer equally as good advice? Some people seem to be under the impression that a photographer making a living out of photography is somehow more knowledgable and better than an amatuer hobbyist photographer... Why is that?

I don't think anyone hates anyone do they... But professionals do seem to think they are better than amatuers... Your very posts suggests you think professionals know more than hobbyists..

professionals and hobbyist can be equal in knowledge and expertise.. a hobbyist can know more than a professional and the other way around

Perhaps your getting mixed up with experienced and newbie... please remember hobbyist/amatuers does not = newbie

--
http://www.kipax.com
 
Tom Batinich said:
Are amatures hating the pro's because they have the guts to make a
living from photography ?
Click to expand...
I make a living from photography and I don't hate other pros or amatuers, as a group, just can't bear the whingers though.
Tom Batinich said:
So if someone came into your industry and started giving away what
you need to make a living you would really just say "hey" I guess I
am going to have to adapt! You wouldn't be upset at all ?? right..
Click to expand...
If the 'pros' in any industry aren't providing a product or a service well above the 'amatuers' (or them above it enough to justify the price to the buyer end-user) then they should take a hard look at themselves and/or why they entered the business. They need to improve, or adapt, or get out of the kitchen.
Tom Batinich said:
Yes, times are changing and we all will have to adapt. We should
all be thankful to, and show some respect to the pros who have
taught us all so much. Next time you post a question about how to
do something, stop and think about the wealth of knowledge
available to you because of the pro's that are on forums just like
this one.
Click to expand...
Is it only pros offering advice?

--
“My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-*****.”
Jack Nicholson
 
Good for, but, your attitude is terrible.

It's no skin off my back, we are world's apart in terms of location and ability level. But why the attitude? Are you unhappy as a programer? I sure would be, can't say I blame you.

I bet you really live for those days when you can pretend you are some hot shot sports shooter, but:

I think the only person you are any threat to is your self. Most pros would not really give a hoot about what you do, especially the one's you can't touch: the good ones.

Don't like the way reality sounds? Then try coming to terms with it on your own instead of stirring the strange pot you have done here.

Enjoy your hobby, and your lovely programmer job, but really, be a good chap and don't rub it in the faces of the others members here, that is in poor taste.
KIPAX said:
There are many articles along the same lines. many debates on many
forums and all started by professional photographers who are not
willing to adapt to the ongoing situation. It will get worse for
them. Just like pop singers now have to sell there tracks for next
to nothing on the internet rather than silly high street prices..
they adapted.

I am worse than the citizen photographer with his snapper or
mobile.... I have the equipment and I get to events (mostly sports)
.. I am sports accredited. have licences in the UK .. and I am
happy to give my pictures away. Why?

It's my hobby!

What right does a professional have to tell me what I can
photograph and what I should do with my pictures... It is not my
place to ensure they make a living just like they don't help me
with my hobby.

When I take a decent picture I want as many people to see it is
possible.. don't you? A picture isn't a picture unless it's being
looked at. I wan't to go to the best events. The top sports events.
Why shouldn't I? I want to have the best camera and the best
equipment.. Why shouldn't I .. I want as many people to see my pics
as possible. I don't want people turning them away..and whu
shouldn't I?

Photography .. sports especially is my hobby and it's what I love
doing... Photography isn't a profession only thing.. people are
allowed to have it as a hobby.. Do Professionals worry about me and
if I am getting the best out of my hobby.. do they help me? No..
so why do they think I am going to take them into consideration?

It's my hobby and I am not going to stop being the best I can at it
because professionals who want the money more than the love of
photography tell me I am wrong to give my pics away.

Wow...I feel goood :)

--
http://www.kipax.com
Click to expand...
 
if an amateur can deliver an image in the same quaity as an pro,but for less money, then that image will be the one bought.

It is not the professional or amateur tag that counts anymore, it is the actual content.

So if an company can go to istochphoto and get images for 1 dollar at the same quality as an image for 200 dollar, what do you think they choose.

--

Rickard Hansson
 
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