What colur is your flash?

I'm not a flash expert but I believe most flashes come with built in warm tone filters because the original flash light is slightly too cool (at least too cool for daylight slide film). I read a test many years ago that compared the colour temperature of different flashes from different manufacturers. The Nikon flashes were very accurate in that test, whereas for example the Metz and Canon flashes were too cool.

It seems likely that the filtering is different on the SB800 vs the built in D200 flash. I have no idea if this is deliberate or not. My guess is that the SB800 is more accurate and the built in flash a bit on the warm side to give a more "pleasing" result for less advanced users.

It has everything to do with the variables. I just explained it!

Same as a 60W versus 100W Light bulb incadenscant WB setting. Better yet use a "Reveal" bulb versus a standard light bulb, this will be more akin to what you are seeing.

If you D2X had a built in flash it would be different color. This isn't traditional film. This is all purely static WB setting versus output/color light of flash.

I see you have other flashes, try using your SB20, I'm sure you get a different result too.

If you don't like the results you are getting either use Auto WB for a more seemless look, figure out how to dial variables for the specfic flash WB, or make sure you are using the flash correctly (don't try to fill a room with the onboard flash, etc).

I'm not sure why it is difficult to understand...

Peter Ibbotson said:

Northing to do with the variables you mention.

I will spell it out very simply for you.

Same camera (D200).
Same time, within seconds.
Same location, exactly.
Same WB setting (flash).
First shot: built in flash
Second shot: SB-800
First shot: warm
Second shot: cool.

Question: why do different Nikon flashes give differenet results?

pi

Click to expand...

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I have two SB-800 that are about 500K apart in their output. I've also noticed that both vary in color temp depending on output levels if I've selected "flash" for WB (see my thought below).

I just got and started shooting with a D80, and its internal flash is a bit warmer than the warmest of the SB800s. My guess is that Nikon assumed that the most likely subject for the internal flash would be people, and warmer looks better with people.

My Elinchrom studio monolights are rock solid consistent across all three of them, at every output setting. Perhaps 100 to 200K total. God bless the Swiss. I've used other studio lights and with some the color temp can vary as much as 1000k from highest to lowest output setting, and even up to 500k variation from flash to flash. Those experiences drove me to buy the Elinchrom units. The Elinchroms are 5500k. At any rate, I'm not surprised to find unit to unit differences in the SB800 given the differences I've seen in studio units costing thousands.

The WB definition "flash", I've decided, is near worthless. I have stored WB profiles in ACR for each of the SB800, and for my Elinchroms. I batch apply the color temp before I do any post processing. To make my life a tiny bit simpler, I use one SB800 as the primary with my d2x. That means that any one flash situation, I know which profile to apply. I've now devoted the other one to the d80, same reason. When I use them together, I use the warmer one as the primary light, and gel the other to be warmer still.

Just a thought. Nikon's intro of the SB800 talked about "automatic adjustment of white balance", where the flash communicated with the camera to tell the camera what the actual WB would be for each flash output level. You have to have your camera set to Auto WB to do that. I find that I get more consistent shot to shot color results with my D2X and either SB800 with WB set to auto, which I always attributed to the camera/flash communication. (Each flash stays consistent around its color temp bias.)

I wonder if the D200 internal flash does NOT have that communication going on.

Peter Ibbotson said:

Over the past week I have been using my D2x and D200 on the same
locations, using an SB-800 on the D2x, and the built-in flash on
the D200.

The output from the D200 has been consistently warmer. At first I
guessed this must be due to a difference in the sensors between the
two cameras. I then tried the SB-800 on the D200, and discoverted
that it then gave a markedly cooler image.

Two comparison shots:

D200 with built-in flash http://www.pbase.com/ibbo/image/72216676
D200 with SB-800 http://www.pbase.com/ibbo/image/72216678

Ignore the reflection - the wall is much cooler with the SB-800,
and this is the same with all shots using this unit.

Should two Nikon flash units give such different colours> Any views?

Peter Ibbotson

http://www.pbase.com/ibbo

Click to expand...

The colour temperature of the sb800 output is quite inconsistent, somewhat between 5750 K and 6300 K. So it is biased toward the cooler side. This is usual with big flashes, same with Canon's 580. On the other hand, smaller guns like like sb600, and probably the built-in flash of d200, are usually much warmer; e.g. the sb600 CT is ca 5700 to 5850 K.

Thanks. This is exactly the kind of experience I was looking for. I agree that the WB setting 'flash' is pretty useless.

pi

http://www.pbase.com/ibbo

Peter Ibbotson said:

The point here is not that it's different cameras giving a
different colour, like film, as you say. It's different fhashguns
giving different colours.

What is the point of setting the WB to 'flash' if the result
depends on exactly which Nikon flash you are using?

pi

Click to expand...

There is no way you can expect the onboard flash and the SB600/800 to be the same, There are settings on both flashes to change the settings. Shoot RAW and all your troubles will be over.
--

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming - ' Wow! What a ride!'

Peter Ibbotson said:

I care because I prefer to get the settings right and not spend
hours doing PP on 100's of shots. Question remains: why does flash
WB come out differently with diffreent Nikon flash units on the
same camera?

pi

Click to expand...

I would say learn your equiment and adjust for it like everyone else does.
--

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming - ' Wow! What a ride!'

Peter Ibbotson said:

Northing to do with the variables you mention.

I will spell it out very simply for you.

Same camera (D200).
Same time, within seconds.
Same location, exactly.
Same WB setting (flash).
First shot: built in flash
Second shot: SB-800
First shot: warm
Second shot: cool.

Question: why do different Nikon flashes give differenet results?

pi

Click to expand...

If they were going to be the same there would be no need to buy a SB800 then, There is no way you can compare the 2 flashes and expect them to be the same K..... Cut and dried.
--

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming - ' Wow! What a ride!'

I measured my D200, D80 and SB800 with my color temperature meter. Apart from the fact that there's some shot to shot inconsistency of up to 200 degrees Kelvin, all three flashes are more or less equal in color output. I measured values between 5100 and 5600 K depending on output strength. All my units are fairly new. Flashes that are used extensively will change color over time.

If the color between your samples is really different, put a 1/8 CTO or 1/8 CTB filter (partly) over the head to adjust the color.

Peter Ibbotson said:

Over the past week I have been using my D2x and D200 on the same
locations, using an SB-800 on the D2x, and the built-in flash on
the D200.

The output from the D200 has been consistently warmer. At first I
guessed this must be due to a difference in the sensors between the
two cameras. I then tried the SB-800 on the D200, and discoverted
that it then gave a markedly cooler image.

Two comparison shots:

D200 with built-in flash http://www.pbase.com/ibbo/image/72216676
D200 with SB-800 http://www.pbase.com/ibbo/image/72216678

Ignore the reflection - the wall is much cooler with the SB-800,
and this is the same with all shots using this unit.

Should two Nikon flash units give such different colours> Any views?

Peter Ibbotson

http://www.pbase.com/ibbo

Click to expand...

--
Philip

I am shooting RAW. I just need to find a quick method of doing the PP quickly using two units with differing output.

pi

Try using the Auto WB setting with the SB800, and with the on-camera, and see if things are better. It looks better to me - the gap between my warmest and coolest SB800 is way, way smaller then, so maybe Nikon wasn't just puffing smoke when they talk about the SB800 communicating with the camera about the color temp of each flash.

Sometimes things look better because you want them to look better... another data point would be nice.

Not at all difficult to understand, but what I was looking for is information. Since you are so smart, perhaps you have an idea of the actual WB difference between the units? BTW what's this about an SB20?

pi