-
Welcome to the new forums! Please read this first. For known issues we are working to resolve, click here.
An "ideal" compact digicam
- Thread starter joe mama
- Start date
sspraetz
Member
remember the start of this post: "5D owners alike"
how much adds up a 5D plus a pair of decent fixed focal lenses?
I know the price of Leicas are absurd (or zeiss) but nobody said the "ideal" snapshot equipment should be cheap or even affordable.
I could buy some Leica lenses....
but it´s hard to spend 4,000+ on a faulty body that at best is "digital" meaning tomorrow will be obsolete.
My point is: less is more: less features, less weight, less bulk, more image quality.
from the original post I like to have nearly everything, but I don´t want to sacrifice image quality by any means, so I can live without zoom, retractable lens, autofocus, video, flippable screen, and so on.
in other words: I want to pay for
-the best optics
-the best sensor (5Mpx will do at 35mm FF so photosites are BIG - less noise)
-RAW files
-fast response
.... and thats about it.
everything black and matte (anodized aluminium will do) on a size that fits a pocket maybe a big pocket say 5"x4"x2" without lens
leave all the other non photographic features for the mass-market digicams
think about a military weapon. just what it needs to be effective, no less no more.
unfortunately I should be a strange customer, as anyone is doing just the opposite: smaller sensors, more and more pixels, more video, more FPS, wifi, touchscreens, mobile phone optics, super-mega-zooms (10x) etc.
maybe one day canon will say "hey, lets take a 5D sensor, stick it on a RangeFinder body with Leica mount, forget about marketing and please some silly nerds around the world"
200mm
Senior Member
--Hum there is a better choice, a D40!!
' Nothing is so firmly believed as what we least know'
Daniel Browning
Senior Member
I would prefer a fast prime lens to go with my 3200. To achieve that, we'll need a big sensor or a low-megapixel sensor; to keep size down, I'd be happy to take a 2MP on a tiny 1/3" sensor.
1) 50mm f/1.4 IS prime lens
2) 2 MP with an ISO 3200 that matches the 5D.
--
Daniel
I had never owned a digicam until a month and half ago when I picked up a G7 hoping that it would fulfill the role as an "ideal" compact camera. Here are my findings.
Currently, the G7 and the LX2 are the big players in this niche market. I didn't buy the LX2 because it didn't have any optical viewfinder. As I have found out over the last month or so that coming from SLR's that I miss the viewfinder more than ever. In fact I'd like to see the G7 have aperture and shutter speed info in the optical viewfinder as well as a simple LED +- for proper exposure. I really do not like holding the camera away from my body looking at the LCD. It is poor for composition, shaky hands and it makes it very clear that your taking a photo which isn't exactly that discreet for candid shooting. I'd prefer to shoot without the LCD at all and only use the optical viewfinder.
I know the whole RAW issue has been bashed to death, but really this camera needs it with its low dynamic range sensor. Blowing highlights is something that is not much of an issue with my 20D for example. Apples and oranges yes, but blown highlights mean exposure compensation which means other compromises with exposure. The G7 should have had a larger sensor in it like the Pro 1 at 8 megapixels. Heck as Joe Mama noted in his post 6 "perfect" megapixels would be better than 10 just OK ones.
SENSOR DUST - Ok, so instead of Canon putting the sensor dust removal technology in the Rebel XTi they should be putting it in their compact cameras!!!!!!!!!! Sure I've had a couple of specks on my 20D - so out comes my big bulb blower and it's gone. My G7 has a huge chunk of dust on it and no way to remove it because the lens does not detach. What am I suppose to do with that? Send it to Canon? What if it happens again? They need to get working on this.
Without making this post many pages long, the G7 is close to the ideal. It's size and shape are really great. Nice to carry around, the camera has a LOT of features. In a way the controls and layout, click wheel etc. are very "Canon DSLR like." There are features here on the G7 like the assignable "direct print" button that I hope will transfer to the next version of the 5D. They have done a lot right here and I'm overall very happy with the G7 as my first digicam, but my DSLR gear won't be getting dusty any time soon.
Currently, the G7 and the LX2 are the big players in this niche market. I didn't buy the LX2 because it didn't have any optical viewfinder. As I have found out over the last month or so that coming from SLR's that I miss the viewfinder more than ever. In fact I'd like to see the G7 have aperture and shutter speed info in the optical viewfinder as well as a simple LED +- for proper exposure. I really do not like holding the camera away from my body looking at the LCD. It is poor for composition, shaky hands and it makes it very clear that your taking a photo which isn't exactly that discreet for candid shooting. I'd prefer to shoot without the LCD at all and only use the optical viewfinder.
I know the whole RAW issue has been bashed to death, but really this camera needs it with its low dynamic range sensor. Blowing highlights is something that is not much of an issue with my 20D for example. Apples and oranges yes, but blown highlights mean exposure compensation which means other compromises with exposure. The G7 should have had a larger sensor in it like the Pro 1 at 8 megapixels. Heck as Joe Mama noted in his post 6 "perfect" megapixels would be better than 10 just OK ones.
SENSOR DUST - Ok, so instead of Canon putting the sensor dust removal technology in the Rebel XTi they should be putting it in their compact cameras!!!!!!!!!! Sure I've had a couple of specks on my 20D - so out comes my big bulb blower and it's gone. My G7 has a huge chunk of dust on it and no way to remove it because the lens does not detach. What am I suppose to do with that? Send it to Canon? What if it happens again? They need to get working on this.
Without making this post many pages long, the G7 is close to the ideal. It's size and shape are really great. Nice to carry around, the camera has a LOT of features. In a way the controls and layout, click wheel etc. are very "Canon DSLR like." There are features here on the G7 like the assignable "direct print" button that I hope will transfer to the next version of the 5D. They have done a lot right here and I'm overall very happy with the G7 as my first digicam, but my DSLR gear won't be getting dusty any time soon.
M
misha
Guest
Why does everyone assume that if you cut the resolution on a tiny sensor to 6, 2mp etc. you will get silky smooth ISO3200? By that logic entry-level low resolution digicams should be low noise kings.
--
Misha
Daniel Browning
Senior Member
Everything in your post is technically possible with today's technology except for good performance at 3200 and 6MP. Here's the reason:
The 5D has a 35mm sensor (855mm surface area) and 12 MP. That's a ratio of 71:1. Lens size is determined by the medium size, so one must use a very small sensor to allow a lens that will fold into a small compact.
To attain the same noise performance as the 5D, the area-to-megapixel ratio must be maintained. On a G7 the sensor size is only 1 1/8": 38.2mm total area. That yields a total megapixel count of just 2 megapixels. Similarly, if the 20D had the same sensor as the 5D, but cropped to APS-C size, it would be just 4.36 MP, not 8.2 MP.
Of course, 2 megapixels is only enough to make decent 5x7 prints (depending on your standard of quality).
In the hands of even the most ignorant snapshooters (i.e. the majority of them), it would produce much better 4x6 than what they're getting currently with 10MP flash-ruined indoor shots.
Alas, the manufacturers wont ever make one.
--
Daniel
The 5D has a 35mm sensor (855mm surface area) and 12 MP. That's a ratio of 71:1. Lens size is determined by the medium size, so one must use a very small sensor to allow a lens that will fold into a small compact.
To attain the same noise performance as the 5D, the area-to-megapixel ratio must be maintained. On a G7 the sensor size is only 1 1/8": 38.2mm total area. That yields a total megapixel count of just 2 megapixels. Similarly, if the 20D had the same sensor as the 5D, but cropped to APS-C size, it would be just 4.36 MP, not 8.2 MP.
Of course, 2 megapixels is only enough to make decent 5x7 prints (depending on your standard of quality).
In the hands of even the most ignorant snapshooters (i.e. the majority of them), it would produce much better 4x6 than what they're getting currently with 10MP flash-ruined indoor shots.
Alas, the manufacturers wont ever make one.
--
Daniel
Daniel Browning
Senior Member
I should have mentioned that it would be the same sensor technology as the 5D, only "cropped". For example, the 1Dm2 has the same sensor as the 5D, only cropped. It has less megapixels, but the same noise performance. What I would like is if they cropped it all the way down to compact-sized sensors.
--
Daniel
...those dimensions could be met with the lens, then maybe we're talkin'. But a quality 24 / 2 lens for an APS-C size sensor might be pretty big, no? Or could it be made nice and small?
--
--joe
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
...that it is not nearly so compact as the G7 (by a long shot), especially when you add on a fast zoom lens, and does not have a video mode which is something I look for in a compact.
--
--joe
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
...I could go down to maybe even 4 MP to achieve better noise characteristics, but 2 MP is too little for me.
--
--joe
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
That's what I was thinking. But the slow lens, poor ISO performance (compared to, say, the Fujis), and lack of RAW killed it for me. As you noted, the ease with which highlights are blown is an issue that I noticed in the test pics.
Reduce the range of the lens, speed it up, reduce the MP, throw in RAW and they'd have a winner. Still want 1024 x 768 x 30 fps video and a flip-out LCD, though. : )
--
--joe
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
...I didn't mean "as good as the 5D" or even close, for that matter. What I meant was that ISO 3200 would be a lot better with 6 MP than it is with 10 MP, and I'd rather the improved noise performance (note: not "5D-like" noise performance -- just "improved") over the extra MP.
I still want at least 4 MP. Still, you might see such a compact come out sometime. But I wouldn't bet for or against it.
--
--joe
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
Was the lens really big? My bad on that, then. I thought it could be made at about the same size as the G7's 35-200mm equivalent. Oh well. As for noise, I never meant to imply that its performance would match the 5D, or even 20D, for that matter. Just have much better noise handling than other compacts, including the Fuji, since I think Canon could beat them out in this regard.Yes, they don't make 'em like that any mo'It was not very
compact though - at least that lens is quite prominent. As for
ISO3200, I don't think limiting resolution to 6mp will make a world
of difference - the best to date is Fuji F30, which is 6mp, and it
achieves clean ISO1600 in large part through fairly heavy noise
reduction.
--
--joe
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
Yep, dead right, that's why I hesitate sometimes to take out my 5D+24-105 in a public atmosphere, which by the way is so far the best combo I can think of but it does stand out.
Right again, as you say further down it's the sensor that counts really and until they give up on this stupid Megapixel ratrace we're stuck with overloaded APS and less.
Or even take the G6 style (love the camera but, I know I can't shoot at anything above 200ISO at most and the sensor leaves me crying for more every time I open up its albeit RAW files), paint it black, fit the equivalent 35mm f2 lens and then drop the 5D sensor in. Rangefinder? sure, best focusing system there is. Ah, well the thread was one of wishful thinking ....maybe one day canon will say "hey, lets take a 5D sensor, stick it
on a RangeFinder body with Leica mount, forget about marketing and
please some silly nerds around the world"
--
m.
http://www.pbase.com/m3photo
That's not what I'm looking for. I do not even, not for a minute, expect a compact digicam to come anywhere near the IQ of a 5D, or 1.6x DSLR, for that matter.
A "compact" digicam with a fast fixed-focal lens and an APS-C sized sensor without the frills of video, flip-out LCDs, etc., is not a "compact" digicam -- it will not fit into my pocket, and I don't imagine it being much smaller than the Nikon D40, if at all.
No, what I want is a compact digicam that is essentially the same as the G7, but has a faster lens with less range, less MP for better noise performance (mind you, I do not mean to imply that it will match even a 1.6x sensor in noise performance, just be a lot better than the G7), and a few extra frills such as flip-out LCD, 1024x768x30 fps zoomable video, that still fits in your pocket.
That's a compact digicam.
I just don't see a 1.6x sensor "compact" digicam fitting into your pockets, even with a wide fixed-focal lens. The new Sigma digicam (RD-1?) is not so tiny, and it's fixed-focal lens is f / 4 -- two stops slower than f / 2. Just how big would that puppy be with a 24 (FF equivalent) f / 2 lens?
--
--joe
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/
Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
Stovall
Senior Member
one of the things is it is not an interchangable lens camera. You have the option of to two converters for ultra wide and short telephoto.
--
---
****************************************
'Giving a camera to Diane Arbus is like putting a live grenade in the hands of a child.'
Norman Mailer (b. 1923), U.S. author. Newsweek (New York, 22 Oct. 1984)
--
---
****************************************
'Giving a camera to Diane Arbus is like putting a live grenade in the hands of a child.'
Norman Mailer (b. 1923), U.S. author. Newsweek (New York, 22 Oct. 1984)
Doc Olmo
Well-known member
For a compact you don't have to stay loyal to Canon, Nikon or Leica. No stranded investment in lenses whatsoever. Even with a 6MP sensor (effective 14MP), I think it would give fantastic image quality.
Keyboard shortcuts
- f
- Forum