Sony, When r u going to drop ur ridicolous lens price?

I personally don't think that this analysis is correct. The body
,although 10MP. was not cheap to begin with & the latest prices,
which vary in different parts of the world, are a testament to that
fact. They would have done better to have a lower initial price in
order to launch more quickly into the DSLR market. This would have
given them a larger user base & guarantee the success of their DSLR
system which could then expand with future upgrades.

No one is asking for cut-price high-end lenses but properly priced
lenses. When you compare them with similar offerings from other
manufacturers then they are seen to be over-priced. The fact that
supply is restricted, for whatever reason, does not mean that they
should exploit that situation. Inefficiency should not be rewarded
rather a good service & value for money should reap its rewards.

People have long memories & are not the fools which some folk
depict them as being. The moment people feel that they are being
ripped off they will move away & won't be quick to return. Sony's
reputation has become tarnished of late & the Photographic Division
has the opportunity to put these impressions right - they should
not miss the opportunity.

Keith-C
I fully agree with your story. I wanted to buy a A100 a few months ago but decided to wait a while since I found the price difference with the 400D to much. In the mean time the price dropped quite a bit but also the very high lens prices and their total unavailability caught my attention. (Good) changes are that I will be holding a Canon within 2 weeks and not the Sony. This then will be due to the way they are now presenting their alpha system.

RW
 
I don't know of any real "evidence". The arguments for the better
performance however are "understandable". For sure you do not see a
lot of objections against the better performance of lens IS so that
will probably mean that it is true (especially on longer lenses).
One advantage for sure is that your viewfinder is also stabilised
so you'll see the real effect.

I do not see a single reason why Sony lenses should even be an Euro
more expensive than the Canon/Nikon equivalent (without the IS/VR).

RW
You and I are in agreement. I thought that AS/SSS was a way to
stabilize an image and not a vehicle to raise lens prices.

--
fjbyrne
That is nicely put :) and I fully agree with you.
Somehow I am affraid though that Sony is seeing this a little bit different :(

RW
 
Under pricing the lenses to try and gain ground would kill them.
One they wouldn't make much money, but secondly they would
massively devalue the brand. The most important thing sony needs
to do is show they are a serious brand with high end glass (thus
the ZAs, Gs). You can never go back and raise the prices. You can
how ever drop them without much issue. If sony took your route,
and then on the next round of lenses, or over time raised prices,
people like yourself would go nuts. You would be really mad and be
saying things about vendor lock in and so forth.
I agree that it would be hard to raise prices. I wasn't thinking
of pricing below what they would eventually settle to just not that
much higher. PS3s could have been sold for much more than they
have been. Should Sony have charged as much as they could and drop
the price later? They could if they didn't want to sell a ton of
systems.
Not the same. The PS3 is to the A100 as the games are to the lenses and accessories. Get them info the PS3, even at a loss, and make it up selling the games.
Right now sony set prices, people are buying them. The plan has
worked.

What sony has undercut prices on is the body. The A100 came out
underpriced. But they wanted to grow market. They can't be hurt by
having a cheap body, will just be replaced in time anyways, and
they will have higher end bodies. Sell the body cheap, and then
make the money on the glass. That is a good strategy.
A good strategy unless people start pricing full systems and decide
that Sony would be too expensive in the long term. I realize the
A100 isn't targeted at the same market as the most expensive lenses
that Sony offers. But when the better bodies come out I hope the
lens pricing doesn't hurt their sales.

--
fjbyrne
At this level (A100/D70s/D50/400D), people are not as focused on accessory prices. The compare bodys or kits, make a decision, and start adding just before or at the cash register.

A lot of these people are relying on sales people or product info cards at the display to educate them, as well as reviews which tend to not compare accessory prices.

chad
 
I still have an old Canon 80-200 from the film days. I am looking to upgrade this lens to a 70-200 4L, which now goes for 590 Euro. (I know, I know it is not stabilized and there is the Beercan, but I definitely like the USM ;) )

The tele's show Sony problem real well. Where I can get about 9 Canon telezooms + 12 Canon tele primes from stock tomorrow (All USM by the way), there is only the budget 75-300 from Sony that is available here !!

Of course the pricing of the Sony 70-200 2.8 does not help either with 3000 Euro (!). The Canon one is at the moment 1060 Euro. Although I will probably not buy one any time soon this pricing difference says something about Sony and it does not make me feel any better about joining the Sony system. With a price difference of 200% (!!) I cannot understand that Sony does not see the message they are spreading to potential customers.

To complete my lens wish list: the 17-40 4L USM is very appealing Although here the Tamron 17-50 2.8 is also interesting (which is also listed for the A-mount, but again difficult to get.

Which brings us to the second problem of Sony: although they have listed quite some lenses, where is the stuff ?! I can only get an additonal 18-200 and the 75-300 next to the kit lens. It's not what's on paper that counts but what is actually available in the shops.

The above and the certainty of the possible upgrade path will most probably turn me to the Canon.

RW
i'm curious, which lens price swung your decision?

And, which lenses are you planning to buy over the next year?

thanks
 
Not the same. The PS3 is to the A100 as the games are to the
lenses and accessories. Get them info the PS3, even at a loss, and
make it up selling the games.
Maybe so but lenses, flashes, etc are much more expensive than a typical video game. Honest sales people (are there any :) will start to let people know the true cost of the Sony system. Will photo mags start to do system comparisons? How about consumer magazines? As I said in another post: I thought AS/SSS was for image stabilization and not a way for Sony to raise lens prices.
At this level (A100/D70s/D50/400D), people are not as focused on
accessory prices. The compare bodys or kits, make a decision, and
start adding just before or at the cash register.
You are probably right here for some of the people. I also think many people at this level depend on an "expert" friend to tell them what to get. If these people are anywhere above an entry-level amature they are likely to understand that you need to price a system and not just a camera and kit lens.
A lot of these people are relying on sales people or product info
cards at the display to educate them, as well as reviews which tend
to not compare accessory prices.
True. But again I go back to the honest sales people like you typically find in specialty camera stores. They will typically ask what type of shooting you want to do and give you the pros and cons of each system. They will be fully aware of Sony's higher accessory costs. Maybe that is why it appears Sony is avoiding small camera shops like the plague (at least around here).
--
fjbyrne
 
Then it really just depends on when you need it. All of the lenses Sony listed have shipped in the US and are either available or sold out.

The Canon 70-200mm f2.8 is a very mature product and the shops have had plenty of time to get one into the hands of anyone who wants one. This is not the case with the Sony version. As time goes not, you will see the price of the Sony drop. However, if past history is an indicator, the price will probably settle out around that of the IS, not the non-IS.

chad
 
Not the same. The PS3 is to the A100 as the games are to the
lenses and accessories. Get them info the PS3, even at a loss, and
make it up selling the games.
Maybe so but lenses, flashes, etc are much more expensive than a
typical video game. Honest sales people (are there any :) will
start to let people know the true cost of the Sony system. Will
photo mags start to do system comparisons? How about consumer
magazines? As I said in another post: I thought AS/SSS was for
image stabilization and not a way for Sony to raise lens prices.
Relative cost is irrelevant. So, before buying your last car, did you aks how much an oil change was? Yeah, the data is available but not looked at by too many people.

This is a little nit pickling, but how can Sony raise prices on something they have never sold before? Rebadged or not, Sony has never sold this stuff. Period.

The only rules that Sony needs to follow are those of supply and demand. From everything that I have heard, demand is high. High demand on limited supply equals high prices. The fact that the KM version of the 70-200mm G was not available for 8 months causes demand to build.
At this level (A100/D70s/D50/400D), people are not as focused on
accessory prices. The compare bodys or kits, make a decision, and
start adding just before or at the cash register.
You are probably right here for some of the people. I also think
many people at this level depend on an "expert" friend to tell them
what to get. If these people are anywhere above an entry-level
amature they are likely to understand that you need to price a
system and not just a camera and kit lens.
A lot of these people are relying on sales people or product info
cards at the display to educate them, as well as reviews which tend
to not compare accessory prices.
True. But again I go back to the honest sales people
Oxymoron
like you
typically find in specialty camera stores. They will typically ask
what type of shooting you want to do and give you the pros
. . . of the brand of their perfered camera (Canon or Nikon) that fits your budget
of the other brands.
of each system. They will be fully aware of Sony's higher
accessory costs.
And their increased commissions. I spent three very unsuccessful years in electronics retailing in a specialized high-end shop and saw an amazing amount of lying from the "top" sales people. A well informed consumer was somebody to avaid. This is exactly why I do all my own research.

Selliong camera systems has been happening for 50 years? If comparing "system prices" has not caught on by the bulk of the camera-buying public by now, it probably aint gunna.
Maybe that is why it appears Sony is avoiding
small camera shops like the plague (at least around here).
--
fjbyrne
 
That's a very true thing about this market group that many here miss.

If you are buying an A100, your not buying 70-200 SSMs anytime soon. You probably won't go past the kit.

Unless you are just using it as a temp camera till better comes, or a back up. But still, the target market for the A100 is served by the kit lenses.
 
One of the things that swung me over to the Minota camp when I bought my first DSLR (the 7d), was the fact that I could get some great lenses on ebay at good prices that would act as IS lenses thanks to in-body stabilization...That is clearly no longer the case...

I currently have put a freeze on buying any lenses as I'm waiting to see what happens next with Sony but I am strongly considering jumping ship. IMOP what Sony is charging for the 70-200 is insulting.

We can all go on and on about various economic principals like market segmentation and supply and demand, but based on this thread they are alienating customers including me.

Also before we give Sony too much credit about keeping the prices high and being good business people lets reflect on some of the huge blunders they have made in consumer electronics of late...

--
http://www.pbase.com/wiggims/galleries
 
Not the same. The PS3 is to the A100 as the games are to the
lenses and accessories. Get them info the PS3, even at a loss, and
make it up selling the games.
Maybe so but lenses, flashes, etc are much more expensive than a
typical video game. Honest sales people (are there any :) will
start to let people know the true cost of the Sony system. Will
photo mags start to do system comparisons? How about consumer
magazines? As I said in another post: I thought AS/SSS was for
image stabilization and not a way for Sony to raise lens prices.
Relative cost is irrelevant. So, before buying your last car, did
you aks how much an oil change was? Yeah, the data is available
but not looked at by too many people.
Actually I did check the maintainence costs for the last vehicle I purchased. I also read auto magazines that give cost/mile and repair costs. As the products get closer in performance this type of data becomes more important. Most magazines give a value assesment now. Will it become more detailed? I guess we will see.
This is a little nit pickling, but how can Sony raise prices on
something they have never sold before? Rebadged or not, Sony has
never sold this stuff. Period.
OK great, they haven't "raised" prices. They do have higher prices than very comparable products (i.e. the Minolta lenses they rebadged).
The only rules that Sony needs to follow are those of supply and
demand. From everything that I have heard, demand is high. High
demand on limited supply equals high prices. The fact that the KM
version of the 70-200mm G was not available for 8 months causes
demand to build.
The only rules they have to follow are laws. Sony is free to run their business as they see fit. Is there startegy good for them in the short term? Maybe. Long term? I'm not so sure.
At this level (A100/D70s/D50/400D), people are not as focused on
accessory prices. The compare bodys or kits, make a decision, and
start adding just before or at the cash register.
You are probably right here for some of the people. I also think
many people at this level depend on an "expert" friend to tell them
what to get. If these people are anywhere above an entry-level
amature they are likely to understand that you need to price a
system and not just a camera and kit lens.
A lot of these people are relying on sales people or product info
cards at the display to educate them, as well as reviews which tend
to not compare accessory prices.
True. But again I go back to the honest sales people
Oxymoron
like you
typically find in specialty camera stores. They will typically ask
what type of shooting you want to do and give you the pros
. . . of the brand of their perfered camera (Canon or Nikon) that
fits your budget
This may be true of most stores but I have found some exceptions.
of the other brands.
of each system. They will be fully aware of Sony's higher
accessory costs.
And their increased commissions. I spent three very unsuccessful
years in electronics retailing in a specialized high-end shop and
saw an amazing amount of lying from the "top" sales people. A well
informed consumer was somebody to avaid. This is exactly why I do
all my own research.
Me too but there is a great local camera shop not too far from me. Unfortuanately they don't do Sony.
Selliong camera systems has been happening for 50 years? If
comparing "system prices" has not caught on by the bulk of the
camera-buying public by now, it probably aint gunna.
This is an age where gathering information is much easier than in the past. Before the best you could hope was that you knew someone, there was something in a publication, or the people at the shop were honest. Now you can go to fourms, read on-line reviews, etc.
Maybe that is why it appears Sony is avoiding
small camera shops like the plague (at least around here).
--
fjbyrne
--
fjbyrne
 
If you are comparing lens to lens yes, but if you are comparing
cross brand, then you have to pick the stabilized version, because
Nikon and Canon bodies are not stabilized you would have to
purchase the stabilized lenses to get the same performance as the
SSM on Alpha.
Sorry, the main selling point in the Alpha system is the fact that since it employs a body-based stabilization, you don't have to pay for stabilization additionally in any of the lenses. Now if you have to pay several hundred dollars more for a non-stabilized lens, then where are you gaining ?

The non-stabilized high-end "L" Canon lens 70-200 f/2.8 costs $1100 and the stabilized "L" 70-200 f/2.8 IS costs $1600. The IS lens obviously has gyros and floating elements withint the lens, which accounts for the additional cost. Another advantage is that the responses of the gyros etc are tailored for the 70-200 etc focal lengths, along with other advantages like a stabilized image in the viewfinder (unlike a shaky viewfinder image in a body stabilized system) which helps significantly while spot metering etc.

Also, another twist to this argument is that once you buy a stabilized lens, till the end of eternity, your lenses are stabilized for those focal lengths on any** body. So if you typically operate within a certain range of focal lengths (as everyone does), all you need is a few stabilized lenses and you would not have to worry about stabilization EVER** with any future body you buy. Just an alternative thought.

--
--- Anil ----
Gear: A couple of cameras & tripod/flash
 
The only rules that Sony needs to follow are those of supply and
demand. From everything that I have heard, demand is high. High
demand on limited supply equals high prices. The fact that the KM
version of the 70-200mm G was not available for 8 months causes
demand to build.
There are NO excuses to be had form sony pricing...none at all....

Supply and demand nonsense....it is a lens...not a rare substance..
At this level (A100/D70s/D50/400D), people are not as focused on
accessory prices. The compare bodys or kits, make a decision, and
start adding just before or at the cash register.
I bet you some people are..and I bet many will look at Sony and think hmm nice camera..prices for other stuff sucks...hello Canon...if Sony are serious about this game..they have a whole lot to learn...

--

 
Both of the above Canon "L" lenses come with ring USM (Ultra-sonic motor) for fast** focusing. Also, the USM is included in a large number of Canon lenses...while I believe Sony has only included it in a couple of lenses, including the 70-200.

I own an R1 but based on what I see about their prices, I doubt I will be considering an Alpha camera for my future needs.
 
The non-stabilized high-end "L" Canon lens 70-200 f/2.8 costs $1100
and the stabilized "L" 70-200 f/2.8 IS costs $1600.
There is no doubt the premium Sony lenses are overpriced but not everyone lives in a premium world and can afford $1600 lenses.

Show me the consumer grade Canon 70-300 IS zoom that costs £170? There isn't one.
The IS lens
obviously has gyros and floating elements withint the lens, which
accounts for the additional cost. Another advantage is that the
responses of the gyros etc are tailored for the 70-200 etc focal
lengths, along with other advantages like a stabilized image in the
viewfinder (unlike a shaky viewfinder image in a body stabilized
system) which helps significantly while spot metering etc.
The merits of each system are as they are but in-body IS apparently knows about the focal length (certainly on Pentax, not sure aout Sony) so is matched. You what you say the above on IS lenses but only on those lenses. You don't get it on a canon 10-22 and it is surprisingly useful at wide angle for interior shots of numerous sorts in low light. I have some shots taken with a Minolta A1 at very slow shutter speeds in museums at wide angle for example.
Also, another twist to this argument is that once you buy a
stabilized lens, till the end of eternity, your lenses are
stabilized for those focal lengths on any** body. So if you
typically operate within a certain range of focal lengths (as
everyone does), all you need is a few stabilized lenses and you
would not have to worry about stabilization EVER** with any
future body you buy. Just an alternative thought.
And another is when the next generation of in-body IS comes out all you have to do is buy one body to get better IS with all your lenses whereas new improved IS lenses mean either new lenses or sticking with the old generation. How many versions of VR and IS are Canon and Nikon on now with some lens variants? At least three I think.

Dave
 
Both of the above Canon "L" lenses come with ring USM (Ultra-sonic
motor) for fast** focusing. Also, the USM is included in a
large number of Canon lenses...while I believe Sony has only
included it in a couple of lenses, including the 70-200.
A large number? Well I count two IS lenses covering wide-angle to short telephoto in the Canon range and none that cover anything wider. The 17-55 "L" and the 17-85 consumer grade lens.

To get roughly the same as the Sony twin lens kit you need to add the 70-300 IS to the 17-85 IS and with a 400D body the price is close to double!

For Nikon you have the infamous 18-200 that just isn't readily available and add that to a Nikon D80 and you are talking £370 more than the A100 equivalent outfit. Other than that they have no IS enabled lens until you are up to telephoto zooms.

I am sure they both have several telephoto zooms with IS but then that is because they have to if they want stabilisation.

Dave
 
Both of the above Canon "L" lenses come with ring USM (Ultra-sonic
motor) for fast** focusing. Also, the USM is included in a
large number of Canon lenses...while I believe Sony has only
included it in a couple of lenses, including the 70-200.
A large number? Well I count two IS lenses covering wide-angle to
short telephoto in the Canon range and none that cover anything
wider. The 17-55 "L" and the 17-85 consumer grade lens.
Yes, a large number of Canon lenses have USM , covering the spectrum from ultra-wide angle 10mm to 1200mm.

USM** is not Image Stabilization. Sony calls it SSM** and is only available in a couple of Sony/Minolta lenses.

--
--- Anil ----
Gear: A couple of cameras & tripod/flash
 
Supply and demand nonsense....it is a lens...not a rare substance..
Ha Ha. The Law of Supply and Demand applies to all products. Ask
a farmer how it applies to corn. Corn is not a rare substance
either.

This is Econ 101 stuff.
I did economics thanks very much...and I have my own business....

I know this...SONY charges what it thinks it can get away with..based on very poor experience in the SLR field..this isnt Tv's..or hi fi's...different game.

Most people will know that more expensive lenses are in general that due to more optical glass being used..and higher quality of manufacturing...

These are the same lenses minolta made...THE SAME....what has changed? nothing....

Prices went up across the entire range...everything....

There is no law of supply and demand for lenses...clearly Sony has not got a clue how to conduct business in the camera world...and for that..people will leave them on the shelf..

Others can be suckers all they want..for the rest of us we find comfort in TAMRON! lol
--

 

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