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What is reason for image quality = 7,5?

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then I don't understand 7,5. I think
PAvel_cze said:
that right mark is same for D80 at least.
Pavel (Czech Republic)
Click to expand...
Well, let's be honest, does anybody expect from any "official" guys to admit that there's a better camera than C/N in the market?

I wonder why it took Phil 6 months to say in the review that K100D is better than D50. You get the point?
 
And how many shoot jpeg and print over A3 without applying a little USM...
I certainly don't (though I do shoot JPEG a lot)

This 'issue' is so over hyped its not funny..

------------
Joel - K10D/DS/SFX
http://www.pbase.com/joele
 
Morven said:
It is clear from the review that in-camera JPEGs are not as
sharpened as competing cameras on their default settings, and from
what Phil says he could not find a way to achieve the sharpening he
was looking for with in-camera adjustments.
Click to expand...
In that he was mistaken. The way you get more sharpened pictures is by shooting in "bright" mode as he did previously using the K100D, and he was well pleased by the results with that camera.
Morven said:
It may indeed be the case that Pentax intended the images to look
the way they do; people on this forum have stated good reasons to
believe this is the case. If so, I think it was a mistake to not
have the option to change that in-camera, for people who don't like
that look and would prefer a more sharpened image. I suspect that
Phil's image quality score would have been higher if that were the
case.
Click to expand...
It is there! The setting you ask for is in the camera, it's in the main menu and takes all of five seconds to change. Phil did not use "bright" mode in the test photos against other cameras because it's not the K10D's default setting. His review procedure calls for comparing cameras based on their default settings.

He did shoot some comparisons between "bright" and "natural" and noted in passing that the bright pictures appeared more sharpened. Yet later when he got to the Conclusion he forgot all about that.

I have carefully compared those test photos, and I found that "bright" pictures from the K10D appear to be processed identically to the K100D pictures that Phil described as "crisp and detailed". I also found that "natural" pictures from the K100D had the same smooth-and-soft look as "natural" pictures from the K10D. They appear to be processing with the same software.

The review is flawed because it turned a useful menu option into something to complain about, and a "just" reduced rating.

I've already seen posts from people who scrapped plans to buy a K10D. I've seen a post from one person who was "very frightened" (his words) by Phil's comments about the JPEG softness. It's frustrating.
 
steelski said:
Listen BOYO, its in the RAW image... which is on the same day. and
funny how they all look the same from ACR raw.. dust wise that is.
Click to expand...
Why do you think they were all on the same day? The whole point of using a controlled studio setup is so that you can compare shots made at different times. You do realize the date/time is in the Exif data don't you? Only the 400D/D80 were shot the same day:

R1: Date Time Original = 2005-10-31 16:32:00
D200: Date Time Original = 2006-02-16 11:44:36
30D: Date Time Original = 2006-03-06 16:45:08
A100: Date Time Original = 2006-07-03 15:06:57
400D: Date Time Original = 2006-09-18 15:39:07
D80: Date Time Original = 2006-09-18 15:02:27
K10D: Date Time Original = 2006-12-07 11:37:17
steelski said:
Gee I couldent figure this out.. silly me. Pixel peeping is not
really a hobby of mine. I only do it to please you.
Click to expand...
Then why did you bother to post about the resolution of the dust particles?
steelski said:
No, but it is programed to not look plastic like the Canon toys you
call rebbles. The moire is a sidefect of trying to resolve as much
detail of the AA filter
Click to expand...
That's fine except that your assertion of superior resolution is not shown in the raw images. Here is another example: on the camera, look at the focusing scale against the body. Is there any gap between the '2' and the ',' in the 2.5 at the 12 oclock position. It's clear on the R1 and 400d. Almost resolved on the D80. But not at all on the K10D.
steelski said:
Look again if you cant see the depth in the walpaper texture
Really. I could have swarn I could see differances. But anyway... I
talk of Jpeg. What is this Mythical RAW you speak of.
Click to expand...
That is my error: for some reason I thought you were referring to raw images. It doesn't change the comments about the amount of dust vs. the date (as the dates are the same as the raw.) In that case, Phil spoke about the differences in this scene where he felt the K10D did not perform as well as the competition. Those differences exist - you and he just differ on what differences mean what for total image quality.

--
Erik
 
popphoto does AF speed tests. The K10D test went up last week. Faster than most cameras (!) in bright light, but fairly slow in low light.

Frank
 
Eric_H said:
There's nothing wrong with the reviews... if you ignore the last
part of the last page with the recommendation. But that would
require people to read the whole review and come to their own
conclusions, which is apparently much too difficult for some.
Click to expand...
For a while, Phil stopped posting individual component scores. People had less to complain about. Now that they're back, forum traffic probably is way up. ;-)
 
PAvel_cze said:
But I am confident that DSLRs users mainly use RAW. my
ratio is maybe 90:10 for RAW. then I don't understand 7,5. I think
that right mark is same for D80 at least.
Click to expand...
I have not yet purchased a dSLR, but even though all of my digital cameras have always had raw capability, I haven't used it because it slows me down: the shooting is slower, and the processing is slower. Of course, I'm not a Pro, and we're not talking about Pro cameras. But I suspect I would do a lot of JPEG shooting with any dSLR I buy. (Great to have the RAW button handy if I do get this model.)

The difference between between Image Quality of 7.5 (K10D) and 8.0 (K100D, A100, D80) and 8.5 (Rebel XTi) does not seem very large. They are merely 0.5 differences on a scale of 10.0. I don't think that's unfair. Conversely, since images seldom are viewed on screen at full resolution by end consumers -- they would more typically view downsampled JPEGs on screen or prints at higher DPIs -- it should not be the sole or even the most important criterion in choosing this type of camera.
 
Erik37 said:
Leo "Zoom" said:
Finally - I'd like to suggest to include some AF speed,
Click to expand...
Yes I agree, but this is lens dependent so how to test
in a fair way?
Click to expand...
Can be tested with a recommended kit lens and a 50/1.4 which is a standard for most tests. Just speed in good light and in low light. It could be made lets say 10 attempts to focus in each lens/focal length/light combination and the result could be shown as a graph.
Erik37 said:
Erik37 said:
SR effectiveness tests
Click to expand...
There was a SR effectiveness test? (Even if some of us disagree
about shooting so close.)
Click to expand...
Yep, I missed that. Done in a right direction, but still can be improved.
Erik37 said:
Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden
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--



http://www.z00m.us
 
I'd say that is not a test, just a personal impressions of some journalist. I don't try these results, because they a completely opposite to my own observations. Actually my experience is with DS, but both cameras have the same AF system. Just some firmware and motor speed tweaks were made. So my experience shows that Pentax is hunting and thinking a lot in the low light, when Nik*n D70 with 18-70 lens in the same situation grabs focus immediately. IMO sensors of Pentax Safox VIII aren't sensitive enough or give too much noise in low light to interpret focusing information right.

--



http://www.z00m.us
 
Erik Magnuson said:
steelski said:
Listen BOYO, its in the RAW image... which is on the same day. and
funny how they all look the same from ACR raw.. dust wise that is.
Click to expand...
Why do you think they were all on the same day? The whole point of
using a controlled studio setup is so that you can compare shots
made at different times. You do realize the date/time is in the
Exif data don't you? Only the 400D/D80 were shot the same day:

R1: Date Time Original = 2005-10-31 16:32:00
D200: Date Time Original = 2006-02-16 11:44:36
30D: Date Time Original = 2006-03-06 16:45:08
A100: Date Time Original = 2006-07-03 15:06:57
400D: Date Time Original = 2006-09-18 15:39:07
D80: Date Time Original = 2006-09-18 15:02:27
K10D: Date Time Original = 2006-12-07 11:37:17
Click to expand...
Please read what I say. The DUST is washed out on the Jpeg and its there in the RAW which would have been shot on the same Day. not for the K10D and Canon. For the Canon and the Canon... The Dust looks very similar between cameras in Raw but is missing in Jpeg. My conclusion is that the dust is washed out on the same day results of the cameras.
 
Jerry, good to see you here.

I am, of course, in the same boat. So please keep your debts, I don't need any more!!

I recently had to take out an insurance rider just to cover my potographic equipment!!

The K10D intrigues me. Features close to the D200 (not all, but remarkably robust) for the price of much-less capable and more poorly-built cameras. And I'm an old Pentax fan from way back (the SLR I gave away when I went digital almost a decade ago was a Pentax with some very nice Pentax and Asahi glass).

But I was a bit taken aback by Phil's tests.
As long as you're shooting RAW, the K10D still looks like a great camera.

I do think some Pentax fans do need to up their Prozac dose! :-)
tocarver said:
Alan, so nice to see your post here, I'm, more or less, avoiding
the whole debate, not enough expierence to know I'm not suppose to
be happy. (+:
BTW, you where so right about the cost of jumping into a DSLR
versus our H-series, but for someone who has definitly been bitten
by the whole camera/lens disease, I'm enjoying the learning curve
(+: and there wasn't anything left to buy for the H1 or H5 lol.
Be well my mentor, I own my debts, in part, to you lol
--
Jerry
http://www.pbase.com/tocarver
Equipment, to date, (+: In profile
Click to expand...
--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of The White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper
 
... that no one seems to want to acknowledge.

1) The D200 is a professional (or semi-professional) camera that was intentionally left as neutral as possible to accomodate pro shooters.

2) However, it has huge in-camera customization options, including a general sharpness setting with which you can instantaneously compensate for the strong A-A filter. Overall sharpening includes edge sharpening, not just texture-sharpening. Just up the sharpening a bit and your .jpgs come out tack-sharp. Phil's point is that, according to his tests, that's not possible with the K10D.

And the solution offered here, that you use the "bright" setting is not a solution - it changes the entire tone curve, not just the sharpening.

Phil obviously tried to up-sharpen the images using camera settings, since he remarked in the review that it didn't work.

In the D200 review, he did the same, and remarked that the result was exemplary.

That's an obvious difference to Phil as he explicitly referenced both in his respective reviews.

3) I don't much like the D200 .jpgs and never shoot in .jpg (due to NR). But I acknowledge that you can customize them any way you want in the D200 (if you wanted to) with four available banks of custom settings.

Plus, the D200 has uploadable custom curves, so your control over in-camera processing is theoretically infinite - without post-processing. Want Velvia? Upload a curve. Want "film-like"? Upload a curve. Want sharp, contrasty "digital"? Upload a curve. The point is that the user has ultimate control.

That's pretty powerful stuff.

4) I think the K10D is a brilliant camera for the money. I was incredibly impressed with the specs, the build, etc. I'd love to see some RAW IQ tests so I could determine if it's a viable backup body for me.

--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of The White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper
 
Morven said:
I find that often reviewers rate something based on how well it met
expectations, and I think I see something of that in the K10D
review. Phil expected great things of this camera, and it didn't
quite meet his expectations. Thus, the low image quality marks.
However, Phil considered the camera good enough to meet his 'Highly
Recommended' rating even so.
Click to expand...
You're right.

In Simon's review of the7.2 mp DSC-H5, he lowered the I/Q rating only because it was similar to the I/Q of the DSC-H2 (6 mp). I guess he expected better... so he downgraded the I/Q even though the quality is virtually identical between the two cameras.

H2: I/Q 8.5
H5: I/Q 8.0

Simon even admitted that the I/Q was nearly identical, but he downgraded it based on price (an additional $100) and expectations.

It's really subjective, and it's their scale, their rules, their reviews and their sites.

I must say though, that the Sony folks discussed the ratings, but no one suggested that Phil and Simon be linched. :-)

I find the reaction on this forum stunning.

--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of The White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper
 
Leo "Zoom" said:
I'd say that is not a test, just a personal impressions of some
journalist. I don't try these results, because they a completely
opposite to my own observations. Actually my experience is with DS,
but both cameras have the same AF system. Just some firmware and
motor speed tweaks were made. So my experience shows that Pentax is
hunting and thinking a lot in the low light, when Nik*n D70 with
18-70 lens in the same situation grabs focus immediately. IMO
sensors of Pentax Safox VIII aren't sensitive enough or give too
much noise in low light to interpret focusing information right.
Click to expand...
The K10D Safox VIII is not identical to the Safox VIII used on the *istDS (mechanical parts included). I would say (after a very brief testing session) it's much faster (the *istDS is slow) and works better in low light.

Alex Sarbu
 
AAK said:
Pavel,

Phil made two points. I don't know if they're valid or not, but
it's certainly not what's being quoted here:

1) The lack of edge-sharpness was not the sole problem. It was the
fact that you cannot set the camera to increase edge sharpness.

The best DSLRs provide many paths to customize your images. Pentax
apparently didn't consider one for the edge-sharpness.

Bottom line: if you like "film-like" sharpness, that's great. This
camera will be perfect for you. If you don't, and you like really
sharp edges, you'll have to shoot RAW and sharpen it yourself.

His point was that Pentax should have allowed you to choose your
option in-camera, not in post-processing.

2) The bigger problem (and the more likely reason for the
relatively low image quality rating) is that the dynamic range of
the K10D appears to be noticeably narrower than competing cameras.
Click to expand...
Don't forget, this only applies to jpeg's not RAW. The K10D was over 10 stops in RAW and a further 1 stop maybe available. This is better than most cameras in RAW.
AAK said:
To many, this is a downright crucial issue. Especially landscape
photographers, or anyone else who shoots in high-contrast locations.
AAK said:
I have to agree with Phil photos aren't so sharp as competition in
JPEG. As we can see RAW quality is slightly better than D80(I think
that reason is AA filter, probably for K10D will be bigger problem
MOIRE).
Click to expand...
Most DSLRs use a physical anti-aliasing (low-pass filter) on the
lens-side of the sensor. That being the case, any impact the A-A
filter has would be apparent on both .jpg and RAW, since the A-A
filter works on the LIGHT, not the image.

Unless the K10D uses software anti-aliasing, which I find very hard
to believe, the filter is not the cause. BTW, the D80 (and I don't
own or intend to own one) has a strong A-A filter.

--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of The White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/h1whitepaper
Click to expand...
--
Lance B

http://www.pbase.com/lance_b
GMT +10hours

 
ljv said:
I am really sorry if you think i stole your banner because it's not
my intention to do that, i thought it was a general banner from the
internet, i liked it and made it mine. If you want it i remove it,
Click to expand...
BTW, there is no such thing as "a general banner from the internet"

http://www.whatiscopyright.org
ljv said:
It sure is a nice banner.........

ljv
36anne63 said:
ljv said:
ljv
Click to expand...
Glad you like my banner.... but asking before taking it from my
website would have been nice.

you didn´t even bother to change the jpg name.



--

Click to expand...
--
Multo contento with my D's!!!!!! But now waiting on the K 10

D!!!!!!!!!!!!

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--
http://www.apt131.com

'This is easy for us Chinese...just look at the pictures, ignore
his comments in English...'
 
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