What will Vista give me?

Robert Barnett said:

Sorry, but Apple is every bit the monopoly that Microsoft is. They
control the hardware, they control the software. They have even
finally gotten to the point that some companies don't even bother
to put out Mac versions of some of their programs.

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I agree on this...in fact you have even less choice...Intel only..and you cannot build your own...

Apple "were" good. Least when they were power pc..."think differently" meant something...now its a pc with a different (though nice) OS..and you pay for it in style.

Robert Barnett said:

The iPod while a very nice MP3 player is just as monopolistic as
their computers. So I don't see trading one monopoly for another
even if the new one is a smaller one and a monopoly in a different
area.

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I cannot tell you how many duff Ipods I have seen...enough to tell me I dont want one! Apple has turned into a fashion icon...a trendy cool thing to have...

I used to watch them in the fancy west end wine bars of London...when I was a lowly Marketing Manager for a small IT company....course not able to mix it with the power lawyers..and blue chip execs! lol

Most had no interest in how apple or even if it was better for them...just that it looked kinda "cool" yuppie factor I called it! lol

Robert Barnett said:

What we need is a real option that isn't Microsoft and is Apple.
And, no that is not Linux. Linux will never be a mass consumer
operating system. It is a server OS and a geek OS, nothing more
nothing less.

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Maybe a tad cruel on Linux..but I will say that sure the geek heads have got too into messing about with it...rather than trying to deliver the slap the cd in and not worry about "will this or that work"...which linux so badly needs...I has got somewhat better. At present I dont feel it is there yet..

But what other options are there? It is almost suicide to go up against MS from a commercial point of view with regards an OS.

I often wonder why apple dont release their OS for all pc users..but of course that would kill their hardware sales. But looking at the trends...take IBM...probably the most influential company in computers for a long time. WHen they sell off their hardware division...you know it is for a reason.

There isnt a lot to be made in making pc's...unless you turn them out in huge numbers. And small systems builder will tell you they dont get much cash from it...upgrades and repairs are where the money is....

Robert Barnett said:

What we need is a small, fast, secure, low bug, stunning to look at
OS that companies like Adobe, Corel, etc. are dieing to develop
for. At this time I don't see this happening any time during the
next 50 years. Microsoft has too many consumers and too many
computer related companies by the b@lls and that grip is only
getting tighter (look at Vista and the copy protection).

Robert

Click to expand...

I hope it happens..but with MS utterly dominating the market..people are going to have to not buy their products! VIsta will sell big..as it looks good.

I think MS have reached their peak and now it is downhill...I do my bit...I put open office on every pc I sell...why not? People like it and it costs nothing..small steps...lead to bigger ones..

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No I don't think today that it would be suicide to go up against Microsoft provided you could manage a couple of "small" things...

1) You have an OS that is small, fast, feature rich (you wouldn't want to loose anything you already have, you would want more), secure and stable at about half the price of Windows or Mac.

2) You could get mainstream companies like Adobe, Corel, Sun, Macromedia, (now Adobe) and the other main stream companies in line to release their software for it.

If you could pull of these two things I think with the way people feel about Windows and Microsoft it would be a slaughter of Microsoft. Either that or Microsoft would then be forced to do better.

The problem so far has not been the OS, Linux may be all well and good but without the mainstream software for it, it is DOA except for servers and geeks. Having low end free programs that are similar is never going to work except for the geeks. Consumers and businesses and schools are never going to rely on the unknown. When they need graphics software they want Adobe and to a much lesser degree Corel. They need software that is proven and can be trusted. Linux can't offer that and if it can't by now it never will.

Corel proved that Linux can't. Corel almost bankrupted themselves developing for Linux. Had they not wised up when they did, Corel would be dead now.

But, I do believe that Microsoft could be taken out. It is very unlikely, getting those two things lined up I fear is near to impossible. Just like getting Apple to allow clones or opening iTunes to other players.

BTW currently the only company that could possible pull of the killing of Microsoft is Apple. If they came out with a feature for feature Mac OS for the PC, they could possibly take Microsoft out or at least cause some major damage. If I could get the Mac OS on my PC and be able to run all of the Mac software I would drop Windows so fast it would cause whiplash in Redmond. Unfortunately I don't think Apple has the nads for it.

Robert

Robert Barnett said:

No I don't think today that it would be suicide to go up against
Microsoft provided you could manage a couple of "small" things...

1) You have an OS that is small, fast, feature rich (you wouldn't
want to loose anything you already have, you would want more),
secure and stable at about half the price of Windows or Mac.

Click to expand...

Of course I am up for that..as are most I would think.

Robert Barnett said:

2) You could get mainstream companies like Adobe, Corel, Sun,
Macromedia, (now Adobe) and the other main stream companies in line
to release their software for it.

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This is the hard part...if there isnt enough demand..companies wont produce software for it....no software...no demand for the OS. MS being so dominant isnt healty IMO..but I just cannot see where this new OS would come from...we need it...all of us...as it is only in our interests to have more competition.

Robert Barnett said:

If you could pull of these two things I think with the way people
feel about Windows and Microsoft it would be a slaughter of
Microsoft. Either that or Microsoft would then be forced to do
better.

Click to expand...

Well MS get a lot of stick...sometimes it is justified..other times it isnt. In fairness to MS a lot of OS problems are poor drivers or buggy software..not always the OS itself at fault..but of course their security record was pretty poor. But hey I didnt moan when blaster took out a ton of pc's....I had a busy few weeks of it! lol

I think what really bothers is the vista price hike..over XP..that rattles OEM builders cages...not popular. Margins are small enough as is..

Robert Barnett said:

The problem so far has not been the OS, Linux may be all well and
good but without the mainstream software for it, it is DOA except
for servers and geeks. Having low end free programs that are
similar is never going to work except for the geeks. Consumers and
businesses and schools are never going to rely on the unknown. When
they need graphics software they want Adobe and to a much lesser
degree Corel. They need software that is proven and can be trusted.
Linux can't offer that and if it can't by now it never will.

Click to expand...

Well I agree you need mainstream support from big companies..even if most users dont always have to have their products...I will note adobe..a very pro company with serious commercial products..but you can live without any adobe software..well almost...flash..is about it..but that isnt essential.

I think the hardware factor is a problem for linux...as well as software..not that most hardware has a problem..it doesnt. You could argue some distros find more HW than XP with an install...problems arise with printers etc...lack of drivers..and this is an issue coupled with software.

Saying that open source used to be pants..but I see some great stuff about now. Blender is a fine small, lean program that is very powerful..I have seen some amazing results off of that...open office is good also...

Gimp isnt my cup of tea..I think for photo work it is a bit weak...so not all open source is bad....

Robert Barnett said:

Corel proved that Linux can't. Corel almost bankrupted themselves
developing for Linux. Had they not wised up when they did, Corel
would be dead now.

Click to expand...

Maybe..

Robert Barnett said:

But, I do believe that Microsoft could be taken out. It is very
unlikely, getting those two things lined up I fear is near to
impossible. Just like getting Apple to allow clones or opening
iTunes to other players.

Click to expand...

Very hard to do.

Robert Barnett said:

BTW currently the only company that could possible pull of the
killing of Microsoft is Apple. If they came out with a feature for
feature Mac OS for the PC, they could possibly take Microsoft out
or at least cause some major damage. If I could get the Mac OS on
my PC and be able to run all of the Mac software I would drop
Windows so fast it would cause whiplash in Redmond. Unfortunately I
don't think Apple has the nads for it.

Robert

Click to expand...

I really dont think Apple will go with that...I wish they would..many people do. I like OSX...I just do not see apple lasting another 10 years charging a premium for their pc's. They wont give up..though I think OSX would be a great seller...

Linux has taken too long to get decent..and it isnt done yet...what is needed is better support all round..software and hardware..

I really see nothing else to challenge MS bar linux in some shape or another...sadly...
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--
Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com

But in the OS world Apple is hardly a monopoly. More like an endangered species.
--
Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com

The answer is to minimize the importance of the DOS . That is why MS is frightened of Google.
--
Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com

I agree I don't see a MS OS rival coming from any where. As I said I don't think Apple has the nads for it. As for Corel if you followed them at the time they nearly bought the farm. Had the venture capitalist not bought them they were getting ready to file bankruptcy. With the money they were loosing because of Linux if they had survived they would have been a very lame duck.

Companies remember things like that and that is part of the reason you don't see a flood of programs coming out for Linux. No one wants to repeat Corel's mistake. Adobe has come out with a few things to test the water but I see no indication that they are going to develope anything major like Photoshop or InDesign or Dreamweaver or anything else.

I think Microsoft has brought a lot of the problems on themselves. While the say they have gotten rid of DOS in XP, they couldn't have and kept some of the very old programs working. It has taken them far too long to move forward. DOS should have been 100% gone with Windows 95. Vista should have had the file system. Microsoft keeps patching the old cr@p instead of making leaps. They are too concered with backwards compatibility with software, hardware and drivers. This is a mistake.

Sure not everyone can afford to upgrade. But, there is nothing stopping these people from using what they have. If it doesn't do what they need then they upgrade. Why should everyone else be hobbled because of a few people that don't want to move away from Windows 95 or Windows NT or even Windows 2000. Why should the entire world come to a stop for a few and that is what Microsoft is doing.

Intel is the same way. Nearly 30 years after the first PC rolled off the line from IBM we still have DMA's, IRQs, etc. We are still using motherboard and CPU technology from then. Sure, it has been patched up and a new coat of paint put on it. But, it isn't radically new technology. Computers, CPUs, memory, hard drives, etc. should be way more advanced than what they are by now. But, they aren't because no one wants to make what is already out their completely invalid. Companies are terrified of what would happen if they truly advanced and that meant a completely new computer, with new OS and new software as nothing from the old one would work. The industry doesn't have the nads for that either.

So we get buggy, un-secure baby steps that is marketed like it is something spectacular when it is just souped up left overs. This includes Vista which once again Microsoft lobotomized.

Robert

We should all be frighted of Google. Have you notice how they develop things? The put it out in beta and 5 years later it is still in beta. Just look at Picasa. It could be a killer application, but not with the way Google is doing. Picasa 2.5 and now 2.6 has been in beta well over 6 months now and it is going to be in beta 6 months from now and probably a year from now.

No I think Google is one of the computer industries biggest jokes. People think they are the cats meow when they are really the slimy hair ball. I wouldn't trust Google any more than I would trust Microsoft. In fact I would trust Google less because everyone thinks they are gods gift.

Robert

Just because they don't have 90% of the market doesn't mean they can't be a monopoly. For Mac computers, the Mac OS, etc. they are every bit as much a monopoly as Microsoft. They just aren't as good at it.

Robert

I garee somewhat, Picassa started out half assed and has not porgressed.

But other things are more impressive. Take a look at Google's new front pages, esp the plug ins. It is an era beyond anything else. Also, Google's spreadsheet and doc tools, while still primitive, do work with email AND allow sharing of documents with NO need for access to MS Live , etc.

Like you, I really wish MS had competition, but I am not dure the OS will be all that important in the future. Someone with the $$ to take on the MS marketing dragon, could undermine Office by lowering the price and making it a web accessory. Google, for example could decide to buy WordPerfect, modify it so it works easily with the Google desktop, ans then GIVE it away. Same for Lotus 123 and a Powerpoint replacement.

MS' weakness is that it is now addicted to high prices for its OS AND for Office. Google has both the cash and the platform to take them on. mS would be in a very hard place if this happened because lowering theirprices would gut MS ... just as MS gutted the Office market bu offering its suite at low prices.

Are there other potential competitors ...

Apple ... note that Google and Apple now share board members.
Yahoo! AOL ... They need some effective basis to compete with Google.
free apps, TIED to their portal, could do it.

--
Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com

The problem with making office applications web based is a move to make things cost more. Cost per use, I think it has been mentioned that they even want to charge you by the minute. So where it costs nothing now to get it's foot in the door but in the future it could cost you a lot more. This depends on how much you use said application though.

I would much sooner have a core suit of tools that I purchase and use them for the 3-4 years life of my machine and then upgrade to the newer versions when I get a new machine.

I do feel that the OS is overpriced. It should have one version which you can have everything or very little dependant on installtion configuration and it should be less than $100 per license. Get rid of all the restrictive versions because it has/hasn't windows media player etc. They haven't told this to apple with their dominant ipod/itunes monopoly so how can they with windows.

I don't mind paying for things if they are a reasonable price. I do think though that MS has done quite a lot for bringing prices down on things over the years and a magazine here in the UK did a feature on it a few months back. If you look at office applications eg word processor, spreasheet and database before MS came out with office in the early 90's there was a lot of competition from different apps but each of the main players were over £500 here in the uk, office came out and straight away you got all the core apps for same price as one app. This was the result of competition, today office is cheaper still. It put a number of companies out of business and for quite a number of years didn't really have any strong competition and so what was a small fish is now the big fish. I also think that open office or star office variant has pulled the price down further and may carry of bringing it down, which is good, but Corel and IBM/Lotus need to give a good push with their ailing suites to put a good amount of choice in the market.

I do think though that adobe deserves some mention here as they seem to be the most costly of all in terms of general software apps. Photoshop here in the uk is dearer than the whole of ms office 2007 by over 25%. One app 25% dearer than about 10 apps in office (some are little more than applets granted), that cannot be right. You can get office pro 2007 and vista business for less than photoshop.

Robert Barnett said:

We should all be frighted of Google. Have you notice how they
develop things? The put it out in beta and 5 years later it is
still in beta. Just look at Picasa. It could be a killer
application, but not with the way Google is doing. Picasa 2.5 and
now 2.6 has been in beta well over 6 months now and it is going to
be in beta 6 months from now and probably a year from now.

No I think Google is one of the computer industries biggest jokes.
People think they are the cats meow when they are really the slimy
hair ball. I wouldn't trust Google any more than I would trust
Microsoft. In fact I would trust Google less because everyone
thinks they are gods gift.

Robert

Click to expand...

I dont have a lot of time for google...about the only thing that I like is Marissa Mayer in a suit! lol.......!!!!!!!
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Unfortunately, since it seems to take Google so long to get things out of beta, to do vast improvements and to generally offer feature rich software I don't think they could pull off and OS and I really don't think people would trust them any more than Microsoft.

Lets not forget 15 years ago Microsoft was a lot like Google. Now look at them. I see this happening with Google and it is happening now. With their stock prices and their general attitude and the way they work they are becoming more like Microsoft in the arrogance and their inflated notions of self worth.

But then I guess any company with any kind of success is prone to do this.

Robert

I don't think the push to have software in the web is for the benefit of anyone other than the company that made it. Microsoft would love to have Office on the net instead of on your computer. Why? Because it makes 1000 times harder to pirate it. It gives them almost total control over what you can do with it and when.

Microsoft copy protection in Vista shows that they only thing they care about is making a buck. That means at least to me that anything they do has to be looked at as to how it benefits Microsoft and how it makes the more money or how it gives them more control over the customer.

Robert

Robert Barnett said:

Unfortunately, since it seems to take Google so long to get things
out of beta, to do vast improvements and to generally offer feature
rich software I don't think they could pull off and OS and I really
don't think people would trust them any more than Microsoft.

Lets not forget 15 years ago Microsoft was a lot like Google. Now
look at them. I see this happening with Google and it is happening
now. With their stock prices and their general attitude and the way
they work they are becoming more like Microsoft in the arrogance
and their inflated notions of self worth.

But then I guess any company with any kind of success is prone to
do this.

Robert

Click to expand...

Well I know a few people at Microsoft..and some serious talent is present there. The problem is they have in fact got too big for their own good....innovation is dampened...as there are so many channels to go through...

Ms is an overweight lumbering giant with talent...but seriously unfit...

Bigger isnt always better...
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--I've come to the Concluseion (i did many moons ago) that Most of you are DAFT n Will Believe Anything Microsoft TELLS YOU....Go's to Show you got more Cash than Sence..Brain is full of NONSENCE....Microsoft Loves You...My woman has bought a Great pair of Shoes..Don't make her Sexier n Don't make her Better..She's already that...Same goes for my PC with XP Pro.....No Wonder Bill Gates is a Multi BillionAir with peeps like you.....GOD I feel better now. Not often I rant! GULLIBLE you Be Boy!
MrScary (DennisR)
Swansea, Wales. UK

http://www.pbase.com/dennisr
http://community.webshots.com/user/mrscarecrow
http://digiden.photoshare.co.nz

Web based does NOT mean charge by minute, nor does ity mean the app works over the web. It does mean the app works synergistically with a web based component and the app is maintained and update by the web .. as Windows is now!

An app can be used to increase face time and sell products .. as is the case for most of Google. Or one might pay a subscription. Remember that a large part of what yu pay for with MS today is overhead .. distribution, retailers, etc. All this goes away witrh web based apps.

Also unlike MS's dumb model for the various flavors on the WinOS, a web based approach can be made infinitely variable. Thus I might pay for an annual subscription to services associated with my use of a word processor. In my case this might include access to tools for reference management that I now buy from Thompson Scientific but would make great sense to buy from Google. I can also imagine paying for an online file sharing service.

I could not agree more about Pshop. These guys are as arrogant as they can be. The SW is wonderful but the help system is awful and the interface reminds me of the structure of Soviet Democracy.
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Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com

I agree.
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Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com

Sorry, while I agree with you completely that Apple treats is closed market horribly (a big reaosn I don;t own a mac), and if they were a monoloy they would be unbearable, they are obviously not a monopoly as defeined in English,
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Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com

Well, some people see features in Vista that they like to have.

And the majority of people here that are pro Vista aren't going to buy Vista right away. Most of them will just get it with a new computer.

By insulting people you just make yourself look immature.