Out of Gamut

andybuk99

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I have shot 20 images for a client with my digital back and have noticed that in photoshop that the reds appear out of gamut. The question is that as I have not been asked to convert them to cmyk or been supplied with their printer profile am I right in thinking that their designer is responsible for all conversions?
 
cheers for that, just what i thought. they had some flower shots printed that i had shot and all the reds blocked in. i tried explaining that it was the printers responsibility but the printers where blaming me and eventually i lost the client.

does anyone know if there is a pdf or website that explains that sort of situation so i can print of and show the client in question.
 
I once used profiles supplied to me by the clients printer. Prints turned out too dark, printer blamed me for not checking the dot values, even though they gave me the profiles that I used.

Sometimes you lose no matter what you do =/
--
Anders

Some of my pictures can be seen at;
http://teamexcalibur.se/US/usindex.html

event photography and photo journalism
 
so if i start converting through software like that, there is obviously extra charges. what fee do you charge peter?
--
if it wasnt for clients i would be a poor man, but happy!
 
i am going to start showing them decent inkjets so that at least they can see when the images leave me they are perfect. then what the designer/printer does with them is not my problem unless the client wants me to liaise with them.
 
I have a paper/printer combo that matches the color of my monitors almost 100% and also matches the three top off-set printers in my area.

So I feel secure about what I deliver, but there are some horribly poor printers also;)
--
Anders

Some of my pictures can be seen at;
http://teamexcalibur.se/US/usindex.html

event photography and photo journalism
 
..from claiming that my files are faulty.

"so if i start converting through software like that, there is obviously extra charges. what fee do you charge peter?"

This software is not meant for converting files but for proofing. It simulates the conversion to cmyk while printing the rgb file on a (supported) ink jet printer (mostly Epson, HP) and specific paper. Hence, I'm able to prove that my files are okay for the offset run. The print house which converts 'faulty' or imperfect can't claim that the culprit is the photographer...
So, I deliver unconverted but with convenience...at no charge for the client.

--
cheers, Peter

Germany
 
sorry peter i didnt make my reply didnt make any sense. basically you obviously charge a fee for proofing, do you charge extra to at least recoup the cost of the software?
--
if it wasnt for clients i would be a poor man, but happy!
 
sorry peter i didnt make my reply didnt make any sense. basically
you obviously charge a fee for proofing, do you charge extra to at
least recoup the cost of the software?
Andy,

I don't charge the client, unless he demands a proof (as allways it's a matter of negotiation..;-). The software's cost wasn't excessive ( € 600 ) compared to other / overall cost. No, it was more in my best interest, since I (read: we all) don't present a tranny or print anymore.
This .pdf explains more of this RIP (there are other apps as well..)

http://www.efi.com/documents/products/prepress/proofing/photo-edition/pdfs/PhotoEditionBestBrochureProductV1.pdf

--
cheers, Peter

Germany
 
You're learning a lesson that many (including me) have learned before you.

I believe that the only real way to proof a CMYK file is through a professional proofing service, who can do the conversions as well. I'm told that the profiles for inkjet printers are very good, but I think that conversion might be a little disingenuous.

You should be charging extra to do the CMYK conversion, and obviously for the proofs. One way to do it is by "spot proofing" various pages of the book.

Overall, it's better to let the printer handle the proofs. They are the people in the trenches, or rather, on press.

As far as "blocked up" reds are concerned, what you generally need to do is to observe the CMYK channels and divert some of the magenta ink off to another channel. You can do this in Channel Mixer. Typically, you would move some of the M over to the C channel if you want to cut saturation, or to Black if you want to increase detail.

Reds are very tricky to anticipate and you do well to have a Pantone book handy, so that you become familiar with the differing M/Y components of red. For instance, I had a client tell me that a red should be more "Indian" red than "Fire engine" red. Well, on the monitor it looked like Indian red, but as I know that Fire engine red is composed of equal amounts of M and Y, I was able to adjust in the curves.

Good luck!
 
another point is, how do you know that after you convert to your CMYK, that the printer is not converting to his own CMYK color space?

At that point, you might as well deliver in SRGB!
 
on my cd's i state that the images are supplied in adobe rgb unless otherwise requested, then along with the inkjets i feel that the printer/designer should then do their part. this theory has just been backed up by a designer client of mine who i have just got off the phone to.
 
well, you've done your job.

If there still problems, you'll have to take another step forward, perhaps you and the designer should go visit the print house and see what they are up to.

Good luck!
 
I work in printing and know both sides of the RGB - CYMK conversion process.

If you have not applied a specific printer's CYMK profile under color managment or soft proofing all the out of gamut warning is telling you is that the reds in the RGB file exceed the saturation of the most saturated red which can be produced with SWOP standard inks.

That's really not a big deal for one simple reason. The reddest red on the printed page will wind up being the reddest red overlapping Y+M pigments can print, and the eyes of the person viewing that photo, absent any other color reference, will accept that red object as being a highly saturated red. That in essence is what perceptual color is. Our eye adjust to reference tones and what our brains expect us to see.

So yes the colors will change when you convert from RGB to CYMK, but there's nothing which can be done in RGB to alter than outcome. The out of gamut colors in the RGB file will be converted to their nearest equivalents during the gamut conversion. You could also desaturate them in Photoshop, but that only changes the file to display the ultimate outcome of the color so you can predict how it will look, but it does not alter the outcome.

There are many technical factors incorporated into a good CYMK conversion which can only be determined by the company doing the actual printing by profiing each press / ink / paper combination. Color of the stock, reflectance, dot gain, ink trapping, under-color (UCR) and gray component removal (GCR) are all taken into account during the conversion. A printing company which has tight control over its color management will prefer to get RGB files and perform the conversion to CYMK themselves so all of those factors can be controlled an optimized.

Accurate, predictive proofing and color management evolved from the need for advertising clients, ad agencies, and printers to communicate color accurately. Cosmetic ad agencies where notorious for over inking proofs and using non standard inks to get deep saturated colors on the proofs they showed to their clients. The ad agencies would supply color separation films to the printers, who couldn't match the proofs with the standard web printing inks. Agencies and clients would compare the magazine to the proofs they'd supplied and demand a free re-run. That's why SWOP standard inks and proofing methods were developed.

Back in the 1970s when I started in printing management after a stint as a wedding shooter and National Geographic lab technician all supplied ads were accompanied by progressive (single color and combination) press proofs made with SWOP standard proofing inks. We'd measure the ink densities on the proof and inspect the halftone film and compare it to the dot structure on the printed proofs to verify that the supplied film would produce the same result on our press as the proof the client and agency had signed off on. If the evaluation determined we couldn't match the proof we would reject the supplied film.

Fast forward 35 years and now people compare an image on an RGB screen with the printed result. They will jump to the same erroneous conclusions about why the printer couldn't match the original unless they use soft proofing. What soft proofing is designed to do is to make the screen image look similar to what will come off the printer (darker and less saturated) so the client has a reasonable expectation of what those final results will be. Realistic expectations equal fewer complaints.

There are things that can be done to compensate for the inherent changes during printing. An increase in contrast can be used to compensate and fool the eye into thinking the colors are brighter, the same way increasing contrast on image borders fools the eye into thinking the image is sharper (i.e. USM). That's where soft proofing during editing is instructive, but its necessary to have a feed back loop. You need to see the results of the the on-screen edit in the final reproduction and then learn how to anticipate and compensate. It may be necessary to edit to create an image which looks over sharpened or too contrasty on screen to produce one which looks as good as an optimally edited screen shot.

If I were asked to supply CYMK files I'd run like heck the opposite direction because the person asking for them doesn't understand all the reproduction implications and will point the finger of blame at the files if their expectations are not met in the final reproduction.

CG
 
I feel for ya.

An ad agency I shoot for just brought in the finished print job for the outside back covers of 9 phone books. Despite the PDF proof he'd sent the printer, the entire job is completely screwed up - reds in the black areas, the gold lettering is blue...

Good proofs don't prevent bad printers from doing bad work. I used to provide proof prints or Polaroids to my less sophisticated commercial clients when they were taking 4x5 chromes to print houses with the last words I said to them being "Your printed piece should look just like these prints, because this is what you have in these chromes." As so often happened, they'd get some fly by night print job and come back to me.

We eventually decided to set up a cooperative effort with a good color separation house and price jobs with seps included. If the client chose not to take advantage of the color seps, they signed a waiver to the effect that they had now assumed complete responsibility for color accuracy. We effectively later became an agency when we added a designer and print shop who worked well with the color separator - yet another interface that can go awry.

It can be very frustrating, especially as most of my commercial work is direct to manufacturer, 98% of whom are conversant with making whatever widget they make, but have no clue what to do after the shoot.
--
jrbehm
http://homepage.mac.com/jrbehm/Scenic/
 

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