How Long To Keep (Your) DSLR Body

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Thanks - I have gone completely digital now!

The SR44 batteries are readily available, the problem is that the OM1 takes a mercury cell that is no longer made, you can use Silver Oxide (SR) but the voltage is wrong ( someone makes a little adaptor with a voltage drop diode )
 
Do you own a D80?
No, sorry... I was just speaking hypothetically based on reviews and handling the camera at a local store. A friend of mine has D200 and I know that he does not use most of its functions. His motivation was 5 fps to catch movements of his kid. I guess, this is good reason if it is worth the price.
 
So the 400D is 'better'? It doesn't justify dropping a wodge of
cash into Mr.Canon's boots, does it.
Yes, it does in this particular case. The trade-in difference on eBay between 350D and 400D was negligible (about $100 - 200) compared to what the new model provides. Please note that 400D did not replace 350D, but created a new product line. 350D is still made and will continue to be made (until replaced by 4000D) as Canon's entry level offering to compete with Nikon D40 while 400D competes with D80 on a totally different level. For what you get 400D is a sreal, especially compared to 350D with its focusing problems, small LCD, etc.
If the wife's 300D keeps working, for what she uses it for, we're
keeping it.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if what you got does all you need, then you don't need to upgrade.
There is NO point changing it, except for 'fashion' reasons.
This depends on the level of your photographic enthusiasm. If you are happy with the pictures of you that your wife takes (from the image quality standpoint only) then you don't need to upgrade. This does not mean at all that no one should upgrade, but you only.
Which are pointless, and facile, if you think about it.
Since when people stopped paying for fashion?
 
Yes a digital SLR is basically the same as a modern film camera and will last as long.
It probably won't outline an OM1, F2 or a leica rangefinder.

Some of this is semi-deliberate manufacturing - you don't use the same solder / pcb technologies on

consumer electronics as you would use on space probes or deep sea fibre amplifiers.

Special battery availability is another problem, especially if makers change the battery on each model - if a model was only built for a year and only a few were sold how long will they keep making replacement batteries for?

Memory cards and interfaces are a concern. We use a piece of equipement that can handle a maximum 32Mb CF card - they aren't easy to find.

Have you tried hooking up an RS232 peripheral to a modern PC, how long will USB be supported, will there by ORF,NEF readers for windows 2050?
 
So the 400D is 'better'? It doesn't justify dropping a wodge of
cash into Mr.Canon's boots, does it.
Yes, it does in this particular case. The trade-in difference on
eBay between 350D and 400D was negligible (about $100 - 200)
compared to what the new model provides. Please note that 400D did
not replace 350D, but created a new product line. 350D is still
made and will continue to be made (until replaced by 4000D) as
Canon's entry level offering to compete with Nikon D40 while 400D
competes with D80 on a totally different level. For what you get
400D is a sreal, especially compared to 350D with its focusing
problems, small LCD, etc.
Haven't tried the 400D.. no need to... my 350/XT does the job just fine - no 'problems' with the focussing with any of my lenses - quick and accurate, even with motorsport.. if approaching car at 220km/h doesn't test the focus system, there is not much that does!.. small LCD, well, yes, but it provides all the relevant info, and the mono LCD is worth its weight in gold on those clear nights doing star trails!

Disagree on the 400D creating a new niche - it does 'up the ante' compared to the 350, but is a replacement... the 350 continues simply because it effectively competes(beats?) the other guys at the slightly lower level.. you don't discontinue a product as long as there is still profit in it - and I expect that the 350D as the (during it's main run) was the best-selling SLR (including non-digital!) EVER , actually paid off it's tooling... go back just six years, and a DSLR with the capabilities of the 350/XT would have cost in excess of $30,000 US (no that is not a mistake!) - IMO, the 350D is "enough" for the 97% that are not 'professional', and probably half of those would find it 'sufficient'..
If the wife's 300D keeps working, for what she uses it for, we're
keeping it.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if what you got does all you
need, then you don't need to upgrade.
agree here.. the 300D was a sweet camera.. limited in certain respects, but very nice.. (had one, upgraded when I could afford and the upgrade was sufficient).. IQ was(is) very very good.. no point changing unless you really need the changes.
There is NO point changing it, except for 'fashion' reasons.
unless one needs the additional capabilities of the successor models - ten years ago, the humble 300D would have completely obliterated all but the very top end of film SLR's.. now it is an 'artifact'... do not discount 'fashion'!
This depends on the level of your photographic enthusiasm. If you
are happy with the pictures of you that your wife takes (from the
image quality standpoint only) then you don't need to upgrade. This
does not mean at all that no one should upgrade, but you only.
Which are pointless, and facile, if you think about it.
Since when people stopped paying for fashion?
actually disagreeing on some points with both of you, but valid are all points of view... mine do not negate yours, but counterpoint provide.

Cheers,
S.
--
  • How deep does the Rabbit Hole go? *
My XT IS Full Frame -- APS-C/FF of course!
 
Haven't tried the 400D.. no need to... my 350/XT does the job just
fine - no 'problems' with the focussing with any of my lenses
I had 350D for a year and was glad to part with it. I was very disappointed with its focusing system. The fact that Canon has addressed it in the next model makes me both right and glad. You may have not noticed it exactly because your subjects are 200-mph cars. I agree that it is quick, but it's margin of "acceptable" error is obviously visible with its sensor resolution. Anyway, I already explained the details here if you are interested:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=21034226

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=21042011

The bottom line is: if you are happy with it and it performs to your expectations, then you have no problem. It did not perform to my expectations and I got rid of it.
Disagree on the 400D creating a new niche - it does 'up the ante'
compared to the 350, but is a replacement... the 350 continues
simply because it effectively competes(beats?) the other guys at
the slightly lower level.. you don't discontinue a product as long
as there is still profit in it
Currently produced DSLR's compete in several different categories. The lowest one is called "entry level" and is represented by Nikon D40/D50 and Canon 350D. The next category, "amateur" is represented by Nikon D80 and Canon 400D with Nikon here being a bit above Canon. And so on. 10-mp Canon 400D does not compete with 6-mp Nikon D40, but 8-mp Canon 350D does. In turn 10-mp Canon 400D competes with 10-mp Nikon 80D. When time comes, Canon will not just drop 350D, but will replace it with the next model to continue competing with D40. Many believe, the new model name will be 4000D. So as of now Canon 350D and 400D compete in different categories with different models of the competing brand. You could say that Canon 350D with time has moved into a lower category, but it did not change, it still is the same camera. Yet it is in a different category from 400D. This is why 400D created a new category for Canon, whether or not you agree with it. Please see my table of Canon DSLR's for more details:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=20969580
 
your experience with the 350/XT is different than mine - no harm in that... not sure about what you mean by the comment about 'not noticing because my subjects are 200mph cars'... this kind of subject can be/is very challenging on any AF system..when shooting motorsport, the margin of focus error is vanishingly small.. 2-5% is a 'normal' rate of keepers... I usually get around 10-15%..

no argument on your expectations - yours are clearly different than mine.. to each their own..

a week or so ago, you and I exchanged a few positions re: your table, ending in concurrence.. I believe that the 'category' moved, rather than the camera.. the 400D is aiming at a different target than the 350... and is clearly a more capable unit.. there is a huge crossover between 'entry level' and 'amateur' (per your table/definition) - some would say that they are the same - I do not. the 350D is clearly into 'amateur' territory (note a significant # of pros keep one as a backup just because of its small size!)..

I actually envision a more compact version of the 350D in the frame of the '3500D'... basically the same capability in a yet more compact body, perhaps with a rather specialized (small) 'kit' lens - an 18-90 that is physically smaller than the current 18-55 kit lens.. Also, in some ways, the 400D does compete with the 40D, despite the mp difference.. similar target market (entry and amateur)..

I did enjoy the discussion on your other thread - informative and enjoyable!

Cheers,
Scotty
--
  • How deep does the Rabbit Hole go? *
My XT IS Full Frame -- APS-C/FF of course!
 
Yes a digital SLR is basically the same as a modern film camera and
will last as long.
It probably won't outline an OM1, F2 or a leica rangefinder.

Some of this is semi-deliberate manufacturing - you don't use the
same solder / pcb technologies on
consumer electronics as you would use on space probes or deep sea
fibre amplifiers.
Well, the cameras you named above aren't deep space probes, and I don't know about manufacturing technologies, but I do know that in the days when I used to repair electronics, we used the best solder we could get. Of course, that was in electronics. But I'm not sure of the relevance here, as no camera equates to a deep space probe.
Special battery availability is another problem, especially if
makers change the battery on each model - if a model was only built
for a year and only a few were sold how long will they keep making
replacement batteries for?
Isn't there at least one brand still using the same battery configuration it had when it started out? Or is this another argument for AAs.
Memory cards and interfaces are a concern. We use a piece of
equipement that can handle a maximum 32Mb CF card - they aren't
easy to find.
So what? Those cards last nearly forever, and, in fact, a check on eBay will prboably bring some 32MB cards to light.
Have you tried hooking up an RS232 peripheral to a modern PC, how
long will USB be supported, will there by ORF,NEF readers for
windows 2050?
Adapters? I've got several that change a PS2 to a USB, or vice versa, and I've got several that change a serial port to a PS2. I don't imagine adaptation is going to be all that difficult 100 years down the road, but I do doubt many DSLRs or P&Ss will be kept that long, just as few film cameras have been kept that long.

Quite probably, a good deal for the consumer, with a light use DSLR, will be 20-25 or so years of use, in and out of a drawer on special occasions and vacations. At 1,500 or so frames a year, the maximum there would be about 38,000 clicks, something almost all DSLRs should do.

100 years from now? Who cares? Museum curators? Historians? Archeologists? probably. Posterity in general? Not likely. Joe and Jane Sixpack? Not likely. Me? Less likely. I want at least 100,000 clicks and good photos.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
not sure about what you mean by the comment about 'not
noticing because my subjects are 200mph cars'...
What I mean was that they move fast and may be somewhat blurred (perhaps very slightly and totally acceptable for the purpose). In this case it would be hard to tell if the focus was dead on or slightly off and the very slight blur was due to focus precision instead of motion.
this kind of
subject can be/is very challenging on any AF system..when shooting
motorsport, the margin of focus error is vanishingly small.. 2-5%
is a 'normal' rate of keepers... I usually get around 10-15%..
This is an even greater point. If you only keep 1 out of 10 shots then it is not impossible that the low focusing precision contributed in some of the other 9.

In my case, when I focus 3 times oo the same virtually static subject, the result is very slightly different every time. I assume this is due to a predefined precision or acceptable margin of error set by Canon perhaps to increase the speed. One could say that it was in focus every time. However, when I shot a distant pattern (a fence) marginally resolved by the sensor, it was visible only half the time due to focusing. I did it to test the resolution of EF 50 f/1.4 and I could not, because the lens/sensor combination outperformed focusing precision on this camera in a very wide range of apertures.

It also never could focus on the moon at night with 200mm.

Possibly I had a poor sample of 350D, although a friend of mine had the same problem (which is gone in his new 400D). So may be other samples are better, but it means that I need to buy several cameras and test them to select one, and this is rather a hassle.
I actually envision a more compact version of the 350D in the frame
of the '3500D'... basically the same capability in a yet more
compact body
This is interesting. Do you think there is a sufficient demand for a smaller DSLR? Or would the purpose be to push DSLR's into the target market of compacts? It may be challenging to keep the same sensor size.
perhaps with a rather specialized (small) 'kit' lens - an 18-90
that is physically smaller than the current 18-55 kit lens..
I wonder how could it be smaller without decreasing the sensor size and focus multiplier. But either way I hope they make it smoother than the 18-55, because it is the worst mechanically built lens I have ever seen.
Also, in some ways, the 400D does compete with the 40D,
despite the mp difference.. similar target market (entry and
amateur)..
True and they do it on purpose. Nikon and Canon make cameras not exacly in the same categories, but shifted half way. It allows them to catch their target markets without too much competition. It allows consumers to choose based on features rather than based purely on the brand. For example, if 400D had a pentaprism and a large grip then it would be hardly different from D80. And then the true competition would start between the brands pushing one to lower the price below profit. But as it is, some people care more for a $200 difference than for a pentaprism, each manufacturer wins, and consumers have more choices.

So the lineup is like this:

N D40 - C 350D - C 400D - N D80 - C40D (10.4mp, 2007) - N D200 - C 5D

I am not even sure where Canon 30D belongs. Perhaps between Canon 400D and Nikon D80 or else completely out, because I don't know why anybody would buy it at all. This situation should speed up the introduction of 40D that should be a very nice camera option.
 
Those cards last nearly forever
They last quite a bit, but not forever. Unlike RAM that is not limited by the number of read/write cycles, flash cards are limited by some number (10 thousand or something like this). For example, if you use a flash drive as your Outlook inbox, the drive may not last a year, because of the chatty Outlook protocol with constant storage access. This is hardly a problem for digital cameras, but still it is not impossible to lose a shot due to a very old flash card or if the card was intensively used for other purposes.
100 years from now? Who cares? Museum curators? Historians?
Archeologists? probably. Posterity in general? Not likely. Joe and
Jane Sixpack? Not likely. Me? Less likely. I want at least 100,000
clicks and good photos.
20 years from now computers will become intelligent. 30 years - the artificial superintelligence far surpasses all collective intelligence of people and becomes critical for production and governance. 40 years - people are removed from the production process and no longer need to work. 50 years - superintelligence takes over worldwide govenrnace allowing people local self governance. Overpopulation control is technologically enforced by allowing only one kid per family for the next 5 centuries. 100 years - people live natural way of life in a clean environment. Robots explore the solar system. 500 years - human population on Earth is reduced to 100 million. The overpopulation control policy changes from reduction to maintenence - 2 kids per family. Robots explore the Milky Way galaxy. 1000 years - other planets created or modified in other star systems to adopt the biosphere from Earth. Samples of all species including humans are sent there to colonize these worlds in case of a space catastrophe on Earth.

Our Earth already may be on one of these planets...

Sorry for jumping off the subject... I hope we will be allowed to use digital cameras in the future...
 
What flagship? I have 20d and still cant find any reason to by a new camera ar the price range
 
What flagship? I have 20d and still cant find any reason to by a
new camera ar the price range
True, but it is because 20D is only slightly over 2 years old and 30D was not a true upgrade. I expect the introduction of 40D with 10.4 mp at PMA in March. If I had 20D, I would be looking forward to 40D as an upgrade.
 
  • bunch of snips, post too long..
this case it would be hard to tell if the focus was dead on or
slightly off and the very slight blur was due to focus precision
instead of motion.
in my experience, it is relatively easy to tell if the blur is caused by the motion or if it is caused by missed focus - I have one shot from October that shows this very clearly, and would be happy to email you a copy direct (I have no host site, so can't post here directly) - the shot in question was taken with XT, cheap 75-300/4-5.6III on the long end, AF, 1/60, f/16 - center focus point dead on the A-pillar/hood junction - nose of the car is soft, tail is sharp... in this particular case, the AF did miss the target (trailing).. the likelyhood on this shot is that the LENS, not the camera's AF could not cope with the rate of change..

ask the full-time pros, who use top-lline gear... their keeper rate is usually similar to mine.. one really needs to address the whole system (including the lens) before making statements on focus precision of a body. While it is not impossible that the focus precision contributed to some of the failed shots, often it is a case of missed framing or missed positioning or missing the timing on the shutter button(monkey error).
In my case, when I focus 3 times oo the same virtually static
subject, the result is very slightly different every time. I assume
this is due to a predefined precision or acceptable margin of error
set by Canon perhaps to increase the speed. One could say that it
was in focus every time. However, when I shot a distant pattern (a
fence) marginally resolved by the sensor, it was visible only half
the time due to focusing. I did it to test the resolution of EF 50
f/1.4 and I could not, because the lens/sensor combination
outperformed focusing precision on this camera in a very wide range
of apertures.
remember that Canon claims 'within one DOF' for focus accuracy on the XT - this is likely the problem on the shot I described above - I am not certain of the accuracy spec on the higher-rated bodies.
It also never could focus on the moon at night with 200mm.

Possibly I had a poor sample of 350D, although a friend of mine had
the same problem (which is gone in his new 400D). So may be other
samples are better, but it means that I need to buy several cameras
and test them to select one, and this is rather a hassle.
perhaps your samples of the 350 were 'below average'.. there are certainly enough samples out there, it being the best-selling SLR of all time!
This is interesting. Do you think there is a sufficient demand for
a smaller DSLR? Or would the purpose be to push DSLR's into the
target market of compacts? It may be challenging to keep the same
sensor size.
I think there is sufficient demand - the E-400 is proof that there is some level of demand.. the Canon equivalent would of necessity be thicker front to back because of the longer flange-sensor distance of the EF mount, but the rest of the body could likely be made more compact.. Some of its purpose would be to push DSLRs into the 'compact' market - touting big sensor capability in a small package... I would envision several more EF-S lenses as well, if that were the goal - compact zooms - an 18-105/3.5-5.6 in a similar size (perhaps non-extending) to the 'kit' 18-55, as a do-it-all... this part of the discussion might fit into your other thread speculating on the future of Canon's DSLRs in the 4000D/entry level..

agree with you on hoping they make it mechanically better than the kit lens.. making the sensor smaller, but staying with the EF mount, would make the lens bigger - look at the size of the 10-22 compared to the 'kit'..
Also, in some ways, the 400D does compete with the 40D,
despite the mp difference.. similar target market (entry and
amateur)..
True and they do it on purpose.
So the lineup is like this:

N D40 - C 350D - C 400D - N D80 - C40D (10.4mp, 2007) - N D200 - C 5D

I am not even sure where Canon 30D belongs. Perhaps between Canon
400D and Nikon D80 or else completely out, because I don't know why
anybody would buy it at all. This situation should speed up the
introduction of 40D that should be a very nice camera option.
we are in agreement here - both in your suggested lineup and in 'where the 30D belongs' - clearly the 30D is a freshening of the 20D.. I would put it between the C400 and the N80 at this time because of the build and handling (similar style to the N80) - I expect that the C40D when it comes out will be quite close to the N D200 - a little lower in position, but very close - so that Canon has the D200 bracketed by the 5D and 40D - more choice for the consumer, no direct competition, and significantly higher-spec than the 400D so as not to repeat the same problem they had with the 20D/350D - basically the same IQ, but two different market segments, the 20D was the loser on that one..

Cheers,
S.
--
  • How deep does the Rabbit Hole go? *
My XT IS Full Frame -- APS-C/FF of course!
 
....my E1. The only cam that I would accept and buy is the successor.

B

--
Get a Life, get a Mac
 
I still have the 300D, yeah it has a dead pixel, and is "only" 6mp
compared to the newer 10+MP offerings, but it does the job for me.
It will be with me till it goes kaput.
I have Digital Rebel a. k. a. 350D and will also keep it until it dies.

--
Milan

http://milan.smugmug.com
 
I still have the 300D, yeah it has a dead pixel, and is "only" 6mp
compared to the newer 10+MP offerings, but it does the job for me.
It will be with me till it goes kaput.
Vincent, just for curiosity, what year car do you drive?
2002 Honda Accord.
Will it also be with you till it goes kaput?
Why not? That's what we do with our vehicles. My last trade-in, I was lucky to get $1,000, and, in truth, I'm fairly sure they hyped the new car price by $500 to give me that. I don't know how Vincent does it, but when repairs exceed the likely monthly payments on a new(er) car, I trade.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
I have Digital Rebel a. k. a. 350D and will also keep it until itdies.
What if it never dies? It doesn't have to die. Are you set for life then?
 

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