Fuji S5 Framerate - CCD Question

Now the final buffer specs are out, I'm left with one question about performance.

In Standard DR mode, the FPS is 3. Not fast, not too slow considering it's not a sports cam, etc..

In Wide DR mode the FPS is 1.5. This IS slow.

What I am wondering about, though, is why the framerate drops for wide DR shots. The only conclusion I can reach myself is that in wide DR shots, all 12 million sites are used and thus the amount of data on the memory bus is doubled.

However this would imply that in Standard DR mode, the extra photosites are not being read off,meaning that only 6mp are actually in use.

This makes the leaping assumption that the FPS is sensor-> memory bandwidth limited. I'm not sure of the computational overhead in the JPEG engine but I would have thought that if computation was the bottleneck that you would see better FPS in RAW mode (No JPG DR calculation.)

SO I'm left thinking that getting the data off the CCD is where the bottleneck ocurrs and amd thus left wondering if all 12 million sites are put to use in Standard DR mode.

If they're not, then we only receive 3fps when using the camera in a crippled mode, as the whole point of the S5 is the S and R pixel combination.

Does anyone out there know how this fits together?

Denyerec said:

Now the final buffer specs are out, I'm left with one question
about performance.

In Standard DR mode, the FPS is 3. Not fast, not too slow
considering it's not a sports cam, etc..

In Wide DR mode the FPS is 1.5. This IS slow.

What I am wondering about, though, is why the framerate drops for
wide DR shots. The only conclusion I can reach myself is that in
wide DR shots, all 12 million sites are used and thus the amount of
data on the memory bus is doubled.

Click to expand...

This has been been talked here over and over gain. The reason is that the sensor can not send the data faster. If it had a D200 like 4-way output it would be faster, but it does not and so it is 1,5/3,0 FPS only.

Denyerec said:

SO I'm left thinking that getting the data off the CCD is where the
bottleneck ocurrs and amd thus left wondering if all 12 million
sites are put to use in Standard DR mode.

Click to expand...

It is just like with S3, in standard DR only 6 MP are used, and in Wide-DR 2 x 6 MP = 12 MP is used.

--
Osku

The Answer to The Ultimate Question Of Life, the Universe and Everything is 42.

Sorry, i had to post that. You have now caught up to the rest of Fujista's and the Fuji quandry. If we could assit Fuji with this. we would be rich and Fuji would sell a lot more cameras.

I eagerly await my fellow forum members and their views on this never ending question.
--
Im outa luck, outa love
Gotta photograph, picture of
Passion killer, youre too much
Youre the only one I wanna touch
I see your face every time I dream
On every page, every magazine
So wild and free so far from me
Youre all I want, my fantasy

I always reply to the statement, "I have a question" with...

"The answer is 7!"

Moreover, since I'm sure that probably happens in multiples of 6 the real answer could very well be 42. Thus, while not agreeing completely with you, I think it may actually be 42 rather than 7 so I will agree not to argue with you on this point.

42 seems like a good answer.

the answer is 42
once again BPK speaks truth
--
pbase & dpreview supporter
Fuji SLRT forum member since 5/2001
http://www.pbase.com/artichoke

Denyerec said:

In Standard DR mode, the FPS is 3. Not fast, not too slow
considering it's not a sports cam, etc..

In Wide DR mode the FPS is 1.5. This IS slow.

Click to expand...

Twice as much data 1/2 the speed what's not to understand

Denyerec said:

What I am wondering about, though, is why the framerate drops for
wide DR shots. The only conclusion I can reach myself is that in
wide DR shots, all 12 million sites are used and thus the amount of
data on the memory bus is doubled.

Click to expand...

Yep

Denyerec said:

However this would imply that in Standard DR mode, the extra
photosites are not being read off,meaning that only 6mp are
actually in use.

Click to expand...

Yep that what standard mode means (same as S3)

Denyerec said:

This makes the leaping assumption that the FPS is sensor-> memory
bandwidth limited. I'm not sure of the computational overhead in
the JPEG engine but I would have thought that if computation was
the bottleneck that you would see better FPS in RAW mode (No JPG DR
calculation.)

Click to expand...

The bottleneck must being reading off the sensor as the frame rate is the same in Raw as Raw+jpg fine

Denyerec said:

SO I'm left thinking that getting the data off the CCD is where the
bottleneck occurs and I'm thus left wondering if all 12 million
sites are put to use in Standard DR mode.

Click to expand...

In standard mode S2,S3 & S5 use 6 million pixels to create a 12Mp image. In wide mode the S3 & S5 use the extra pixels to add highlight data to improve picture quality the final image size is still 12Mp

Denyerec said:

If they're not, then we only receive 3fps when using the camera in
a crippled mode, as the whole point of the S5 is the S and R pixel
combination.

Click to expand...

It's about flexibility if you need speed and can switch to standard mode and still get a picture if you need quality switch to wide. The difference is no matter how slow you shoot with your Nikon\Canon you will not capture as much highlight data

Denyerec said:

Does anyone out there know how this fits together?

Click to expand...

Yep I do and I guess the guys at Fujifilm may have a clue

"brain the size of a planet and here I am parking cars" for BPK
--
Richard H
Web http://www.halfday.co.uk
Blog http://drawyah.spaces.live.com

I just checked the file sizes and frames per second of the D200 and the data transfere rate is just about as fast with the D200. The D200 raw file size is 15MB and gets 3 frames per second. The file size of the S5 wide Raw file is 25 MB and gets 1.5 frames per second so the S5 is not that much slower. Perhaps even has an edge with standard raw + jpeg
Will

I don't know why in previous infomation, Fuji say Super CCD SR PRO, but now, they say SR II (like S3Pro) ?? And I see S5Pro be like an update-S3Pro (in buffer only) ?? Very very disappointed in Fuji !!!

No, you are wrong, D200 can take 5fps, 22 RAW/37 Jpeg for the buffer.

I think anyone has to complaint about something in a camera.

But why not just be happy Fuji gives us another wonderful tool
to work with?

If you want to shoot race cars at high speed or supersonic fighterjets, this is
not the camera for you! This was discussed 100 times in the past.

Photographers who shoot people, fashion, art or nature, 1,5 frame/sec is enough.
For those users, the S Pro line is made.

Markus

Completely off topic (Please forgive me), it's nice to see quotations from 'Deep Thought' and 'Marvin the Paranoid Android' making their way into discussions about the S5.

On topic: With your current S3, have you noticed much difference in speed using different cards? I use an ATP Pro Max 1GB CF card in my camera and find it to be much faster for writing files than my Olympus H-type 1GB XD.

Different high-speed cards can make a big difference in the S3's performance (Unlike my old Pentax *ist DS -- I bought a ridiculously expensive Centrios Pro Series 66X 1 GB SD card and it performed no better than a standard Lexar 1 GB SD card bought at Wal Mart.)

Anyone know where to find a comparison between different high-speed CF cards when used in the S3?

Markus Richter said:

If you want to shoot race cars at high speed or supersonic
fighterjets, this is
not the camera for you! This was discussed 100 times in the past.

Click to expand...

discount what some can do. I never thought I would get decent shots at the air show. The combination of a slow lens, handholding, hot flroida sun, and the massive speed of the S3 in wide DR. I think I did real well. So well in fact that I am now thinking 2 S5's instead of a S5/D200 combo.

so i will go shoot my racecars at high speed and supersonic fighter jets and this is the camera for me. i just wont really be allowed to moan much about the speed of it.

--
Im outa luck, outa love
Gotta photograph, picture of
Passion killer, youre too much
Youre the only one I wanna touch
I see your face every time I dream
On every page, every magazine
So wild and free so far from me
Youre all I want, my fantasy

Perhaps I was simply over elaborate with my question, I should simply have asked "In standard mode is half the CCD used?" to which the answer "yes" could have been offered.

Fuji fans will say it's a 3fps cam with super image quality but a low res, though one has to wonder at the value of 3fps if you're only using half the camera.

Of course one can retort with "OK in a pinch, fine if you need speed, image quality will be better than X..." etc, or come back with unecessary pious commentary about something beside the point.

It just smacks of marketting-speak, as to do what the S5 (And S3) are designed to do from the ground up (Extend DR) is only possible at 1.5fps, rather than the 3fps that people are keen to latch on to in comparison to the figures offered by the D200.

With the original question answered, at least now I know that I'm evaluating a 1.5fps camera, not one capable of 3, when used as intended.

http://robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7700-7491

--
Im outa luck, outa love
Gotta photograph, picture of
Passion killer, youre too much
Youre the only one I wanna touch
I see your face every time I dream
On every page, every magazine
So wild and free so far from me
Youre all I want, my fantasy

...is why Fuji treats both S&R photosites the same with 14 bit depth in the raw data. The R photosites have a very limited tonal sensitivity and 14 bit A/D is overkill for this "half" of the raw data.

Fuji apparently believes that jpeg shooters are the primary buyers for its DSLRs. Perhaps they're right. But perhaps if Fuji put some investment into delivering raw compression to cut the "wide" raw file size and write speed, the S5 would appeal to a wider market.

I'm baffled that Fuji can figure out how to process wide jpegs in-camera yet it can't deliver a better high DR raw file option (requiring much less processing power).

--
BJN

Denyerec said:

Perhaps I was simply over elaborate with my question, I should
simply have asked "In standard mode is half the CCD used?" to which
the answer "yes" could have been offered.

Fuji fans will say it's a 3fps cam with super image quality but a
low res, though one has to wonder at the value of 3fps if you're
only using half the camera.

Of course one can retort with "OK in a pinch, fine if you need
speed, image quality will be better than X..." etc, or come back
with unecessary pious commentary about something beside the point.

It just smacks of marketting-speak, as to do what the S5 (And S3)
are designed to do from the ground up (Extend DR) is only possible
at 1.5fps, rather than the 3fps that people are keen to latch on to
in comparison to the figures offered by the D200.

With the original question answered, at least now I know that I'm
evaluating a 1.5fps camera, not one capable of 3, when used as
intended.

Click to expand...

Ahhhh, I see lots of assumptions being implied here. The camera when used as inteneded is in standard mode. thus you have 3 fps. Fuji has not intended for the camera to be used in wide mode 100% of the time. my experience seems to indicate that the S3 has a faster fps in wide Dr in jpg, than it does in raw. according to fuji the S3 is 1.4fps in wide dr for both raw and jpeg.

--
Im outa luck, outa love
Gotta photograph, picture of
Passion killer, youre too much
Youre the only one I wanna touch
I see your face every time I dream
On every page, every magazine
So wild and free so far from me
Youre all I want, my fantasy

--I guess this is fast enough, when you also consider that no other manufacturer even offers this feature...

Let's keep the whining in perspective folks...

Russ



Greater is He that is within me, than he who is in this world...

Apologies for the assumptions, I'm basing them off the rather blinkered viewpoint that the primary motivation for using an S5 would be for DR, as it's already been widely accepted that tha D200 beats it for speed and the 5d for resolving power (And, I am reading, comparable colour performance after some PP).

Therefore from that viewpoint, it would seem that to make the "most" of the camera you're in 1.5fps land.

Obviously that isn't taking into account the colour and tonality of the S5 or the "magic" that Fuji has applied to, hopefully, make the most out of those 6MP.

It seems, to me anyway, that the Fuji will once again resume its position as a slow art camera, as anyone wanting speed over quality will be better placed elsewhere. (Implying again here that 6MP S5 files are out-done by the D200/5d, which in some respects will be true (resolution) but until we see S5 samples, no-one can comment on the quality.)

Of course, if the "magic" applied to the S3 sensor to produce the S5 actually allows those 6MP ro resolve truly, then we may well be all quite happy blasting away at 3fps

(By the way, I only own an S2. Never could afford to move to the S3)

i use my S3 in wide Dr all the time. i am now thinking, i really dont need to at all. I do know that when i move to the S5 i wont be shoot art. i intend to go fuji shooting at the track and hope to "shame" fuji into making a PJ camera based on the HR sensor.

this is my new goal in life.
--
Im outa luck, outa love
Gotta photograph, picture of
Passion killer, youre too much
Youre the only one I wanna touch
I see your face every time I dream
On every page, every magazine
So wild and free so far from me
Youre all I want, my fantasy

Doesn't using the S3 out of HDR mode make you feel like you're using an S2, though ? Seems like you're switching off half the technology...

Of course, there are situations in which you do not need the extended DR... I suppose it's nice to have the choice , which is something you cannot have elsewhere.

Just wish they could have upped the bandwidth on the sensor bus... Ahh well. I'm still shooting happily with an S2 after 4 years, so what am I complaining about really...