Still a sore a gap: Fast nikon wide prime.

Yea, FF or DX?
It would have to be full-frame in that range.
The sort of folks who would buy a $2,000+ f/1.4 lens are
in the same market as those who will buy the first full-frame
Nikon digital camera off the production line. They are going
to want their lens to work on their new camera and with all
the full-frame benefits.
not a single wide angle prime, not even a f2.8, has
been produced for DX.
Nikon already has, in production, full-frame f/2.8 or
better wide angle lenses -- ten of them from 14mm to
35mm if you count the fisheye. That is a great lineup.
I really can't see why Nikon would produce a DX-cripled
version of a lens they already have in production and
which will work fine on DX cameras as well as full-frame.
I can understand why people want one -- they feel
it will be smaller and cost less -- but I don't understand
why Nikon would fill that want. The people who need
lenses in that range to make money already have the
full-frame versions. It costs a lot of money to create and
manufacture a lens. Would enough DX versions sell to
support the production run? Nikon has clearly said 'no'.
new prime production over the last 10 years amount
to AFAICT 2 lenses --- the 14 2.8 and the 105 VR.
What about the 10.5/4 fisheye, 45/2.8, 200/2 VR
and 300/2.8 VR? They were all new or greatly updated.
If you count the super-telephoto lenses that have been
updated with AFS-II, there may be more.

Matt
 
--"Mironv stop being silly.....this is just brand zealotry of
yours...?"

Well I think that you are displeing brand zealotry presuming to a
world that Nikon must do something and deliver as from a evill of
good Sigma lenses.
It simple economics. 28mm lens was descontinued coase last person
that can hand made aspherical elemant for this lens went on
retaiermant.
Aspherical elements aren't that big of a deal anymore. There's no
reason to grind them by hand. Just to illustrate my point here's a
lens featuring an aspherical element at the whopping price of $79

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=113828&is=USA&addedTroughType=search

I doubt there are many people on this rock of ours you could employ
to hand grind an element for that little amount of money.
Am I right in thinking that the linked lens is a hybrid aspheric or a moulded plastic one? My understanding is that glass aspherics, particularly ground ones are still relatively expensive, even if the need to figure them by hand has largely disappeared.
 
Yea, FF or DX?
It would have to be full-frame in that range.
The sort of folks who would buy a $2,000+ f/1.4 lens are
in the same market as those who will buy the first full-frame
Nikon digital camera off the production line. They are going
to want their lens to work on their new camera and with all
the full-frame benefits.
This is conjecture ..... How many people have bought the sigma 30mm 1.4 DX ? I don't know, do you? Why does the lens have to be FF? Why does the lens have to be so special?

Honestly, a 24 1.4 DX, sharp to the corrners , sounds better than anything currently in the marketplace, for either Nikon or Canon users. Does it have to cost $2000? I'd sure like to try the $1130 canon 24 1.4 on my d2xs if such were possible. Check out its MTFs on a DX frame. It looks very, very close to the nikon 28 f1.4 on a DX frame. Both should work excellent on DX. I know the nikon does, my 28 rocks even wide open on my d2x .... I bet the canon 24 1.4 would too. $1130, label it DX (or not), and watch em sell.
not a single wide angle prime, not even a f2.8, has
been produced for DX.
Nikon already has, in production, full-frame f/2.8 or
better wide angle lenses -- ten of them from 14mm to
35mm if you count the fisheye. That is a great lineup.
You know, you made me count here :) Surprised me really. I've always been so happy with my 17-35, I've never really paid any attention to all the f2.8 primes. And I still won't unless it's the 14mm .... they're too slow.
I really can't see why Nikon would produce a DX-cripled
version of a lens they already have in production and
which will work fine on DX cameras as well as full-frame.
I can understand why people want one -- they feel
it will be smaller and cost less -- but I don't understand
why Nikon would fill that want.
Uh, Maybe fullfilling the want would sell some lenses???
The people who need
lenses in that range to make money already have the
full-frame versions.
Trying to distinguish need from want is futile at best.
It costs a lot of money to create and
manufacture a lens. Would enough DX versions sell to
support the production run? Nikon has clearly said 'no'.
Sigma said yes, to DX at least. And exactly how do we know why Nikon has not made any DX wide angle primes? Is it necessarily due to your market reasoning? Maybe Nikon is just production constrained? Or maybe they're tried a design(s) and failed? Or maybe they worry that selling an expensive DX wide angle and then eventually releasing a FF body is a bad idea? Or maybe they've simply decided the place to be is in cheap zoom land? Who knows?
new prime production over the last 10 years amount
to AFAICT 2 lenses --- the 14 2.8 and the 105 VR.
What about the 10.5/4 fisheye, 45/2.8, 200/2 VR
and 300/2.8 VR? They were all new or greatly updated.
If you count the super-telephoto lenses that have been
updated with AFS-II, there may be more.
Yea, my bad. I meant to start out with no new prime production "under 200mm". (Must be good money in teles given the updates to them vs what's been done under 200mm.) And I flat missed the fish and pancake.
But still, 4 primes under 200mm in 10 years?? .....

anyway, you'll never convince me nikon shouldn't be cranking out something down here ... if they're still courting the entire dslr market.

best, mark
 
Nikon isn't focus on high end segment anymore. The majority of its user base don't really care for high ISO/thin DOF images. Can you imagine buying a DX prime?? There is no market for that. The ones who cared have already switched to Canon. You know who you are. Keep waiting as it won't happen until the next generation of photography advancements. Maybe Nikon execs will wake up. You are confusing Film Nikon with the Digital Nikon. Completely different company and focus!
 
its not like these threads ("nikon wake up, and the likes") gonna
make a diffrence.
Well, if threads like this don't make a difference, if Nikon really
isn't scanning the forums to figure out how to better serve the
market, or if they simply ignore what they hear, what does that
tell you?
Based on what the majority express an interest in buying, and given that Nikon marketing seems to be running things now, it seems to me that Nikon IS scanning the Internet to know what to build, and they're building it. Fast primes are a niche market, something Nikon used to serve but apparently can no longer afford to. Niche markets are best served by specialty manufacturers. Look to 3rd party lens developers coming out with f/1.4 primes, not Nikon. Sigma is a perfect example. Of course one can always hope against hope, but I wouldn't count on Nikon being the main contributor to f/1.4 DX lenses.

--
http://www.pbase.com/fjp
FJP, Software Developer
 
How many people have bought the sigma 30mm 1.4 DX ?
The Sigma 30/1.4 is a $400 lens. The Nikon 28/1.4 is a
$1,800 lens. The proposed Nikon 24/1.4 is going to check
in at a minimum of that price. That isn't apples and oranges.
That is bananas and BMWs. I have no trouble agreeing that
the Sigma 30/1.4 is selling like hotcakes. I just don't think
that indicates demand for a much more expensive lens.
I've always been so happy with my 17-35, I've never
really paid any attention to all the f2.8 primes. And I
still won't unless it's the 14mm .... they're too slow.
I agree. I, too, have the 17-35 and see no need for any
primes in that range. I'd love the 14/2.8 but can't come up
with a legitimate reason to spend the money.
Trying to distinguish need from want is futile at best.
Exactly, which is why I think pre-sales would be such
a good idea.
Down here in South Florida, we have people putting
down hard money on condos before permits are even
issued by the city. Half the units are sold before ground
is even broken. Those pre-sales fund construction.
If Nikon really wanted to see where wants and needs
are located, they'd allow people to put money down on
these exotic lens. Once there are enough deposits to
make building the lens cost effective, they'd let the
production line run.
Maybe Nikon is just production constrained?
If I'm reading Thom Hogan correctly, I think that is
absolutely an issue.
maybe they worry that selling an expensive DX wide angle
and then eventually releasing a FF body is a bad idea?
That would be at the top of my concerns list. I certainly
wouldn't want to produce a DX format lens if I knew a
full-frame camera was on the horizon. The same folks who
are going to drop $7,000 (or whatever) on a D3FF are the
folks who will want a full-frame 24/1.4.
But still, 4 primes under 200mm in 10 years?? .....
I think part of the problem is the misconception that if
a lens isn't updated every couple of years, it is hopelessly
useless. I'm not putting those words in your mouth, by the
way, but that is often the undercurrent of discussions.
I have a Nikon 16/3.5, 24/2.8 (two), 35/2, 50/1.8
(series E), 55/3.5, 105/2.5, 135/2, 180/2.8, 300/4.5 and
500/8. Each of them works just as well today (optically,
they are all manual focus) as when I got them. That's
the beauty of Nikon. If I didn't have Nikon's 17-35 and
70-200, I'd still be using these fixed-length manual lenses.
I do still use the 300mm.
Just because Nikon isn't currently selling the lenses new
doesn't mean you can't get them. Just because they are
30 years old (my 24 is from 1968) doesn't mean they
should be thrown out and replaced.
The bulk of the auto focus lenses Nikon has produced
since the 1990s are just fine for use on DX format cameras.
That's 15 or so years worth of glass. If you're fine with
manual focus lenses, you have over 35 years worth of
glass. There is plenty of choice out there for Nikon bodies.
It may not be at the right price point but that has always
been the case when it comes to Nikon.
you'll never convince me nikon shouldn't be cranking
out something down here ...
Personally, I'd love to see Nikon produce some fast
fixed-length lenses just to end the complaining and
because they are works of art and I like to touch them.
That said, I'm not sure people would be willing to pay
the high price.

Matt
 
As far as a high iso sensor negating the need for fast glass ...
not it our lifetime I don't think. As long as we need flash for
anything, we will continue to need fast glass. And for long glass,
there's always the need to isolate even if we had iso 10 million.
Better performance at higher ISOs will severely reduce the need for fast glass to those situations requiring a sharp lens at a settest producing a shallow depth of field. Pretty much every persons shooting low-light action (indoor sports, theater, kids) would prefer shooting at f/2.8 or wider. The only advantage the great f/1.4 primes offer in that situation is a sharp lens at f/2.8 , while excluding the AFS needed.

To compound the functional competition with the 28mm f/1.4, most photographers prefer the shallow DOF and perspective combination obtainable with lenses 50mm and longer. Also, the 35mm f/2 takes a bite out of the uses for the 28mm f/1.4 .

The 28mm f/1.4 is my workhorse, as judged by the number of exposures. Honestly, I'm using it only because it's the best solution for shooting my indoor sports at ISO800, f/2.2 , 1/250 with a mild fill flash. I would use the 17-55DX in this situation if it performed as well optically in combination with the (wishing here) high dynamic range D3H.
Come on guys, let's quit finding reasonswhy Nikon doesn't have any
good wide glass, and put a little pressure on them, OK? Surely
I did. I bought two Nikon 28mm f/1.4's and several other great fast primes in their currrent line-up: (28/50/85mm f/1.4, 105mm DC, 200mm f/2, 300mm f/2.8, 400mm f/2.8).
 
Better performance at higher ISOs will severely reduce the need for
fast glass to those situations requiring a sharp lens at a settest
producing a shallow depth of field. Pretty much every persons
shooting low-light action (indoor sports, theater, kids) would
prefer shooting at f/2.8 or wider. The only advantage the great
f/1.4 primes offer in that situation is a sharp lens at f/2.8 ,
while excluding the AFS needed.
Sure, I get what your saying.
To compound the functional competition with the 28mm f/1.4, most
photographers prefer the shallow DOF and perspective combination
obtainable with lenses 50mm and longer. Also, the 35mm f/2 takes
a bite out of the uses for the 28mm f/1.4 .
Well, I'm not with you here. I kinda feel you have to first choose focal length for framing, and then choose aperture for DOF. IOW, framing considerations keep you from arbitrarily using longer glass to reduce DOF. Maybe you can a little by shooting tighter, but not much. So the need for speed seems to remain at every aperture IMO.
The 28mm f/1.4 is my workhorse, as judged by the number of
exposures. Honestly, I'm using it only because it's the best
solution for shooting my indoor sports at ISO800, f/2.2 , 1/250
with a mild fill flash. I would use the 17-55DX in this situation
if it performed as well optically in combination with the (wishing
here) high dynamic range D3H.
Yea, me too ... same reasoning.
I did. I bought two Nikon 28mm f/1.4's and several other great
fast primes in their currrent line-up: (28/50/85mm f/1.4, 105mm DC,
200mm f/2, 300mm f/2.8, 400mm f/2.8).
Hey me too again! All the same list, only I'm not so lucky to have 2 of the 28's! enjoy....

best, mark
 
How many people have bought the sigma 30mm 1.4 DX ?
The Sigma 30/1.4 is a $400 lens. The Nikon 28/1.4 is a
$1,800 lens. The proposed Nikon 24/1.4 is going to check
in at a minimum of that price. That isn't apples and oranges.
That is bananas and BMWs. I have no trouble agreeing that
the Sigma 30/1.4 is selling like hotcakes. I just don't think
that indicates demand for a much more expensive lens.
I've always been so happy with my 17-35, I've never
really paid any attention to all the f2.8 primes. And I
still won't unless it's the 14mm .... they're too slow.
I agree. I, too, have the 17-35 and see no need for any
primes in that range. I'd love the 14/2.8 but can't come up
with a legitimate reason to spend the money.
Trying to distinguish need from want is futile at best.
Exactly, which is why I think pre-sales would be such
a good idea.
Down here in South Florida, we have people putting
down hard money on condos before permits are even
issued by the city. Half the units are sold before ground
is even broken. Those pre-sales fund construction.
If Nikon really wanted to see where wants and needs
are located, they'd allow people to put money down on
these exotic lens. Once there are enough deposits to
make building the lens cost effective, they'd let the
production line run.
Maybe Nikon is just production constrained?
If I'm reading Thom Hogan correctly, I think that is
absolutely an issue.
maybe they worry that selling an expensive DX wide angle
and then eventually releasing a FF body is a bad idea?
That would be at the top of my concerns list. I certainly
wouldn't want to produce a DX format lens if I knew a
full-frame camera was on the horizon. The same folks who
are going to drop $7,000 (or whatever) on a D3FF are the
folks who will want a full-frame 24/1.4.
But still, 4 primes under 200mm in 10 years?? .....
I think part of the problem is the misconception that if
a lens isn't updated every couple of years, it is hopelessly
useless. I'm not putting those words in your mouth, by the
way, but that is often the undercurrent of discussions.
I have a Nikon 16/3.5, 24/2.8 (two), 35/2, 50/1.8
(series E), 55/3.5, 105/2.5, 135/2, 180/2.8, 300/4.5 and
500/8. Each of them works just as well today (optically,
they are all manual focus) as when I got them. That's
the beauty of Nikon. If I didn't have Nikon's 17-35 and
70-200, I'd still be using these fixed-length manual lenses.
I do still use the 300mm.
Just because Nikon isn't currently selling the lenses new
doesn't mean you can't get them. Just because they are
30 years old (my 24 is from 1968) doesn't mean they
should be thrown out and replaced.
The bulk of the auto focus lenses Nikon has produced
since the 1990s are just fine for use on DX format cameras.
That's 15 or so years worth of glass. If you're fine with
manual focus lenses, you have over 35 years worth of
glass. There is plenty of choice out there for Nikon bodies.
It may not be at the right price point but that has always
been the case when it comes to Nikon.
you'll never convince me nikon shouldn't be cranking
out something down here ...
Personally, I'd love to see Nikon produce some fast
fixed-length lenses just to end the complaining and
because they are works of art and I like to touch them.
That said, I'm not sure people would be willing to pay
the high price.
Nice reply Matt, thx

I can agree with a lot of what you say except for two areas. The first is 'what people are willing to pay, what the market wants, can Nikon make money on the lens, etc'. That kind of stuff. It's just not a call we can make IMO. The only call I think that we can make is in respect to what other dslr competitors are doing, under the assumption that they are also acting in their own perceived best self interest. IOW, if Canon can make money off a 24 1.4, or they feel it is a stategically necessary product, then well ... so should Nikon. If Nikon is competing with Canon, which is clearly setting the pace for the pro dslr market.

The second is in fact the Canon 24 1.4 again. I gave it as an example of a lens that could work well on a DX, in an earlier post. You really should look at its MTFs within the confines of the DX frame. The MTFs indicate Nikon could produce a $1200 lens that would rock. They wouldn't even have to label it DX, (although it could be brilliant marketing to do so). So we're not talking about Nikon needing to presell something exotic ... we're just talking about Nikon showing some committment to the upper end of its product line.

Anyway, take care, I think I'm about out on this :)

best, mark
 
Fast wide primes are a specialty item coveted by few. This board is probably a typical representation of the SLR lens market - a few prime nuts (no offense meant, edwardneal :-) but most of the rest of us don't know what we are missing by using zooms, are perfectly happy in the process, and our cameras' lens mounts thank us for it. Yeah, if you shoot war scenes you want 'em as fast as they get, but that is what, a market of 10 lenses per year with 25% mortality rate?

People who say they need a 28/1.4 to shoot their toddlers because they don't want to hurt their eyes need to have their heads examined if they shoot less than 30 frames a week, or find something else to do if they snap at their kids every second they are at home.

--
http://groovygeek.deviantart.com/gallery/
 
This board is probably a typical representation of the SLR lens market -
a few prime nuts (no offense meant, edwardneal :-) but most of the
rest of us don't know what we are missing by using zooms ...
I honestly don't think this forum is representative of the SLR lens market for Nikon. Most don't deal with primes (as you have mentioned), but also most don't use fast zooms either.

Many who come to this forum looking for information get sucked into the belief that they must have pro zooms and primes, regardless of whether they actually need them. The vast majority who don't visit the online photography forums are quite happy with their consumer grade zooms.
 
I know this is a popular forum "myth". I have never come across any documentation that the 28 f1.4 is hand made like the Noct aspherical.
 
I did. I bought two Nikon 28mm f/1.4's and several other great
fast primes in their currrent line-up: (28/50/85mm f/1.4, 105mm DC,
200mm f/2, 300mm f/2.8, 400mm f/2.8).
Hey me too again! All the same list, only I'm not so lucky to have
2 of the 28's! enjoy....
We seem to be in the same boat with the same collection of lenses. I wouldn't consider myself lucky for having two 28mm f/1.4's . One is a totally new lens (never used) just in case something happens to my precious original 28mm f/1.4 .

Your points are well taken. I'm sorry that I'm not a major supporter of continuing the Nikon 28mm f/1.4, but what I really want is a camera with a more sensitive sensor. I have a feeling that Nikon doesn't want to make faster cameras as that will kill the market for their huge primes. Though, more megapixels allows for more cropping , and that also kills the market for their supertele lenses and teleconverters.
 
Nikon isn't focus on high end segment anymore. The majority of its
user base don't really care for high ISO/thin DOF images. Can you
imagine buying a DX prime?? There is no market for that. The ones
who cared have already switched to Canon. You know who you are.
Keep waiting as it won't happen until the next generation of
photography advancements. Maybe Nikon execs will wake up. You are
confusing Film Nikon with the Digital Nikon. Completely different
company and focus!
....right!

I don't think your reasoning why there isn't focus (pun intended) on such lenses is logical, or correct.

Not all lenses in a lens line-up are money makers, some are $$$$ machines, others there to complete the range.

However I think you're right that marketing dept has taken over; & Nippon Kogaku has become Nikon Inc. :)

--
Photos speak louder than words.....let's all post more photos.
 
I agree with you. I'd rather see Nikon put their efforts into upgrading the lenses that need it with AFS and VR. If there were an inexpensive 20mm f1.4 or f1.8 DX lens I might be mildly interested, but it's really not that big a deal to me.

Welcome to the forum. Don't mind "classicman" and his loony ranting - he occasionally sneaks onto the rec room PC when his meds wear off. I'll have a word with the nurses.

--
http://www.pbase.com/gzillgi
http://www.pbase.com/gzillgi/wedding_portrait

 
Sigma do a nice 20mm F1.8 NAF-D

Or you could buy an M42 and use vintage glass or some of the Voightlander optics, that are also available in NAIS?

regards

Stephen
--
Prof Celebrity photographer
 
Thanks for your input.

I have an array of manual focus primes myself, eg: the great little AiS 28mmf2 (f2, not f2.8) which is IMO the best MF fast wide prime for low-light scenes;

but I do need AF, great performance at f1.4, & optics designed for low-light.

Thanks for your input.

--
Photos speak louder than words.....let's all post more photos.
 

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