Matt105483
Senior Member
The thought that people think they actually NEED this ... just scares me
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Time to let go?
- Thread starter Matt105483
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I understand where you are coming from. Yours is the prevailing view. I hate that view because it punishes the highest common denominator.
I can't yield at a stop sign. I can't program the GPS while the car is moving. I can't even buy a pack of cigarettes without some fool spending my money on a warning label. As if they know something no one else knows. It infuriates me. And I don't smoke.
Is that when you turn the camera on, a little electric latch is activated that closes the door. Which in turn can only be opened by shutting off the camera.
If your afraid of "missing" a great shot, and don't mind losing the buffer, you can switch the camera on and off, and the buffer is gone.
On the other hand, if you forget about the fact that your buffer is filling up, the lock would remind you.
The proper question is NOT why a company should design such a fool proof device, but rather, "How will this impact on me, who forgets nothing?"
Would such a design annoy you? Would it hinder your photography?
If not, then it works to prevent the operation of Murphy's law...
But in either event, you've convinced me that Canons solution is not a "fault," anymore than Nikons. This is merely an alternative design, that in my opinion works better.
Dave
If your afraid of "missing" a great shot, and don't mind losing the buffer, you can switch the camera on and off, and the buffer is gone.
On the other hand, if you forget about the fact that your buffer is filling up, the lock would remind you.
The proper question is NOT why a company should design such a fool proof device, but rather, "How will this impact on me, who forgets nothing?"
Would such a design annoy you? Would it hinder your photography?
If not, then it works to prevent the operation of Murphy's law...
But in either event, you've convinced me that Canons solution is not a "fault," anymore than Nikons. This is merely an alternative design, that in my opinion works better.
Dave
Matt105483
Senior Member
Seems a little excessive .. and people would complain the camera is jammed and they cant yank the card out
may be quiet failure prone also
Ahh, but Matt, I asked you if this solution would impinge on your ability to take images. In other words, this particular fail safe solution - will it hinder you? If not, than what the heck?Seems a little excessive .. and people would complain the camera is
jammed and they cant yank the card out
No, this kind of solution would have a high reliability factor. If it did break, it would break in the open position. Ther power would be applied against a spring, (which these doors already use anyway). It would not be electrically linked to the card or the camera electronics at all. It would be a direct connection to the on switch.
And this thread has caused me to re-examine my Nikon manual (BTW - thanks) and Nikon recomends shutting the camera off before changing cards.
Dave
Matt105483
Senior Member
The extra $30 for the camera to pay for the mechanism would hinder me from buying a new lens and thus taking nice picturesAhh, but Matt, I asked you if this solution would impinge on yourSeems a little excessive .. and people would complain the camera is
jammed and they cant yank the card out
ability to take images. In other words, this particular fail safe
solution - will it hinder you? If not, than what the heck?
Also if it fails and I cant get the card out it will hinder me even more
it can still fail .. the less unnessecary stuff is on the camera the better ...
Nikon people are smart
Joe0Bloggs
Veteran Member
I think you are actually one of those people those smart designers are trying to protect against.
Who says you can't yield at a stop sign--and what kind of idiot tries to program his GPS and drive at the same time. And yes, having the car moving counts as driving in any circumstance.
Who says you can't yield at a stop sign--and what kind of idiot tries to program his GPS and drive at the same time. And yes, having the car moving counts as driving in any circumstance.
Thom Hogan
Forum Pro
That's not at all what I suggested. Go back and read it more carefully. Simply, if the Writing to Card Indicator light is on, the door is locked from opening. When the Writing to Card Indicator is off, the door is unlocked. If you were really worried about the user needing to get into the card slot when the Indicator light is on (e.g., the camera writing from the buffer), you could have a manual override latch, though technically it should be a two-stage latch instead of just a button, or else you haven't achieved anything safe at all.
The funny thing about all this discussion is that we've been through this before with film. With some cameras you could simply open the back, exposing unrewound film to light and losing pictures. Some companies went to a two-stage system to avoid that happening accidentally. Nikon had a seriously complex system on their pro equipment, involving doors, buttons, AND levers, and you know, I never accidentally exposed a roll of film with it...
Recent Nikon bodies don't lose the buffer when you turn them off, which, by the way, is another error that a number of cameras make. On Nikon bodies, you CAN clear the buffer by holding the Delete button in while turning the camera off if that's what you want. But if the camera is still writing from the buffer when you turn the camera off, it will continue to write to the card until the buffer is empty, and only then turn the camera off. The On/Off switch on Nikon SLR and DSLR bodies has long been only an "advisory," not a hard switch.
--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D50, D70, D100, D200, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
Let's create a GPS Surgeon General and pay her to paste warning labels over our GPS screens. "Programming Proven in Laboratory Tests to be Hazardous to Your Health" Big red letters. So the screen's light under the sticker kind of makes them glow. Then we don't need stop signs to turn on the GPS programming function.
Thom Hogan
Forum Pro
Not really. Otherwise Canon would have a different design ;
I really don't see how my suggestion punishes anyone at all. Implemented correctly, good design: (1) saves users from accidental destructive actions; (2) doesn't get in the way; and (3) can be overridden. Current camera designs don't do that. They sometimes do #1 or #2, but not both and not all three. The goal for this particular thing should be all three. Indeed, YOU could be the test case for "doesn't get in the way."
Now you're crossing into a different realm of design, where one person's actions with a product can impact others. The reason you can't program a GPS while moving is that it seriously increases the likelihood that you'll harm others. We lose more people to auto accidents each year than we ever will in Iraq. Anyone designing something that INCREASES that problem is designing very poorly.
Personally, I don't care if you lose images from your camera (though as I designer it would still bother me if someone did lose images that didn't want to). But I DO care if you leave your lane and run into me. Different design chores have different criteria. Like I said, I don't think the Canon design is a "fault," just an error in recognizing and catering to the likely user of their product. Letting you run stop signs while programming your GPS would be a fault, I think ;
--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
editor, Nikon DSLR Report
author, Complete Guides: D50, D70, D100, D200, D1 series, D2h, D2x, S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com
Joe0Bloggs
Veteran Member
Great, so next time when you are cruising on the highway, thinking it's perfectly safe to program your GPS over that glowing red sign, you'll have nobody to blame when you don't see that construction sign and plow into that concrete divider at full speed.
But that poor worker working around that construction vehicle sure will have somebody to blame...
But that poor worker working around that construction vehicle sure will have somebody to blame...
Steven Noyes
Forum Pro
I am against Phil on this one completely.
Depends on the market. The basic tenant that you are thinking about is. "Protect the users data at all cost".
And I agree with this.
But there is a SERIOUS design error in that approach. Because these steps are repetitive and closely tied, once the action is started, it will, more often than not, be completed in less than a second. So once the door is open. STOP WRITING TO THE CARD. The card is coming out and it is MORE important to protect the data written than data not written in the buffer.
Then this should happen equally with Nikon/Pentax/Oly users.
And this is the problem with your thought process. The card is coming out and you HAVE TO STOP WRITING DATA. This is software 101 Thom.
I have never known someone to do this inadvertently. I know many that do it purposefully.
Quite the opposite. They actually have a MORE complex design that offers greater control and flexibility.
Kick there is, everyone I know has the audible sounds turned off....
Steven
--
---
2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti
Fall 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_fall_2006
Joe0Bloggs
Veteran Member
So make this one un-turn-offable...
Steven Noyes
Forum Pro
I don't want a sound.
I don't want a beep.
I WANT SAFE REMOVAL OF MY CARD!!!
What that means is instrumenting the door and to stop writing data to the card AS SOON AS YOU CAN when the door is opened. At this point, Canon is the ONLY DSLR maker providing a safe way of doing this. What they could do is provide an option to continue writing the buffer once a new card is installed.
Steven
--
---
2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti
Fall 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_fall_2006
I don't want a beep.
I WANT SAFE REMOVAL OF MY CARD!!!
What that means is instrumenting the door and to stop writing data to the card AS SOON AS YOU CAN when the door is opened. At this point, Canon is the ONLY DSLR maker providing a safe way of doing this. What they could do is provide an option to continue writing the buffer once a new card is installed.
Steven
--
---
2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti
Fall 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_fall_2006
Matt105483
Senior Member
Now that would be a great idea! I wonder why they havent implemented it ... probably too difficult to implement in the menu system of the camera ...
cheers
Matt
But at least he didn't die from ignoring the labels on his cigarettes. This works our perfectly. We should do it.
Joe0Bloggs
Veteran Member
Why do so many Canon shooters take these long bursts and then can't wait to have those images actually stored to the card before changing cards.
Makes you wonder why they took those pictures in the first place.
Or how often do you actually use this 'feature'?
Makes you wonder why they took those pictures in the first place.
Or how often do you actually use this 'feature'?
I don't want a sound.
I don't want a beep.
I WANT SAFE REMOVAL OF MY CARD!!!
What that means is instrumenting the door and to stop writing data
to the card AS SOON AS YOU CAN when the door is opened. At this
point, Canon is the ONLY DSLR maker providing a safe way of doing
this. What they could do is provide an option to continue writing
the buffer once a new card is installed.
Steven
--
---
2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti
Fall 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_fall_2006
Joe0Bloggs
Veteran Member
BTW I do agree that safe removal of the card while the camera is still writing is a desirable feature.
But just opening the card door doesn't necessarily mean that the user wants to dump all the pictures in his buffer. Maybe YOU have made a feature of it, treating the card door as a 'card dump' button.
I think Canon has something over the competitors that can be worked into a real feature if they made it an actual door lock, with a C.Fn feature to let you open the door anyway to flush the buffer. (or just add a 'hold buffer' feature, as you said)
But just opening the card door doesn't necessarily mean that the user wants to dump all the pictures in his buffer. Maybe YOU have made a feature of it, treating the card door as a 'card dump' button.
I think Canon has something over the competitors that can be worked into a real feature if they made it an actual door lock, with a C.Fn feature to let you open the door anyway to flush the buffer. (or just add a 'hold buffer' feature, as you said)
Makes you wonder why they took those pictures in the first place.
Or how often do you actually use this 'feature'?
I don't want a sound.
I don't want a beep.
I WANT SAFE REMOVAL OF MY CARD!!!
What that means is instrumenting the door and to stop writing data
to the card AS SOON AS YOU CAN when the door is opened. At this
point, Canon is the ONLY DSLR maker providing a safe way of doing
this. What they could do is provide an option to continue writing
the buffer once a new card is installed.
Steven
--
---
2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti
Fall 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_fall_2006
Steven Noyes
Forum Pro
When doing surf shots. I could see a new set coming that was going to be better than what I just got. So I (voluntarily) dumped the buffer since the card was almost full.
If I did fast moving stuff more, I am sure I would have used it many more times.
Steven
--
---
2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti
Fall 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_fall_2006
If I did fast moving stuff more, I am sure I would have used it many more times.
Steven
--
---
2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti
Fall 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_fall_2006
Steven Noyes
Forum Pro
What do the others do? Let you open the door, card continues to write, you pull card while FAT is being updated. Opps.
Steven
--
---
2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti
Fall 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_fall_2006
Steven
--
---
2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti
Fall 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_fall_2006
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