Confirmed D60 to replace D30 at PMA

Brian Hansen · Jan 25, 2002

Gee thanks Matt, what are you a mind reader? I was just looking
at a 1280 at lunch and will be buying one this weekend. I've read
a ton of posts about the D30 and this printer and the concensus is
that it does just fine. I think I am still going to wait. I have the
luxury or the curse of not having to do this for a living. As long
as I have archival ink and decent prints I will be happy. Most of
the people that see my prints don't have the "eye" anyway.

Who knows - I love technology. If everything about the original
post is true - better AF, 6 mp, CMOS, price etc... AND there are
rave reviews on this and other forums - I will probably upgrade.

Brian

Matt Kim said:
Matt

Brian Hansen said:

That's it - I'm done reading posts about this subject - only adds
to the ulcer factor (^:

Brian

Andrew Grant said:

Matt Kim said:

Every heard of Film? I'm using an original EOS 650 which is
compatible with all the EF Lenses.

Click to expand...

I gave up on film a while ago and I don't own either a film scanner
or film based EOS body. I suspect many D30 owners are in the same
position.

Member said:

I was pretty lucky to get what I got for my D30. I've seen
D30's in the local classifieds for $1700 with grip, they are only
going to drop further.

Click to expand...

Selling on Ebay seems to be the best bet. There is always someone
who will overpay.

Member said:

I also have a backup G2...

Click to expand...

I had an Oly C3000Z but I sold it when I bought the D30. I decided
I didn't like consumer digitals.Too slow and the images are too
noisy.
However, the D30 would make a great backup body to either the 1D or
D60.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Joo · Jan 25, 2002

I wouldn't count on USB 2.0 being significantly faster than Firewire. There is a difference between theoretical maximums and real world performance. I haven't read into the USB 2.0 or Firewire protocol specs. So I don't know if there are any inherent inefficiencies in the protocol. For example, there used to be limitations on a SCSI chain when mixing and matching verious versions of SCSI. Generally, the performance on the SCSI chain had to be degraded to the slowest device on the chain. This might rear its head with USB 2.0 also, I don't know. If it does then you need to be aware that if you want anything above USB 1.1 speeds, you probably shouldn't mix and match USB devices. Just saying this is a possibility and not that it is a real issue.

Joo

Mark B. said:
Richard Lewisohn said:

I presume the D30 replacement willl have Firewire out. Could they
really stick with USB?

Click to expand...

It could be USB 2.0, which apparently is faster. From what I've
been reading, the next generation USB is 480mbps while firewire is
400mbps.

Mark

--Canon D-30 & PowerShot S100Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture.

Matt Kim · Jan 25, 2002

Al Goldis said:
Matt Kim said:

Matt

Al Goldis said:

Michael Martin said:

Al Goldis said:

Is it just me, or would that announcement/availability be a
spectacular blunder?

Announcing the discontinuance and replacement in Feb. but not being
able to deliver the replacement until May or June would virtually
kill all sales for at least three months.

Click to expand...

You were expecting better from Canon????

Click to expand...

I was getting accustomed to Canon hosing its users but if that's
the case, then they would be hosing themselves just as much.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Greg M · Jan 25, 2002

Matt Kim said:
I took a gamble and sold my D30 a few weeks ago... in the mean
time I'll save money toward a purchase of a 1D. By the time I'm ready,
the 'replacement' should be announced, at that time I can make
a decision regarding a 1D or 'D60' purchase without having to deal
with selling a discontinued D30.

I'd sell NOW if you're even contemplating an upgrade.

Matt

NO!! Don't sell. New models are not always better. Read further in this thread and if some of this is true it sounds like the picture quality could suffer, smaller pixels - more noise. If this does happen you'll wish you still had your D30. If it does happen that the D30 has a better picture quality then that will help the resale value.

Do you remember the "New Coke"? Better to hold on to it then to wish you had.

I had a post earlier today that stated my reasoning for not waiting til after PMA to purchase. It must have made some sense because I received no flaming over it.

Brian Hansen · Jan 25, 2002

Andrew Grant said:
I suspect that in a year a used D30 will not be a $2000 camera. It
will probably be closer to a $1000 camera which is not much more
expensive than Matt's G2 or an EOS 3.

This is a good point but if you buy the D60 when it is new as opposed
to 6 months down the road you will also pay more. Maybe not enough
to offset the lowering price on the D30 but close. When the D30 came
out it was over $3000. Now a little over a year they are $1900. The
D60 will also come down with time.

Andrew Grant27981 said:
For me, a consumer digicam or a film camera is not an acceptable
backup. Consumer digicams are too expensive for thier performance
and a film camera would require the purchase of a scanner
($1000-$1600) plus the film camera itself ($250-$2000).

Acutally, I plan to hold out on a new body while I complete my lens
collection (16-35 on order, 100/2.8 macro and 300/4 IS planned).

My plan exactly!

Brian

Andrew Grant27981 · Jan 25, 2002

stripes said:
Member said:

I gave up on film a while ago and I don't own either a film scanner
or film based EOS body. I suspect many D30 owners are in the same
position.

Click to expand...

New Rebel's are $200ish, the ELAN 7 is $500ish. Will you make it
back if you sell the D30 now before the price falls? Maybe, if you
don't spend too much on film and processing in the next few months.

This assumes you already own a scanner. If you do, you probably already have a film body. If you don't, you will probably pay almost as much for the film body and scanner as you would get for your D30, perhaps even more.
If I was buying a $1000-$1600 scanner, I would probably buy at least the EOS 3.

Member said:
The safest thing is to hang onto the D30, since you know the
maximum cost of that (approx the current resale value of hte D30 --
assuming the D60 makes it's resale drop to zero, likely more like
half that though), and you won't be "stuck" buying back a D30 if
the D60 doesn't meet your needs, nor will you be without a DSLR if
the D60 takes longer to get to market then expected.

If it drops to half, why bother selling it at all.

Member said:
The biggest potential payoff is to sell now though.

For me, I would rather have another few months with my D30 then the
extra money. In fact depending on how the D60 is I may rather have
years... (but I expect the D60 would actually be better then the
D30 for most D30 users, including me)

If we didn't like using our D30s we would probably have sold them already. I paid $2500 nine months ago so I have already lost at least $500 maybe $1000. I can't see losing more than anotehr $1000 in the next nine months.

Lin Evans · Jan 25, 2002

Al Goldis said:
Is it just me, or would that announcement/availability be a
spectacular blunder?

Announcing the discontinuance and replacement in Feb. but not being
able to deliver the replacement until May or June would virtually
kill all sales for at least three months.

It wouldn't make any sense at all, nor does is make any sense to "replace" a camera like the D30 with a 6 megapixel "clone". I'm really surprised how speculation has run rampant from one post from someone who's "pro-shop" said ........ It's like 4th hand information which may have no relevance whatsoever to reality.

Why on earth would Canon produce a 6 megapixel prosumer level camera at around $3500 when the competition (Kodak DCS-760) is getting around double that? Canon's track record has never been one of extreme discounting and high volume/low price versus per capita profit. To keep credibility among professional photographers, it's highly unlikely that they would do this. It would make much more sense to produce a professional level six or greater megapixel instrument to compete with the D1X and DCS-760 and sell on features rather than on price.

Lin-- http://204.42.233.244

Brian Hansen · Jan 25, 2002

The more I read the more I agree with this. If the money in my
pocket is burning holes - I'll just buy some more "L" glass that will
make my D30 that much better.

Brian

Greg M said:
NO!! Don't sell. New models are not always better. Read further
in this thread and if some of this is true it sounds like the
picture quality could suffer, smaller pixels - more noise. If this
does happen you'll wish you still had your D30. If it does happen
that the D30 has a better picture quality then that will help the
resale value.

Do you remember the "New Coke"? Better to hold on to it then to
wish you had.

I had a post earlier today that stated my reasoning for not waiting
til after PMA to purchase. It must have made some sense because I
received no flaming over it.

Peter G · Jan 25, 2002

And how much did that cost?

At that point in time it was probably done because they did not have proper silicon design tools to let them design it as one chip (just couldn't do something that large). It makes no sense now that they can.

I didn't say it was impossible. But it is not a economically viable solution.

There might be a tiny cost saving making 2 half size sensors versus 1 full size, but it will totally overwhelmed by the extra issues to making them work together.

Lin Evans said:
Peter G said:

Not going to happen. It would be a nightmare trying to make two
sensors work together.

Click to expand...

It "might" be a nightmare, but it's been done more than once. Kodak
did it in 1995 with the 6 megapixel DCS-460, etc.

Lin
--
http://204.42.233.244

ADC · Jan 25, 2002

p2g,

I agree with you. Although this "news" of a new DSLR is very exciting, I would rather concentrate on improving my photography skills with the D30 than "upgrading". The D30 is a robust enough DSLR that will let you capture just about everything you can imagine under most normal circumstances. The picture quality of this camera is just short of a miracle in my book.

ADC

Powder2glass said:
The D30 is an easy camera to be content with. Even it's slow AF is
easy to deal with if you anticipate it and look for areas with more
contrast to focus on. For more contemplative photography it has few
issues to push you towards something new. You have a great
perspective from this standpoint as the most important thing is
getting to shoot and improve so you can make the most out of what
you have. There a plenty of people in this world that could
outshoot me with a much less sophisticated camera, for the most
part it's notthe camera that is limiting the quality of my photos.

p2g

Michael Martin · Jan 25, 2002

Lin Evans said:
Al Goldis said:

Is it just me, or would that announcement/availability be a
spectacular blunder?

Announcing the discontinuance and replacement in Feb. but not being
able to deliver the replacement until May or June would virtually
kill all sales for at least three months.

Click to expand...

It wouldn't make any sense at all, nor does is make any sense to
"replace" a camera like the D30 with a 6 megapixel "clone". I'm
really surprised how speculation has run rampant from one post from
someone who's "pro-shop" said ........ It's like 4th hand
information which may have no relevance whatsoever to reality.

Why on earth would Canon produce a 6 megapixel prosumer level
camera at around $3500 when the competition (Kodak DCS-760) is
getting around double that? Canon's track record has never been one
of extreme discounting and high volume/low price versus per capita
profit. To keep credibility among professional photographers, it's
highly unlikely that they would do this. It would make much more
sense to produce a professional level six or greater megapixel
instrument to compete with the D1X and DCS-760 and sell on features
rather than on price.

Lin
--
http://204.42.233.244

Canon's film cameras and now digital cameras are usually less expensive than Nikons. Don't ever expect anything to cost as much as Kodak's pro cameras. Just because the DCS 760 cost twice as much as the D30, doesn't mean it should cost more.

Andrew Grant27981 · Jan 25, 2002

Brian Hansen said:
Andrew Grant said:

I suspect that in a year a used D30 will not be a $2000 camera. It
will probably be closer to a $1000 camera which is not much more
expensive than Matt's G2 or an EOS 3.

Click to expand...

This is a good point but if you buy the D60 when it is new as opposed
to 6 months down the road you will also pay more. Maybe not enough
to offset the lowering price on the D30 but close. When the D30 came
out it was over $3000. Now a little over a year they are $1900. The
D60 will also come down with time.

I agree. A patient person could end up owning both a D30 and a D60 having spent the same amount of money as a less patient person who sells his D30 as soon as the D60s are available.

Brian Hansen said:
Brian Hansen said:

For me, a consumer digicam or a film camera is not an acceptable
backup. Consumer digicams are too expensive for thier performance
and a film camera would require the purchase of a scanner
($1000-$1600) plus the film camera itself ($250-$2000).

Actually, I plan to hold out on a new body while I complete my lens
collection (16-35 on order, 100/2.8 macro and 300/4 IS planned).

Click to expand...

My plan exactly!

Its a good plan

Peter G · Jan 25, 2002

If this were true then even cheap lenes would be overkill on the D30 with its giant 10um square sensors. But I don't think we are seeing that.

How about if its really equivalent to about 100 pixels/mm? that would be something like 8.8 MP, which seems reasonable to me.

6MP photoCD scans that I have seen, already are losing detail in film grain.

Full frame 6 to 8mp, for me, so I don't have to buy L glass to feed it.

Peter

JCDoss said:
Peter G said:

Its not just noise. Lenses are designed with film in mind I think
numbers I saw was a good lens resolving around 100lines/mm. If a
much denser sensor is used, it will be wasted by current lens
technology.

Click to expand...

If you're using 100lp/mm as a goal, I think the maximum pixel size
to reach that goal would be around 5um square. Even if the sensor
in the "D60" stays the same size, 6MP would require that pixels
measure 7um square. This would be something like a 30MP full frame
(24x36) sensor, if you added it all up. So, there's room to wiggle.

OTOH, I'm with you. I'd ultimately prefer a 6-10MP output assuming
that was a noiseless output. Most of us are doing fine with 3MP!

JCDoss

Lin Evans · Jan 25, 2002

Peter G said:
And how much did that cost?

At that point in time it was probably done because they did not
have proper silicon design tools to let them design it as one chip
(just couldn't do something that large). It makes no sense now that
they can.

I didn't say it was impossible. But it is not a economically viable
solution.
There might be a tiny cost saving making 2 half size sensors versus
1 full size, but it will totally overwhelmed by the extra issues
to making them work together.

Lin Evans wrote:

It cost lots - I paid nearl $30K for mine, but it's also been done in the past three years by Minolta on their digital SLR using two 1.5 megapixel sensors, so it's not an impossible scenario. The larger the wafer, the more probability for areas of fault, so the higher the production costs per chip. As for making them work together, it's not as difficult as it might seem - sort of like panorama stitching in firmware with precision mapping.

I'm not suggesting that they would be likely to do this, probably bayer mapping and correction for dead pixel areas would be more likely, but it all depends on lots of factors and is, at this time, total speculation. I'm sure not convinced that this informaion is correct. Making a six megapixel "clone" of the D30 which sold for around $3500 would be counterproductive from many perspectives.

Lin-- http://204.42.233.244

Ben Horne · Jan 25, 2002

The price for used ones will drop..... assuming the demand dwindles. Once the camera is tough to find (no new ones, uses ones are uncommon) I imagine the price will go back up again for the used market. Not a huge amount, but It won't continue to decrease until it's in the hundreds. I'm guessing it'll stabilize in the mid to low thousand range, then it will go up a bit more with time. I say this because it happened with a camera I used to own: Sony DSC-D770. When word came out that it was discountinued, the prices fell in stores as they were trying to clear them out. Several months later, a few started popping up on ebay, and the prices were rather high because the supply dropped, but demand was still there in the used market.

I'm holding onto my D30. I can't afford to upgrade right now, but even if I could, I'm going to wait until the price on the 2nd generation D30 drops. The D30 does perfectly fine 8x10 prints for me now, and that's the biggest realistic printing I do.

Take Care,
Ben Horne

http://www.benhorne.com

Matt Kim said:
I was pretty lucky to get what I got for my D30. I've seen
D30's in the local classifieds for $1700 with grip, they are only
going to drop further.

I also have a backup G2...

Matt

Andrew Grant said:

Matt Kim said:

I took a gamble and sold my D30 a few weeks ago... in the mean
time I'll save money toward a purchase of a 1D. By the time I'm ready,
the 'replacement' should be announced, at that time I can make
a decision regarding a 1D or 'D60' purchase without having to deal
with selling a discontinued D30.

I'd sell NOW if you're even contemplating an upgrade.

Click to expand...

Assuming I was looking to upgrade (which I am not), how am I
supposed to take photographs while I am weaiting 4-6 months to get
hold of this new camera. All those EOS lenses and strobes won't
help very much without a camera body.

My recommendation is to hold on to your D30 if you already have
one. If a D60 wonder camera does materialize, buy it in the fall or
early next year. Hold on to your D30 and use it as a backup.

Click to expand...

JCDoss · Jan 25, 2002

Andrew Grant said:
Andrew Grant27981 said:

Andrew Grant27981 said:

Actually, I plan to hold out on a new body while I complete my lens
collection (16-35 on order, 100/2.8 macro and 300/4 IS planned).

Click to expand...

My plan exactly!

Click to expand...

Its a good plan

I see that amidst the broo-ha-ha, a few signs of intelligence remain. Rather than rushing out to place orders for equipment that is heretofore unannounced and the nature of which is pure speculation, one photographer intends to increase his lens collection and become practiced in photography using tools that already exist. Bravo. I'm with ya.

JCDoss

----------

Taking orders now! Hurry, only room for a few more! Send your checks today! I'll tell you what you bought later! Don't let the equipment you currently own become obsolete! In fact, it IS obsolete already! Hurry! Get something new! Send checks to me immediately! I'll send you something in return!

Peter G · Jan 25, 2002

At $28000 they could do crazy things like get two sensors working.

Peter G said:
At the other end of the digital camera spectrum is the Kodak DCS460. Built into a Nikon N90 body, the DCS460 costs $27,995 and can take pictures with a maximum resolution of 3060x2036 pixels.

Peter G said:
At that point in time it was probably done because they did not
have proper silicon design tools to let them design it as one chip
(just couldn't do something that large). It makes no sense now that
they can.

I didn't say it was impossible. But it is not a economically viable
solution.
There might be a tiny cost saving making 2 half size sensors versus
1 full size, but it will totally overwhelmed by the extra issues
to making them work together.

Lin Evans said:

Peter G said:

Not going to happen. It would be a nightmare trying to make two
sensors work together.

Click to expand...

It "might" be a nightmare, but it's been done more than once. Kodak
did it in 1995 with the 6 megapixel DCS-460, etc.

Lin
--
http://204.42.233.244

Click to expand...

Michael Martin · Jan 25, 2002

JCDoss said:
Andrew Grant said:

Member said:

Member said:

Actually, I plan to hold out on a new body while I complete my lens
collection (16-35 on order, 100/2.8 macro and 300/4 IS planned).

Click to expand...

My plan exactly!

Click to expand...

Its a good plan

Click to expand...

I see that amidst the broo-ha-ha, a few signs of intelligence
remain. Rather than rushing out to place orders for equipment that
is heretofore unannounced and the nature of which is pure
speculation, one photographer intends to increase his lens
collection and become practiced in photography using tools that
already exist. Bravo. I'm with ya.

JCDoss

How many lenses do we really need JC?

Michael Martin
http://www.michaelmartinphotography.com

Member said:
----------
Taking orders now! Hurry, only room for a few more! Send your
checks today! I'll tell you what you bought later! Don't let the
equipment you currently own become obsolete! In fact, it IS
obsolete already! Hurry! Get something new! Send checks to me
immediately! I'll send you something in return!

Lin Evans · Jan 25, 2002

Michael Martin said:
Lin Evans said:

Al Goldis said:

Is it just me, or would that announcement/availability be a
spectacular blunder?

Announcing the discontinuance and replacement in Feb. but not being
able to deliver the replacement until May or June would virtually
kill all sales for at least three months.

Click to expand...

It wouldn't make any sense at all, nor does is make any sense to
"replace" a camera like the D30 with a 6 megapixel "clone". I'm
really surprised how speculation has run rampant from one post from
someone who's "pro-shop" said ........ It's like 4th hand
information which may have no relevance whatsoever to reality.

Why on earth would Canon produce a 6 megapixel prosumer level
camera at around $3500 when the competition (Kodak DCS-760) is
getting around double that? Canon's track record has never been one
of extreme discounting and high volume/low price versus per capita
profit. To keep credibility among professional photographers, it's
highly unlikely that they would do this. It would make much more
sense to produce a professional level six or greater megapixel
instrument to compete with the D1X and DCS-760 and sell on features
rather than on price.

Lin
--
http://204.42.233.244

Click to expand...

Canon's film cameras and now digital cameras are usually less
expensive than Nikons. Don't ever expect anything to cost as much
as Kodak's pro cameras. Just because the DCS 760 cost twice as
much as the D30, doesn't mean it should cost more.

It doesn't make sense from a marketing perspective and doesn't follow Canon's past record. Did they put a cut rate price on the 1D and price it below the D1H? Of course not because they could compete on features. Why start low and then discount? Marketing 101 says you price your products appropriately considering the competition. Many would assume there was something wrong with a camera which was priced at half their competition's MSRP, especially when selling into the SLR market. I know I would be highly suspicious if they were to market something like the DCS-760 for D30 prices.....

Lin -- http://204.42.233.244

yali · Jan 25, 2002

If it will be in Orlando, I can go to the PMA and see for myself. Please

Anybody knows where and when ?

THanks

Powder2glass said:
I recieved a call back from my local Canon Pro shop yesterday in
regard to my D60 questions. My contact spoke to a regional and a
national sales manager and they both confirmed that Canon will be
discontinuing the D30 offically at PMA and replacing it with the
D60 at the same price (likely to mean same list price) with planned
availability in May or June. They also confirmed that it will be
6mp CMOS but didn't give any further details.

Not surprising except for the price but very interesting none the
less. One could reasonably specualte that this would also mean a
similar form factor, lower lens multiplier, 3-4 fps, & better AF
almost has to be an assumption. If the new low end slr rumors are
true it may also mean a more EOS 3 like body but I'd be a bit
surprised if they went that far at a "D30 Price" since that is a
big price gap but not so big of a feature gap for
non-journalist/actions types.

p2g

--yali

Confirmed D60 to replace D30 at PMA

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