Pat Trev
Leading Member
Just to further confuse this situation...how does the 400/f5.6 stack up against these two lenses, albeit with no IS?
Pat
Pat
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300mm F/4L IS vs 100-400mm F/4.5-5.6L IS for bird photos - HELP!
- Thread starter Gus Stangeland
- Start date
excal
Veteran Member
Yes, an older version, without IS too. But both 500's are in another class compared with the 300/4 and 400/5.6. That's why!
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Excal
Daniella68313
Forum Pro
you seem to be really keen on image sharpness..if so then why don't you buy the 400mm F5.6 L? it is tack sharp wide open..
the 300mm F4 is nice but it will never give you the same level of sharpness with a TC than the 400mm prime.
That is why I went for that lens..I wanted the best possible sharpness that my sensor could deliver with the lens wide open..and that lens deliver.
But it appears
that the 300mm wiht a TC is worse than the 100-400mm and I think it is to be expected. you seem to have a pretty good 100-400 also..
Did I
honestly..how can you expect a lens with a teleconverter to perform better than a lens like the 100-400 with a native 400mm range?
I had 2 of the 300mm F4, one IS and one non IS..the non IS was a tad sharper but both needed to be stoped down to F5.6 to get the best sharpness and both did not give me such level of sharpness that I get with my 400mm prime.
so my experience with it is similar to yours.
there are none..especialy if you are into small birds where all the focal count..300mm just does NOT cut it and you're going to be stuck with a TC almost permanently. not good.
But should I get another one? Or should I get
yep..I think at this point you owe it to yourself to try the 400mm prime. then decide.
Or is the
that will also help you figure this thing out.. but honestly..300mm is too short for birds.
I woudl return the 300mm lens and try your 100-400 with the new camera..if you are still not happy, get the 400mm F5.6 L and you can get something like this..100% crop, 400mm F5.6 L wide open with the standard Tamron 2x tc:
his best shots there are with the 500mm F4.5 L. that's a very sharp lens.
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Gus Stangeland
Senior Member
Thanks, Daniella! I've admired your photos over the years so I really respect your knowledge on these lenses. That is a fantastic shot of what looks like a White-throated Sparrow!
I'm wondering if I should go ahead and order a 400f5.6 no-IS right now, while I still have the 300f4 IS. Then maybe I could compare the two against each other to decide which one to keep. I have to return the 300 by Dec 1. So I could have both for 2 or 3 days maybe, next week.
I realize that I would have a TC on the 300 almost all the time because 300 is too short for birds. But I don't mind that. It seems to focus very quickly. In fact, it focuses quickly with stacked TCs. I have the Canon II and the cheap Tamron. Either one works fine by itself and they work well stacked also.
This is really stretching my wallet and making me nervous. I'm single so I don't have to account for my spending to anyone, but I feel like I'm overextended. I'll be glad when it all comes together.
Thanks again, Daniella. When I get the XTi and have some comparison data, I'll start a new post and share what I found out.
Gus
I'm wondering if I should go ahead and order a 400f5.6 no-IS right now, while I still have the 300f4 IS. Then maybe I could compare the two against each other to decide which one to keep. I have to return the 300 by Dec 1. So I could have both for 2 or 3 days maybe, next week.
I realize that I would have a TC on the 300 almost all the time because 300 is too short for birds. But I don't mind that. It seems to focus very quickly. In fact, it focuses quickly with stacked TCs. I have the Canon II and the cheap Tamron. Either one works fine by itself and they work well stacked also.
This is really stretching my wallet and making me nervous. I'm single so I don't have to account for my spending to anyone, but I feel like I'm overextended. I'll be glad when it all comes together.
Thanks again, Daniella. When I get the XTi and have some comparison data, I'll start a new post and share what I found out.
Gus
you seem to be really keen on image sharpness..if so then why don't
you buy the 400mm F5.6 L? it is tack sharp wide open..
the 300mm F4 is nice but it will never give you the same level of
sharpness with a TC than the 400mm prime.
That is why I went for that lens..I wanted the best possible
sharpness that my sensor could deliver with the lens wide open..and
that lens deliver.
But it appears
that the 300mm wiht a TC is worse than the 100-400mm and I think it
is to be expected. you seem to have a pretty good 100-400 also..
Did I
honestly..how can you expect a lens with a teleconverter to perform
better than a lens like the 100-400 with a native 400mm range?
I had 2 of the 300mm F4, one IS and one non IS..the non IS was a
tad sharper but both needed to be stoped down to F5.6 to get the
best sharpness and both did not give me such level of sharpness
that I get with my 400mm prime.
so my experience with it is similar to yours.
there are none..especialy if you are into small birds where all the
focal count..300mm just does NOT cut it and you're going to be
stuck with a TC almost permanently. not good.
But should I get another one? Or should I get
yep..I think at this point you owe it to yourself to try the 400mm
prime. then decide.
Or is the
that will also help you figure this thing out.. but honestly..300mm
is too short for birds.
I woudl return the 300mm lens and try your 100-400 with the new
camera..if you are still not happy, get the 400mm F5.6 L and you
can get something like this..100% crop, 400mm F5.6 L wide open with
the standard Tamron 2x tc:
his best shots there are with the 500mm F4.5 L. that's a very
sharp lens.
--
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
Daniella68313
Forum Pro
yes that would be a good thing to do, if you buy it from a store that don't have restocking fee. at least that way you could compare them for image quality wide open and compare the 300mm with the tc wide open vs the 400mm prime. also you coudl compare the focusing speed of each option and if you really need IS or if you can live without it.
yes and I suspect that you would also have a tc often on the 400mm, like I do. 560mm is often welcome with birds.
But I don't mind that. It seems
yes that's another thing you could compare. seems that some 400mm prime work better with TC than some others. I have read that some people cannot get it to AF. that is mostly dependant on the camera I think but might have to do with the lens itself or the TC, not sure. so that is a good thing to experiment with.
sure.. I know the feeling when I bought the 400mm F5.6 and put that on my CC.. I was really short on money.
that is why I said buy it from a place where you can return without hassle and restocking fee.
yes please do.
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Daniella68313
Forum Pro
you already have that..this is a resize web size image, not a 100% crop. your images would be just as sharp if resized and sharpened the same way.
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makofoto
Leading Member
One thing I found when using IS, is that one has to give it a moment to work. If you just push through the release, the IS doesn't have time to do it's thing.
Daniella68313
Forum Pro
well, supposed that the newest 100-400 zoom are better quality now. the olders ones had more problems.
I think you maybe ok with buying a new lens nowaday...
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http://www.pbase.com/zylen
makofoto
Leading Member
I sent my new 100/400 back a couple of weeks ago and replaced it with a 300/4. I wasn't happy with the zooms IQ. After this weekends race I'll know whether I was being too critical. The 300 did much better in the dollar bill test ...
Daniella68313
Forum Pro
what about it with with a 1.4x tc wide open vs the 100-400 bare lens wide open? what I find silly is when people buy the 300mm F4 and use it permanently with a 1.4x tc because they do birds mostly.
I do that with my 400mm F5.6 L but that'S only because I don,t have the budget to buy a 500mm f4 and that this is also too big lens..but those who pic the 300mm f4 for birds do have plenty of other choice..I think this is pointless to buy a lens and always be stuck to use a TC if one does not need the F4 aperture.
I will probably get the 300mm F2.8 L and will put a 2x tc on it for birds..but that is because I really need the F2.8 speed often for wildlife as well. if one only do birds, the 300mm f4 is really not the best lens..too slow too short, unless one can get really close to birds.
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Gus Stangeland
Senior Member
Well, Daniella, then I might be one of the silly ones. If I keep the 300f4 IS, that's how I will use it. But why not get the 400f5.6 and not have to use a TC, you ask? It's because I don't think I can live without IS. Also the 300f4 IS with 1.4x TC gives me 420mm, 5% more than the 400f5.6. Not a lot, but with birds, every little thing helps. Also I can add a 2nd 1.4x TC and now I'll have 588mm compared to adding ONE 1.4x TC on the 400f5.6 which gives 560mm. The 300f4 IS lens I have seems to focus very well with stacked TC's.
But, I'm still not sure - I can't see any use for a 300mm lens. Over the thousands of pictures I have taken with my 100-400 there's only a very small number that were NOT taken at full zoom. The only reason I would zoom back is for large birds in flight that come right over my head. Then it's really nice to be able to zoom wide and not clip the bird. In these cases the 300mm probably wouldn't do any good either. So I'm still struggling over this choice, but I'm leaning toward the fact that I can't live without IS.
Well, I could say the same - I do that with my 300f4 IS because I can't afford to buy a 500mm. I guess there is NO 400mm IS, right?
But you lose two stops with the 2x, right? So what does it end up being?
Still not sure...
Gus
Believe it or not 300/1.4 (mine not yours) with 1.4TC wide open is likely sharper than 100-400 wide open. If you want to compare images again I'll be happy to comply.
I use 300/4 with 1.4 TC for the same reason. I don't have the budget to buy 500/4 IS and I can't buy 400/5.6 IS at any cost. .
Same reason for 300/4 when you need the speed that 400/5.6 or 100-400 won't do. I don't understand your comment about it being too slow. Where is the faster $1200 alternative?
Every lens has it's place let's not to think your way is the only way and people are silly if they don't do the same.
Daniella68313
Forum Pro
yes, with birds everything help..why I can use a 1.4x TC as well and get 560mm..
with a 300mm you are quite limited. as with a 1.4x tc you are only up to 420mm and you are already impaired with a TC.
Also I can add a 2nd 1.4x TC and now I'll have 588mm
oki..what's the image quality of that wide open?
yeah..but I don,t see image degradation on my 400mm F5.6 L wide open with the Tamron 1.4x..can you say the same with that stack wide open?
very well? at F11? I seriously doubt it
voila.
The only
you'd be better off with a 100-400mm..
there is the 100-400 IS though.
a 600mm F5.6. that is pretty cool to me. now I have 560mm f8.
but the most important factor for me is that I would have a 300mm F2.8 lens. F2.8 for my wildlie shots is most needed.
if I was only into birds, like I said, that would not be a good option, but nowaday I need a fast wildlife lens just as much as I need a birding lens.
the 400mm F5.6 is way too slow for wildlife, at least in my situation..and so is F4.
but if I was only into birds..I would try to get the longest possible lens I could get..and 300mm is not that one.
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netgarden
Forum Pro
Thanks, thats a full size photo of the hummer, cropped down a ton. About the teleconverters, I tried stacking a 1,4x tam, and a Promaster 2x, and that was only foucing in manual focus. Did not like the results. I considered just getting a better 2x, but not sure if I'd like the results. So I think I have made the decision to buy another 1.4x Tamron, and that way I have more uses for it too. I'll stack them, and expect they will only work well in bright light. I don't like the look of stacked teles either, so won't use it much. Today I'm going to order the extra Tam here, seems the cheapest price: [$119 in stores +tx]
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260053863889&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:12
I don't always have perfect focus regardless. As you know with the 300f4 most targets are pretty far away so I think thats a problem too. But I didn't want anything heavier. I wonder if you had it calibrated if it's do better? I do get OOF shots like yours, maybe 0ne in 5, but more often with teleconverter, which is why I don't use it in situations where it's a 'one chance only' situation.
I use the 20D, hand held. Thinking of getting a monopod or shoulder brace with a slik ballhead gun. Still not sure what I'd use most.
Good luck!
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Linda~ http://sweetlight.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/362
You don't take a photograph. You ask, quietly, to borrow it. Author Unknown
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260053863889&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:12
I don't always have perfect focus regardless. As you know with the 300f4 most targets are pretty far away so I think thats a problem too. But I didn't want anything heavier. I wonder if you had it calibrated if it's do better? I do get OOF shots like yours, maybe 0ne in 5, but more often with teleconverter, which is why I don't use it in situations where it's a 'one chance only' situation.
I use the 20D, hand held. Thinking of getting a monopod or shoulder brace with a slik ballhead gun. Still not sure what I'd use most.
Good luck!
--
Linda~ http://sweetlight.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/362
Daniella68313
Forum Pro
you can surely check out the thread from Liquidstone showing his 100-400mm. the new ones seem to perform better.
I would love to see your 100% crops with the 300mm F4 wide open with a 1.4x tc, sure.
what if you need more reach than 420mm?
there are none and that is why I would only recommand a 300mm f4 or F2.8 lens for those who also need the speed. Usualy with birds F5.6 is not a problem..it is with wildlife though.
for birds usualy the reach and image quality is more important then IS or speed. but again that depends on each person situation.
but my comment was more for those who buy a 300mm f4 IS and use it permanently with a 1.4x tc..that's what I think is silly.
logicaly if one needs a faster lens, then one is going to remove that TC eventualy..
ok let me get that straight? what's the point of buying a 300mm F4 lens if one is going to stuck a tc on it all the time?
I can understand if one need 300mm f4 from time to time..but not if they are always using the tc on it.
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netgarden
Forum Pro
--
Linda~ http://sweetlight.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/362
You don't take a photograph. You ask, quietly, to borrow it. Author Unknown
Linda~ http://sweetlight.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/362
Daniella68313
Forum Pro
yeah I know..that'S what I was saying. that does not show anything.
only 100% crop will actualy show the real image quality and only wide open shots. at F8 most lenses are sharp.
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
only 100% crop will actualy show the real image quality and only wide open shots. at F8 most lenses are sharp.
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Linda~ http://sweetlight.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/362
You don't take a photograph. You ask, quietly, to borrow it.Author Unknown
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
Gus Stangeland
Senior Member
But on the other hand, what's the downside? My Canon 1.4x II matches my 300f4 IS lens perfectly. Only another Canon person would even know it's on there. It all looks just like one lens. Yes, it drops the aperture to 5.6, so it's a 420mm 5.6L IS lens for $1,095! What's wrong with that? And I already have the Canon 1.4x TC, so that doesn't enter in to the equation.To go up in fl from there would be a mammoth increase in price.
Once I get my focus problem corrected I'll be able to make some comparisons. But for now, trying to compare IQ with OOF shots is an excersize in futility. (I was going to say like "........ in the wind") but thought not, ha!
Have a GREAT Thanksgiving all! I really appreciate discussions like this. I have learned more from DPR than anywhere else.
Gotta run, turkey is being served at my daughter's house.
Gus
netgarden
Forum Pro
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Linda~ http://sweetlight.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/362
You don't take a photograph. You ask, quietly, to borrow it. Author Unknown
Linda~ http://sweetlight.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/362
Garrett Lau
Senior Member
I'm surprised Daniella didn't jump in and say that you need to post 100% crops, but even these resized photos don't look very sharp. Here's a very similar picture that I took with the 100-400. It looks like the same bird in the same tree, from the same angle, so we were probably the same distance away.
--Garrett
http://www.pbase.com/garrettlau
--Garrett
http://www.pbase.com/garrettlau
Just want to get the record straight. I’m sure there can be copy
variation and operator error but 300/4 +1.4 TC is very sharp. By
most accounts it is even sharper than 100-400 at the long end.
Here are a few samples of 300/4 with 1.4TC.
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