Forget Canon, How about Pentax vs. Nikon?

...with fabrics, even with not in crisp focus, which is a concern for me since I shoot people and don't always have the luxury of dictating wardrobe. There appear to also be a few operational quirks such as the AF button not being repeated on the vertical grip (although I understand you can reassign that function to the button at the center of the thumbpad which IS accessible in the vertical orientation). There also doesn't seem to be a non-menu method of accessing ISO.

In the end, I'm interested in the specification, but will have to see a greater range of high-performance AF lenses, both zooms and SFL, to support the camera as well as get one in my hands for a practical assessment of its handling and image quality before I decide if it's worthwhile to add one to my kit.

Your mileage WILL vary.

--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabeluna/

Kabe Luna said:

There appear to also be a few operational
quirks such as the AF button not being repeated on the vertical
grip (although I understand you can reassign that function to the
button at the center of the thumbpad which IS accessible in the
vertical orientation). There also doesn't seem to be a non-menu
method of accessing ISO.

Click to expand...

maybe misunderstand you, but the k10d's

iso is displayed in the viewfinder plus you can set the iso on one of the tumbweels when using iso priority.

oh yea. it has iso priority as one of its features.

zapbuzz said:

maybe misunderstand you, but the k10d's
iso is displayed in the viewfinder plus you can set the iso on one
of the tumbweels when using iso priority.

oh yea. it has iso priority as one of its features.

Click to expand...

Yes I like this new modes.

Though the pancake lenses are cute, I use a 24 f2 AIS on my D200 and it barely clears the flash overhang. from 16mm to the 85 f1.8 Nikon lenses are hardly huge. I'd love to see a smaller 12 or 14mm, but I just don't see the size problem with Nikon midrange primes. I've got big hands anyway. If I need to fit a camera in a pocket, the D200 won't fit anyway, I'll take my Leica.

Tom

Kabe Luna said:

There also doesn't seem to be a non-menu
method of accessing ISO.

Click to expand...

Just as an info, there are actually two methods of controling ISO without ever touching a button or going through a menu on the K10:

Sensitivity priority (Sv): well, the name says it all. Choose your ISO by the front (or rear, user selectable) wheel, use program shift on the other wheel.

and then there's the even more powerfull TAv mode that let you control depth of field by imposing an aperture AND motion by imposing a shutter speed, ISO being adjusted by camera to achieve proper exposure.

Now you may ask why I'm claiming this also can be used to adjust ISO?

Well, if you fix two of the three exposure parameters, the third one isn't free anymore, you can actually control it at willl.

The best thing is that you can choose which parameter(s) should stay fixed and which one should adapt according to your subject and intentions whithout the camera second guessing you.

In which other DSLR can you control depth of field, motion blur and grain just with the combination of two wheels?

IMHO, that's much faster than going through a button push + wheel turning each time you want to change ISO.

(not simply having it shown in the finder) in manual mode, which is where I work virtually all the time. There doesn't seem to be a direct/dedicated control for ISO in manual mode. Am I wrong? If so, how is it accomplished?

Thanks!
--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabeluna/

...but I use manual for exposure for the sake of consistency of exposure throughout a shooting session. I don't want my exposures pingponging around simply because the reflected light meter determined that a simple change from white shirt to dark blue demands more exposure. Sounds like these will be great tools for automatic exposure fans, but I'd rather control all three parameters myself. It may be a bit slower on the front end, but the time saved on the back end being able to apply a single set of corrections to all the images from a shoot because the exposures were all the same is far greater.

So, again, is there any way to directly set exposure on the K10D while in manual mode? Is there a dedicated control for it?

veriwide said:

Kabe Luna said:

There also doesn't seem to be a non-menu
method of accessing ISO.

Click to expand...

Just as an info, there are actually two methods of controling ISO
without ever touching a button or going through a menu on the K10:

Sensitivity priority (Sv): well, the name says it all. Choose your
ISO by the front (or rear, user selectable) wheel, use program
shift on the other wheel.

and then there's the even more powerfull TAv mode that let you
control depth of field by imposing an aperture AND motion by
imposing a shutter speed, ISO being adjusted by camera to achieve
proper exposure.

Now you may ask why I'm claiming this also can be used to adjust ISO?
Well, if you fix two of the three exposure parameters, the third
one isn't free anymore, you can actually control it at willl.

The best thing is that you can choose which parameter(s) should
stay fixed and which one should adapt according to your subject and
intentions whithout the camera second guessing you.

In which other DSLR can you control depth of field, motion blur and
grain just with the combination of two wheels?

IMHO, that's much faster than going through a button push + wheel
turning each time you want to change ISO.

Click to expand...

--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabeluna/

AAK said:

BoBCita said:

I doubt K10D will have better weather sealing than the D200 and,
after all, it's made of plastic.

Click to expand...

No it isn't. It has a metal frame, just like the D200, except for
it being some kind of metal that is not Magnesium alloy, ad that's
why it's heavy for its size.

But it is not a plastic frame.

Click to expand...

From Phil's hands-on preview ( http://www.dpreview.com/articles/pentaxk10d/page3.asp ):

"The only 'pro feature' the K10D appears to be lacking is a magnesium body (compared to the Canon EOS 30D and Nikon D200), however the plastic used for the case feel extremely robust and the whole thing is attached to a metal chassis..."

--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabeluna/

Aleksander Kozak said:

J Mankila said:

raztec said:

Why not better than the D200? It has likely better AF, better
weather sealing, and possibly better high ISO capability. Not
mention it has what the D200 doesn't have at all: in-camera image
stabilisation, dust removal and RAW DNG format.

Click to expand...

You really can't say a word about the AF before you go and try it -
or read a report from someone you trust.

I'd bet a large sum of money for D200 having better weather
sealing. The more money you spend the better you get, usually. I
can't see Pentax spending awful lot of money and effort when they
price the camera like this.

And from what I've heard, K10D is at the same level in the high ISO
department as Sony. That is to say it is way behind Nikon 10mp
sensor technology (they all share the same Sony sensor).

Besides, D200 is a magnesium alloy body. Okay, so it doesn't have
antidust, which is a plus to Pentax - if it works like it should.
Who cares about the DNG...

Aleksander Kozak said:

A pretty impressive list, no?

Click to expand...

On paper, yes.

Sorry, if I came across as rude, but I think you made too many
assumptions on which is better - and moreover, in a wrong forum
Just kidding...

--
regards
Janne Mankila, Finland
Just finished writing my photo diary from our trek to the valley of
Korouoma, Posio, Finnish Lapland:
http://jannemankila.googlepages.com

Click to expand...

Pentax K10d also has magnesium body , do not you know that?
Pentax has more sealings then Nikon D200, and SR works just great
with even MANUAL lenses. What a nice idea to use A 50mm 1.2 lens.
Remember, Pentax allows till 4 stops gain...
Have you seen new Pentax Limited lenses?Pencakes? What lenses.. Da
21mm is very nice for landscapes and very small, made of
metal.....very COOL.
Alek
PS Pentax works with Samsung and everybody knows how big Samsung is
now and they plan to settle in dslr market for good...

Click to expand...

--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabeluna/

...to even consider switching system based solely on a camera body. Lenses make images, lenses contribute a larger part to your visual style. Where lenses are concerned, Pentax is having a hard time staying competitive with Olympus, let alone Nikon. I can see maybe adding a K10D to my kit if it provides something essential which my Canon and Nikon gear can't deliver (which it doesn't seem to), but switching entirely from either of those more comprehensive systems to Pentax's limited digital system? Well, for someone who earns a significant part of his living from photography, that'd be something of a mistake.

S.A. said:

sandy b said:

This post makes more sense in the D80 forum. The pentax looks like
a great bargain, but to switch from the d200 makes no sense at all.

The pentax has a very nice list of features, but so does Nikon.
Plus I like the nikon lens line up at this point.

This may be a make or break camera for pentax, and it sure looks
good on paper. i wish them well.

Click to expand...

I disagree. As previously mentioned, the K10D actually offers some
features that the d200 does not have. And it looks like it has a
much better AF system on paper. Heck it even has an AF-ON button.
About the only thing I would miss is the 5 FPS. If the image
quality is on par or better than the D200 and the AF proves to be
fast and more accurate, I may consider switching.
--
Scott A.

Click to expand...

--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabeluna/

I like this idea -- if you know you need 1/60 sec to handhold, then you want dof of 2.8 to blur a bit of the background, then let the ISO do its thing.

But in practice, I know which kind of light is ISO 100 light, which is ISO 400 light, and so on. So it's easy for me to set ISO before I get into a situation.

But still, it shows Pentax is thinking. Hope they make it big. We need another player in the DSLR business.

--
Phil Flash
SF, CA USA
Be loyal to your picture taking style, not to any brand or sensor size.

Stuff I own in my profile.

Kabe Luna said:

...but I use manual for exposure for the sake of consistency of
exposure throughout a shooting session. I don't want my exposures
pingponging around simply because the reflected light meter
determined that a simple change from white shirt to dark blue
demands more exposure. Sounds like these will be great tools for
automatic exposure fans, but I'd rather control all three
parameters myself. It may be a bit slower on the front end, but the
time saved on the back end being able to apply a single set of
corrections to all the images from a shoot because the exposures
were all the same is far greater.

So, again, is there any way to directly set exposure on the K10D
while in manual mode? Is there a dedicated control for it?

Click to expand...

Hi Kabe,

I think veriwide's answer was directed at your assessment that:

Kabe Luna said:

Kabe Luna said:

Kabe Luna said:

There also doesn't seem to be a non-menu
method of accessing ISO.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

and he just explained two ways of accessing ISO on the K10D (albeit in programmed mode).

Since you didn't explain anything of YOUR shooting preferences in your first post, his answer seems relevant.

To answer your last question, the answer is that in M mode, you have to use the Fn button and select your ISO with the 4-way controler.

So far, the comments I have seen from people who actually used it (some of them using also Nikons or Canons DSLR) on the K10 were positive on speed and ease of use but it's all I can say.

Have a nice day.

Phil Flash said:

I like this idea -- if you know you need 1/60 sec to handhold, then
you want dof of 2.8 to blur a bit of the background, then let the
ISO do its thing.

But in practice, I know which kind of light is ISO 100 light, which
is ISO 400 light, and so on. So it's easy for me to set ISO before
I get into a situation.

Click to expand...

True in a controled environment but what about sudden changes in light?

I think the reason I like this way of thinking about automatic exposure is that I agree that Av and Tv are the main parameters in controling a picture.

ISO comes after as noise is more easy to remove than motion blur or unwanted depth of field.

I actually asked for some feedback on this mode by users in the Pentax forum but got no answers so far.

Maybe this mode also through Pentaxians of balance after all ;-)

Phil Flash said:

But still, it shows Pentax is thinking. Hope they make it big. We
need another player in the DSLR business.

--
Phil Flash
SF, CA USA
Be loyal to your picture taking style, not to any brand or sensor
size.

Stuff I own in my profile.

Click to expand...

Aleksander Kozak said:

Pentax K10d also has magnesium body , do not you know that?

Click to expand...

No. And I have a very good reason.

Aleksander Kozak said:

Pentax has more sealings then Nikon D200, and SR works just great
with even MANUAL lenses. What a nice idea to use A 50mm 1.2 lens.
Remember, Pentax allows till 4 stops gain...

Click to expand...

They can claim ten stops and still have the same technology. Do not ever take advertisement as gospel.

The amount of sealings are not the place to look if you want to know the efficiency of the system. We'll have to see about how it handles the environment. Still, it's a great selling point - I'd be very happy if I had it in my D80 along with a bit bigger body and soft rubber grip.

What? What's SR? Do you mean the K10D meters with manual lenses, or? Now that'd be cool!

Aleksander Kozak said:

Have you seen new Pentax Limited lenses?Pencakes? What lenses.. Da
21mm is very nice for landscapes and very small, made of
metal.....very COOL.

Click to expand...

21mm is pretty narrow, in my opinion, for landscapes... Metal is always nice, though - which is exactly why I own several manual Nikkor lenses

Aleksander Kozak said:

Alek
PS Pentax works with Samsung and everybody knows how big Samsung is
now and they plan to settle in dslr market for good...

Click to expand...

Planning it is not doing it. Sorry

--
regards
Janne Mankila, Finland

Just finished writing my photo diary from our trek to the valley of Korouoma, Posio, Finnish Lapland:
http://jannemankila.googlepages.com

Hi,

Well lol101 beat me to it and I apologize if my first reply was off topic.

In M mode (as in all other shooting modes) the Fn button assigns ISO to the right button of the four way controler. You then have to use this controler to set ISO.

Pretty fast although maybe not as fast as a dedicated ISO button but some say it avoids too many buttons on the body which is something I don't really care about.

I have a question though, if you shoot M mode all the time and with a handeld light meter (since you don't trust the onboard light meter, and I have to agree with you that incident light metter is the best way to get consistent results), it's admitedly a slowish method by itself, iso how can not having a dedicated button for ISO be a deal-breaker for you?

If your main interest are studio shots (which I don't know) why would you ever change ISO?

I take it you have been booted from the hideous Canon forum with your wanabe proper camera and intend to now divulge us into this absurd my "camera takes pictures for less" deluded argument

Just use it to take pictures and stop annoying those who did not for whatever reason buy your well percieved investment

raztec said:

It has:
1. In-camera image stabilisation

Click to expand...

Which you cannot see working in the viewfinder so how do you know when the image is stabilised?

raztec said:

3. RAW in camera DNG format

Click to expand...

but all none Nikon RAW converters handle only about half the information parameters Nikon provide in NEF - - one reason some RAW converters are quicker is they ignore a lot of captured information. If you want speed with limited information DNG is good - if you want more DNG cannot handle it.

raztec said:

4. Great view finder

Click to expand...

Just like Nikon D80 and D200

raztec said:

5. All for less than $1000.

Click to expand...

• with a few other important to some limitations compared to Nikon.

The future is simple - there is increasing wide choice in Nikon and other bands - any-one can buy what they want when they want so long as they can pay.
--
Leonard Shepherd

Usually skill in using equipment has more to do with good photography than the equipment itself.

veriwide said:

Hi,

Well lol101 beat me to it and I apologize if my first reply was off
topic.

In M mode (as in all other shooting modes) the Fn button assigns
ISO to the right button of the four way controler. You then have to
use this controler to set ISO.

Click to expand...

...I don't mind having to configure the camera for direct access, so long as I can get direct (fast) access.

veriwide said:

Pretty fast although maybe not as fast as a dedicated ISO button
but some say it avoids too many buttons on the body which is
something I don't really care about.

I have a question though, if you shoot M mode all the time and with
a handeld light meter (since you don't trust the onboard light
meter, and I have to agree with you that incident light metter is
the best way to get consistent results), it's admitedly a slowish
method by itself, iso how can not having a dedicated button for ISO
be a deal-breaker for you?

Click to expand...

Actually, I don't often use my incident meter, even though I always have it in my bag. Rather, I use the camera's spot meter in manual mode to effectively implement the zone system (after all, it's not the meter itself I don't trust, but the algorithms that translate its readings and other bits of data into an exposure recommendation), placing critical highlight tones at the top of the camera's dynamic range and (if I have the luxury) sampling important shadows to determine if they fall naturally within the camera's DR or if fill light will be needed to maintain detail and keep noise at bay. Yes, while it demands more time initially than does AE, it saves a ton of time later in post by either not having to make corrections or making the application of corrections to large numbers of images at once much easier. Being an exposure parameter the same as shutter speed and aperture, I expect to be able to manipulate ISO with as little effort as these other two. Being able to do so in-finder is preferred.

veriwide said:

If your main interest are studio shots (which I don't know) why
would you ever change ISO?

Click to expand...

I very seldom work in a studio. The closest thing I get is taking my strobes on location, often shooting outdoors in fast-changing light, so having fast access to ISO control when I need the aperture locked for strobe exposure, and the shutter speed basically set to assure handholdability, is a must. Having to plow through menus to change ISO would definitely be a deal breaker for me.

Still, even in a studio situation, I change ISO pretty frequently to allow a particular aperture value at a given power setting (since shutter speed doesn't affect strobe exposure): higher ISO for more DOF, and lower ISO for less. Because I don't care much for studio photography, I don't have super-powerful strobes and when I need extended DOF, very often I achieve this by increasing the ISO and stopping down then lens. Most current DSLRs are clean enough, even at ISO 1600, with daylight-balanced light, that this is practical.

--
- -
Kabe Luna

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabeluna/

Leonard Shepherd said:

Leonard Shepherd said:

It has:
1. In-camera image stabilisation

Click to expand...

Which you cannot see working in the viewfinder so how do you know
when the image is stabilised?

Click to expand...

Hint: How do we find out highlight is blown?

When you use a VR lens, you really can judge VR can stabilise your image by looking into the viewfinder?

Leonard Shepherd said:

Leonard Shepherd said:

3. RAW in camera DNG format

Click to expand...

but all none Nikon RAW converters handle only about half the
information parameters Nikon provide in NEF - - one reason some RAW
converters are quicker is they ignore a lot of captured
information. If you want speed with limited information DNG is good

• if you want more DNG cannot handle it.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you're comparing NEF to DNG converted from NEF. This is not entire relevant.
--
John

Hi Kabe,

Thank you for taking the time to explain in greater details your needs and shooting style.

I agree with you on all the points you mentionned and I would hate to go through a menu to change ISO settings. A camera should definitively not get in your way when you're trying to take pictures.

And I know what I'm talking about, I have a Pentax Ds and, while changing ISO is easy (although it's not displayed in the viewfinder :-( ) the settings for AF mode, AF point selection and AE mode are hidden at the very bottom of the menu: very annoying.

Much better ergonomics, plus a number of other reasons I will not go through here, have decided me to go for a K10.

Happy shooting and take care.