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707 issues affecting you?

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What shutter speed and aperture are you getting for these shots? Does the in-camera flash work well for you in auto mode even when you're indoors? The problem I've had is that the slow shutter speeds cause a blurring effect for anything that's well lit by the available light. For example, a lamp in the frame will be blurry, while the subject's face is not.--Peter Epstein
 
I just dont see how you can get wigging kids to not be ambient light blurred with 1/40th of a second at F2.

The first shot you had was outside and looked like little ambient light - the second was adults obviously posed.

If you have reasonable action and good indoor lighting you will get motion blurring - unless you are doing something magical?
Arlene said:


Here's another with the Hv 1000 -- Now that really works great. You
can use manual on any setting.


Glenn said:
I particularly have a problem with the fixed 1/40th shutter speed
at full aperture for flash taken in the auto mode. I have a lot of
otherwise great shots of my kids which are ruined because of
ambient light blur. I would move to manual settings for a
getaround but the software doesnt recognize forced flash in manual
mode and darkens the viewfinder after focus acquisition.

The combination of these features makes this camera must less
usefull as a family point and shoot - and even less usefull in
other controlled flash situations.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Arlene,

I have to agree with you on this one. I took lots of family flash shots with my 707 over Christmas - with the camera in full auto. Some were moving shots, some were still shots. Almost every one came out looking great. Now I may not have the discerning eye that some do on this forum, I readliy admit to that. However, for my needs and expectations, the 707 performs great indoors.
Arlene said:


Here's another with the Hv 1000 -- Now that really works great. You
can use manual on any setting.


Glenn said:
I particularly have a problem with the fixed 1/40th shutter speed
at full aperture for flash taken in the auto mode. I have a lot of
otherwise great shots of my kids which are ruined because of
ambient light blur. I would move to manual settings for a
getaround but the software doesnt recognize forced flash in manual
mode and darkens the viewfinder after focus acquisition.

The combination of these features makes this camera must less
usefull as a family point and shoot - and even less usefull in
other controlled flash situations.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Usually in auto with the flash on-- the shutter speed defaults to ! 80sec or 1/40sec.

If you look at the car picture of the kids - the lights in the back are blurry. The question is -- who cares? The most important thing in people shots are the people. In most cases photgraphers want backgrounds to be out of focus to varying degrees. Maybe I'm not understanding your problem. Can you post a picture?

---arlene
http://www.pbase.com/arlene/root
Peter Epstein said:
What shutter speed and aperture are you getting for these shots?
Does the in-camera flash work well for you in auto mode even when
you're indoors? The problem I've had is that the slow shutter
speeds cause a blurring effect for anything that's well lit by the
available light. For example, a lamp in the frame will be blurry,
while the subject's face is not.
--
Peter Epstein
Click to expand...
 
In auto with using in camera flash the speed usually defaults to 1/80sec or 1/40sec. When using in camera flash I put ISO on Auto - that brings up the speed. With flash you should be able to catch the action.

Take a look at this Basketball shot. It's very grainy because I had to lighten it in photoshop. I was far away in the stands, so the in camera flash didn't do a great job. I also shot it in a low resolution and then cropped out a lot and then enlarged it. Everything was working against this shot, but I still got it. I assume with kids closer up and not moving half as fast as a basketball game - you should be able to get great shots.


Glenn said:
The first shot you had was outside and looked like little ambient
light - the second was adults obviously posed.

If you have reasonable action and good indoor lighting you will get
motion blurring - unless you are doing something magical?
Arlene said:


Here's another with the Hv 1000 -- Now that really works great. You
can use manual on any setting.


Glenn said:
I particularly have a problem with the fixed 1/40th shutter speed
at full aperture for flash taken in the auto mode. I have a lot of
otherwise great shots of my kids which are ruined because of
ambient light blur. I would move to manual settings for a
getaround but the software doesnt recognize forced flash in manual
mode and darkens the viewfinder after focus acquisition.

The combination of these features makes this camera must less
usefull as a family point and shoot - and even less usefull in
other controlled flash situations.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Peter,

Yep, your shutter speed was way too slow but the effect is kinda cool. There's blur around the girls hair because she moved. The flash caught her anyway. Try auto with auto ISO. Also you're shooting right up into the light. Didja ever try shooting right at the sun -- not a good idea.

The girl looks pretty -- I'd avoid shooting up at her cause then you get those up the nose pictures which are cool for character shoots, but she's too pretty for that kind of shot.

Love, Arlene
http://www.pbase.com/arlene/root
Peter Epstein said:
Here is an example:

http://www.ericsworld.com/Peter/Personal/Chronological/2001-11-17JackieParty/pictures/dsc00224.html

Of course, the fact that there was a lamp immediately behind the
subject didn't help. Also, this shot may have been taken with
aperture priority, and perhaps that results in a slower shutter
speed than full auto would use.
--
Peter Epstein
Click to expand...
 
No question the strong backlighting is a problem. I've had the problem with more typical lighting as well, even at high ISO. However, I'm not sure whether I've had the problem in full auto mode. Does full auto mode use a different shutter speed than aperture priority would wide open? If it limits the shutter speed to avoid motion blur, I can imagine that it would not be prone to this problem. Maybe I just need to learn how to use the tool ;-)

Thanks for the feedback. I'll have to do some experiments.--Peter Epstein
 
Dear Arlene

Isnt the shutter speed with flash always 1/40th in automode? You mentioned 1/80th (which is twice as good and almost acceptable). Typical auto flash settings on a point and shoot are '1/125 or faster.

As far as I can see the illumination in the BB shot is totally stadium lighting. And if you look at the players, they are definitely motionblurred but the effect is minimized by the distance and hidden by the low resolution.

Try taking pictures of your kids moving around indoors with reasonably bright indoor lighting - or late afternoon with flash fill. You will quickly see that 1/40th at F2 is pretty crummy compared to what you would get from a good point and shoot APS camera.
Arlene said:
Take a look at this Basketball shot. It's very grainy because I had
to lighten it in photoshop. I was far away in the stands, so the in
camera flash didn't do a great job. I also shot it in a low
resolution and then cropped out a lot and then enlarged it.
Everything was working against this shot, but I still got it. I
assume with kids closer up and not moving half as fast as a
basketball game - you should be able to get great shots.


Glenn said:
The first shot you had was outside and looked like little ambient
light - the second was adults obviously posed.

If you have reasonable action and good indoor lighting you will get
motion blurring - unless you are doing something magical?
Arlene said:


Here's another with the Hv 1000 -- Now that really works great. You
can use manual on any setting.


Glenn said:
I particularly have a problem with the fixed 1/40th shutter speed
at full aperture for flash taken in the auto mode. I have a lot of
otherwise great shots of my kids which are ruined because of
ambient light blur. I would move to manual settings for a
getaround but the software doesnt recognize forced flash in manual
mode and darkens the viewfinder after focus acquisition.

The combination of these features makes this camera must less
usefull as a family point and shoot - and even less usefull in
other controlled flash situations.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Try putting your iso on 400 and maybe set your shutter speed to 1/80sec or even 125 sec till the ev's at 0 or even -1 is fine. On auto iso and auto mode it will sometime choose 1/80sec.. I'm surprised you didn't notice that.

Arlene
http://www.pbase.com/arlene/root
Glenn said:
Isnt the shutter speed with flash always 1/40th in automode? You
mentioned 1/80th (which is twice as good and almost acceptable).
Typical auto flash settings on a point and shoot are '1/125 or
faster.

As far as I can see the illumination in the BB shot is totally
stadium lighting. And if you look at the players, they are
definitely motionblurred but the effect is minimized by the
distance and hidden by the low resolution.

Try taking pictures of your kids moving around indoors with
reasonably bright indoor lighting - or late afternoon with flash
fill. You will quickly see that 1/40th at F2 is pretty crummy
compared to what you would get from a good point and shoot APS
camera.
Arlene said:
Take a look at this Basketball shot. It's very grainy because I had
to lighten it in photoshop. I was far away in the stands, so the in
camera flash didn't do a great job. I also shot it in a low
resolution and then cropped out a lot and then enlarged it.
Everything was working against this shot, but I still got it. I
assume with kids closer up and not moving half as fast as a
basketball game - you should be able to get great shots.


Glenn said:
The first shot you had was outside and looked like little ambient
light - the second was adults obviously posed.

If you have reasonable action and good indoor lighting you will get
motion blurring - unless you are doing something magical?
Arlene said:


Here's another with the Hv 1000 -- Now that really works great. You
can use manual on any setting.


Glenn said:
I particularly have a problem with the fixed 1/40th shutter speed
at full aperture for flash taken in the auto mode. I have a lot of
otherwise great shots of my kids which are ruined because of
ambient light blur. I would move to manual settings for a
getaround but the software doesnt recognize forced flash in manual
mode and darkens the viewfinder after focus acquisition.

The combination of these features makes this camera must less
usefull as a family point and shoot - and even less usefull in
other controlled flash situations.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Hi, Arlene !
As you, I think that F707 is perfect "home" camera ...
I take some pict of my daughter a week ago ... and likes them very much ...
Here is a links :
http://www.pbase.com/image/1001757/medium
http://www.pbase.com/image/1001790/medium

I didn't do any changes of original ... I see the oversaturated red, but I like it to ! :)
What you think about these picts ?

Bino
Arlene said:
Arlene
http://www.pbase.com/arlene/root
Glenn said:
Isnt the shutter speed with flash always 1/40th in automode? You
mentioned 1/80th (which is twice as good and almost acceptable).
Typical auto flash settings on a point and shoot are '1/125 or
faster.

As far as I can see the illumination in the BB shot is totally
stadium lighting. And if you look at the players, they are
definitely motionblurred but the effect is minimized by the
distance and hidden by the low resolution.

Try taking pictures of your kids moving around indoors with
reasonably bright indoor lighting - or late afternoon with flash
fill. You will quickly see that 1/40th at F2 is pretty crummy
compared to what you would get from a good point and shoot APS
camera.
Arlene said:
Take a look at this Basketball shot. It's very grainy because I had
to lighten it in photoshop. I was far away in the stands, so the in
camera flash didn't do a great job. I also shot it in a low
resolution and then cropped out a lot and then enlarged it.
Everything was working against this shot, but I still got it. I
assume with kids closer up and not moving half as fast as a
basketball game - you should be able to get great shots.


Glenn said:
The first shot you had was outside and looked like little ambient
light - the second was adults obviously posed.

If you have reasonable action and good indoor lighting you will get
motion blurring - unless you are doing something magical?
Arlene said:


Here's another with the Hv 1000 -- Now that really works great. You
can use manual on any setting.


Glenn said:
I particularly have a problem with the fixed 1/40th shutter speed
at full aperture for flash taken in the auto mode. I have a lot of
otherwise great shots of my kids which are ruined because of
ambient light blur. I would move to manual settings for a
getaround but the software doesnt recognize forced flash in manual
mode and darkens the viewfinder after focus acquisition.

The combination of these features makes this camera must less
usefull as a family point and shoot - and even less usefull in
other controlled flash situations.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Nope, the BFS has been fixed. I have not encountered any LEVBFS (don't use those settings which get that kinda results, I guess) and I am extremely happy with the AF speed and 95% accuracy of the focusing mechanism. (95% because sometimes, the camera gets the object behind the subject correctly focused and not the subject itself.)

The lens is wonderful and images come out impressively sharp and full of details. The size is decent: Compact enough to store in a small bag but large enough (well, almost) to be comfortable to hold and use (but almost always two-handed please for better stability).

I only regret that the HVL-F1000 external flash is outta my budget reach at the moment (and there is no urgent need for it) and that the EV setting only goes to max +2.0 and min -2.0

I have even been asked to submit a quote to a company that is working with World Bank to be the official photographer. If it goes thru, I'll be able to keep my 707, buy the external flash and a digital wallet too, plus I get to travel with the event as it goes thru several countries all expenses paid.

Tigadee
TimM said:
Tim McDonald wrote:
The 707 seems like an amazing camera with great functionality.
However, I am concerned about several issues brought to my
attention reading this forum. I am concerned about the LEVBFS
problems and and the new found dark stripe down the left side of
pictures (very noticable in panoramas). My question is, how are
these issues affecting you 707 owners? Are the 707 quirks easy to
get around? Do you expect Sony to fix these issues with firmware
in the near future? My heart is torn between the G2 and 707--the
G2 for the great picture quality, and the 707 for the great
features (particularly the speed and zoom). I have decided to make
my purchasing decision by mid-week and stick to it. What are your
thougts?

--
-Tim
Click to expand...
--Tigadeewww.pbase.com/tigadee
 
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. My questions have been answered and I have decided to order the 707 first thing in the morning for $919.95 from etronics.com (they seem decent according to the reviews). I will also order the HVL-FH1100 external flash ($82.98).

I would like to add that from my experience over the past few weeks reading the different forums (Sony, Canon, Nikon…) the Sony Talk Forum is very unique in that almost half of the posts at any given time are Sony DC owners posting their pictures and giving critiques. I have found that other forums are more focused on problems, workarounds, accessories, comparisons, complaints… while many posts in STF are proud people using their equipment. This was the major selling point for me. Thanks guys!

I hope I get a camera with BALLS… no wait, I mean with no BALLS. Sheesh, that is hard to say! ;)

-Tim
Tim McDonald said:
The 707 seems like an amazing camera with great functionality.
However, I am concerned about several issues brought to my
attention reading this forum. I am concerned about the LEVBFS
problems and and the new found dark stripe down the left side of
pictures (very noticable in panoramas). My question is, how are
these issues affecting you 707 owners? Are the 707 quirks easy to
get around? Do you expect Sony to fix these issues with firmware
in the near future? My heart is torn between the G2 and 707--the
G2 for the great picture quality, and the 707 for the great
features (particularly the speed and zoom). I have decided to make
my purchasing decision by mid-week and stick to it. What are your
thougts?

--
-Tim
Click to expand...
 
IronMan43 said:
At full zoom, the default auto settings with flash are F2.4, 1/80s.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I just did a simple test with the lens cap on. In full auto mode with the flash in auto, the speed goes from 1/40 at wide angle to 1/80 at telephoto, with 1/60 somewhere in the middle. It always shoots wide open, so the aperture goes from 2.0 to 2.4. This is good news for me. The auto mode isn't perfect, but I think it's useful. I'll have to give it a try. Thanks for educating me.--Peter Epstein
 
It seems to me that it is not a shutter speed issue. The shutter speed is correct for your subject, hence the correct exposure. The exposure must be the same for the whole picture. The light is over exposed. I wonder what fucusing you were using? Pinpoint, weighted or auto? Strong backlighting is definitely a problem. Try also:
1. Use auto focus.
2. Set the round indicator on top to SCN.
3. Go into the menu and choose 'Twilight'.

4. Focus your shot using available light by pressing halfway down ( note the shutter speed).
5. Ignore the flashing hand and take the shot. Review it.

Do you like?

Just another option you might like. The flashing hand just seems to be a warning that you may need to be more careful of moving yourself or of your subject moving. You may also need to adjust the white balance of the light source you are using to help get the colors right.
Peter Epstein said:
No question the strong backlighting is a problem. I've had the
problem with more typical lighting as well, even at high ISO.
However, I'm not sure whether I've had the problem in full auto
mode. Does full auto mode use a different shutter speed than
aperture priority would wide open? If it limits the shutter speed
to avoid motion blur, I can imagine that it would not be prone to
this problem. Maybe I just need to learn how to use the tool ;-)

Thanks for the feedback. I'll have to do some experiments.
--
Peter Epstein
Click to expand...
 
I think what's going on here is that I was using aperture priority, which doesn't take the flash into account. I chose to stop down the lens a bit to get enough depth of field (probably more than I really needed). This resulted in a slow shutter speed. This didn't over-expose the image because it just throttles back the flash as a result. Her face comes out fine because most of the light comes from the flash, so no motion blur. However, the areas well lit by the available light are blurred due to camera motion.

Now, if I'd used auto mode, I probably would have had enough depth of field (f/2.0 on the 707 has much more DOF than f/2.0 on a 35mm film camera), and the shutter speed would have been 1/40 to 1/80 (depending on the focal length selected). This would probably be fast enough to avoid blur, especially for wide angle shots.

I've done many shots, and even those without backlighting problems come out badly with aperture priority at f/2.8, as the shutter speeds are terribly slow (like one second).

I don't think the twilight scene mode will help, as it also gives slow shutter speeds. I just checked, and portrait scene mode works like full auto, giving shutter speeds between 1/40 and 1/80. I think full auto mode is preferred, as it support night framing.--Peter Epstein
 
Tigadee said:
Nope, the BFS has been fixed. I have not encountered any LEVBFS
(don't use those settings which get that kinda results, I guess)
and I am extremely happy with the AF speed and 95% accuracy of the
focusing mechanism. (95% because sometimes, the camera gets the
object behind the subject correctly focused and not the subject
itself.)

The lens is wonderful and images come out impressively sharp and
full of details. The size is decent: Compact enough to store in a
small bag but large enough (well, almost) to be comfortable to hold
and use (but almost always two-handed please for better stability).

I only regret that the HVL-F1000 external flash is outta my budget
reach at the moment (and there is no urgent need for it) and that
the EV setting only goes to max +2.0 and min -2.0

I have even been asked to submit a quote to a company that is
working with World Bank to be the official photographer. If it goes
thru, I'll be able to keep my 707, buy the external flash and a
digital wallet too, plus I get to travel with the event as it goes
thru several countries all expenses paid.

Tigadee
Click to expand...
WISHING YOU ALL THE BEST IN YOUR APPLICATION FOR OFFICIAL PHOTOGRAPHER. Hoping to see your travel photos.

Tan Yiew Sun
 
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