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Stalyon

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I have the 3600HSD flash and I'm using it with my beloved 7D. I have never used it in wireless mode with the 7D, only my A1. I never got the results I wanted when using it with the A1 in wireless. Now I really NEED to use it in wireless mode with my 7D.

In three weeks I have a corporate Christmas party portrait shoot in a dark cafe/bar setting. There will be group shots and 15 separate portrait shots. There's no opportunity for bounce flash in this dark setting. So I thought I would use my wireless flash rather than lug my AlienBee unit to the bar. Not only will it be dark but the quarters will be tight, perfect for wireless flash.

I've been playing around trying to get the best results I can. I set the camera P mode hoping that the camera will use the ADI flash metering and give me the correct exposure automatically. The camera is 6 feet from the subject and the flash is 6 feet from the subject. In P mode, the flash continuely over exposes on the flash side. This happens every time in P mode. So I played around some more and I ended up using Aperture mode set to 5.6. The camera automatically sets the shutter to 60 in this mode. To get the correct exposure I set the exposure setting to -1. This setup seemed to give me the results I need for the portraits.

The above settings will probably work just fine, but I'm wondering why this isn't easier? I read the posts here and it seems that I'm missing something that everyone else seems to know. Is the 3600 limited? Would the 5600 be that much better in wireless mode? Or am I missing the correct settings some where? The manual is very vague when comes to getting good wireless results. I need some experienced advise PLEASE.

Thanks.
 
Hey

I use the wireless flash system a lot when it comes to event photography. I have both the 5600 and 3600 flash heads. Just last night, my set up for a showcase concert was a 5600 mounted on a bracket [fired wirelessly] and my assistant holding the 3600 with a monopod.

Anyways, I learned that the best way to do it is using manual mode—play with it to get a feel of how much light is coming out of the flash and from there, you can adjust accordingly. Unfortunately, the 3600 doesn’t have manual override for the flash output… but try tilting the flash to 45 degree angle and using settings of f5.6 with a shutter 60 or less… I try to get the ambient light as much as possible and I even sometimes use 1/20 with f9 iso 800.

If you want to see samples, just email me jjasef[at]gmail.com and I can show some pics with the 3600 set up.

-jCasas
http://www.jcasasphotography.com
 
I just setup using the same parameters you describe in your post. I have no such exposure vagaries when using P or A modes on my 7D with the 5600 in wireless. Now, I don't shoot a 3600, but I cannot find a reason you should be getting such overexposure as you describe.

Here is a shot I just took a few minutes ago to make sure I knew what I was talking about concerning wireless w/7D. After reading your post, I grabbed the 5600 and the 7D and walked into the kitchen where my wife is preparing lunch and said "Hey" and she knows to fall into a "smile for the camera guy and he'll just go away" kind of thing.



. This is wireless in A mode and 5.6 @ 1/60 from 6' away. I held the flash in my left hand fully extended up and @ 45 degrees.

Sorry, wish I could help you in some manner, but my setup doesn't do what your's is doing.
Regards, Jim
Stalyon said:
I have the 3600HSD flash and I'm using it with my beloved 7D. I
have never used it in wireless mode with the 7D, only my A1. I
never got the results I wanted when using it with the A1 in
wireless. Now I really NEED to use it in wireless mode with my 7D.

In three weeks I have a corporate Christmas party portrait shoot in
a dark cafe/bar setting. There will be group shots and 15 separate
portrait shots. There's no opportunity for bounce flash in this
dark setting. So I thought I would use my wireless flash rather
than lug my AlienBee unit to the bar. Not only will it be dark but
the quarters will be tight, perfect for wireless flash.

I've been playing around trying to get the best results I can. I
set the camera P mode hoping that the camera will use the ADI flash
metering and give me the correct exposure automatically. The
camera is 6 feet from the subject and the flash is 6 feet from the
subject. In P mode, the flash continuely over exposes on the flash
side. This happens every time in P mode. So I played around some
more and I ended up using Aperture mode set to 5.6. The camera
automatically sets the shutter to 60 in this mode. To get the
correct exposure I set the exposure setting to -1. This setup
seemed to give me the results I need for the portraits.

The above settings will probably work just fine, but I'm wondering
why this isn't easier? I read the posts here and it seems that I'm
missing something that everyone else seems to know. Is the 3600
limited? Would the 5600 be that much better in wireless mode? Or
am I missing the correct settings some where? The manual is very
vague when comes to getting good wireless results. I need some
experienced advise PLEASE.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
--



Odds N' Ends album here:
http://www.pbase.com/jimh/inbox&page=all
Z album here: http://www.pbase.com/jimh/marilyn_the_car&page=all
 
Would it help if I used a D lens? I think I only have the one that can in the kit. I use the 28-75 2.8 as my main lens, but I would conside using the D kit lens if that will make things easier for me.

Thoughts?
 
well, you shouldnt be using ADI flash mode if you are not using a D lens in the first place... using a non-D lens in ADI mode will get you incorrect exposures, set it back to PTTL mode for now
 
The 7D should automatically change to TTL if using a non D lens but the 5D does not. If the exposure is only changing in response to manual aperture settings it is likely that the TTL signals between the camera and flash are not working properly. I had a 3600 for a day which would only work that way.
--
dhaslam
http://www.pbase.com/dhaslam/galleries
 
I've had this problem when using a bare wireless flash with no umbrella. If the flash is a fair bit off to the side, then you'll be getting one side of your subject really bright and the other side really dark; I believe this is because that way it averages to a "correct" exposure. If you can, use an umbrella or reflector and that should help even it out. On the other hand, if you really do want a more dramatic high contrast look (where one side of the face falls in to shadow) then try spot metering off the illuminated side of the face.

Note that I don't shoot with a 3600, I use a Sigma EF-500 DG Super (which is actually terrible on-camera, but does well in wireless.)

maybe I'm wrong, but I thought ADI only worked for direct flash when the flash is mounted on the camera. After all, the camera has no idea how far the flash is from the subject and thus will not be able to use that info in calculating exposure. Try using TTL (though I have a hunch the camera is already doing so)

--
Bob

http://minoltaman.fotopic.net
 
Stalyon said:
Would it help if I used a D lens? I think I only have the one that
can in the kit. I use the 28-75 2.8 as my main lens, but I would
conside using the D kit lens if that will make things easier for me.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
ADI doesn't work in wireless mode (camera has no idea of the flash to subject distance) or without a D lens. The film cameras automatically changed from ADI in those cases, but there were reports that the 7D doesn't (even though it should). Make sure that ADI is turned off on the camera.

Tom
 
...turn off the ADI and try using a D lens. This sounds good and I will give it a shot.

I also read at Imaging Resource that the flash should know the distance and correct exposure because the camera sends the information to the flash. This makes me think that P mode should work correctly in regards to determining the correct exposure.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/ACCS/56H/56H.HTM

Thoughts?
 
Stalyon said:
...turn off the ADI and try using a D lens. This sounds good and I
will give it a shot.

I also read at Imaging Resource that the flash should know the
distance and correct exposure because the camera sends the
information to the flash. This makes me think that P mode should
work correctly in regards to determining the correct exposure.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/ACCS/56H/56H.HTM

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Half right. Again, ADI and D lenses have NO effect on wireless. The camera only knows what it reads of the TTL metering from the pre-flash. And the 28-75 is a D lens, fyi.

You can use larger exposures to increase the effect of the ambient light.

Without bouce, it'll be tough to get good portraits with a single flash. The "above and to the side" method is probably your best bet. Use a bouce reflector or lumiquest or similar.

Good luck...
 
with my 5D and 7D cameras. I have never used P mode on either camera (or my Ax cameras) because of comments made here about its problems. Perhaps it has a use, after all.
 
According the Imagining Resource article the D does do something.

"The 14-segment exposure sensor reads the reflected light and the exposure computer factors that information in with the Subject Focus distance and position reported in the viewfinder, the ambient light brightness and the Distance if a D lens is attached."

So far, in my testing, it doesn't help me. It seems the 7D is selecting the largest aperature at all times when using P mode. The kit lens did better because it's largest ap is 3.5 where as the other lens was always at 2.8. Neither worked as I had hoped, in P mode. I'll most likely be sticking with manual settings.

BTW, yes I plan on taking my reflectors with me just in case we're close to a window. Maybe I can use ambient light exclusively.

I don't believe a larger ap will help me in my current situation (wireless). That will actually make it worse as proven by P mode.
 
Well read, but it wouldn't be the first time a third party was wrong. Not that I trust Minolta that much more. ;-)

According to their manual:

"In wireless/remote flash mode, ADI metering and pre-flash metering will be cancelled and TTL metering will be used automatically".

However, this is also false, because it doesn't apply to digital. They still have to use pre-flash. So if the had to reprogram it for digital, maybe they found a way to reincorporate the ADI data into the pre-flash metering algorithm.

Greg
 
Stalyon said:
According the Imagining Resource article the D does do something.

"The 14-segment exposure sensor reads the reflected light and the
exposure computer factors that information in with the Subject
Focus distance and position reported in the viewfinder, the ambient
light brightness and the Distance if a D lens is attached."
Click to expand...
The camera does know the camera to subject distance (even without a D lens, but more precisely with a D lens). It uses that information in 14 segment ambient metering, primarily in P and auto modes to estimate the type of shot (portrait, landscape, etc.) and select the appropriate f-stop/shutter combination (small aperture for landscape and appropriate aperture to get shallow DOF for portrait depending on distance).

However, that has nothing to do with flash control, unless the flash is on camera and pointing direct at the subject. The camera would need to know the flash to subject distance (including bounce distance and reflectivity if bounce is used), since flash to subject distance and aperture determine the power needed for a correct exposure. There's no way the camera can know where you place the wireless flash or how many you are using. Also in dark ambient situations with flash the camera will select a wide open (or nearly wide open) aperture and a shutter speed of about 1/60sec) unless slow sync is activated (AE lock).

You will need to spread ther light out, I normally use either a lumiquest pocket bouncer or softbox. You could also try shooting into a reflector or umbrella. You also want to be sure that the flash zoom is at its widest setting (not sure if you can manually set it on the 3600.) It should set that automatically when in wireless.

Tom
 
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