Noise vs Resolution

I've been worried about noise on the 10D, and was recently reading a Pentax article someone posted where the Pentax spokesperson was saying basically that superior resolution trumped noise. This sounded a lot like smoke and mirrors to me, but I just printed some pictures from my wife's trip with her new Pany TZ1 and while they were very noisy, due mostly to shooting 150 shots with a -2 EV (I know) they printed great due to very good resolution. So I do believe there is something to this arguement.

BTW, I had to PS all those shots to salvage anything at all, and she now tells me that she wants a different camera, one that you just point and shoot, has no settings at all to confuse you, adjusts automatically for all light conditions, gets the color absolutely perfect every time, stops all blur from any cause, and fits in her purse. She told me to go up to Ft Worth this week and get her one, but I told her I should ask around first. Surely someone here owns such a camera???
--
'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

Rupert60 said:

I've been worried about noise on the 10D, and was recently
reading a Pentax article someone posted where the Pentax
spokesperson was saying basically that superior resolution
trumped noise.

Click to expand...

I think the quote is being taken out of context. That wasn't his point.

Rupert60 wrote:
snip

Rupert60 said:

BTW, I had to PS all those shots to salvage anything at all, and
she now tells me that she wants a different camera, one that you
just point and shoot, has no settings at all to confuse you,
adjusts automatically for all light conditions, gets the color
absolutely perfect every time, stops all blur from any cause, and
fits in her purse. She told me to go up to Ft Worth this week and
get her one, but I told her I should ask around first. Surely
someone here owns such a camera???
--

Click to expand...

Well, Rupert, I guess the answer to your question is...eyeballs. They do everything you ask about, but they don't work so good once they've been in your wife's purse! Nothing against your wife's purse mind, but it's not exactly an "eyeball friendly" environment. Oh, and another good thing about eyeballs? They don't need batteries or memory cards.

east(hope that helps)saltwater

No I think they are right. Basically you have two choices when it comes to noise and noise reduction.

Option 1: You have more noise with less noise reduction so you have more noise but your images have much more detail because the camera's noise reduction isn't blurring your images trying to hide it. And, I do mean hide it, since it is mushing the image to keep you from seeing it and not really removing it, it is hiding it.

Option 2: Less noise with a lot more noise reduction. This is the method that Panasonic went with for the 10MP FZ50. Unlike the 30 which had more noise, but had much more detail in the images the 50 even in low ISO brightly light shots mushed the images to the point you see very little noise but you also have what looks like a painting caused by them removing the noise.

So if the 10D has a bit more noise, but much more detail that is fine by me. Also, it is important to know that third party plug-ins like Noise Ninja or Neat Image will do a 1000 times better job of noise removal (I do mean removal) than anything they could implement in the camera.

I wish when people looked at noise they also looked at the detail in the image. The go hand in had. Low noise, low detail. Higher noise, higher detail.

Robert

Rupert60 said:

I've been worried about noise on the 10D, and was recently reading
a Pentax article someone posted where the Pentax spokesperson was
saying basically that superior resolution trumped noise. This
sounded a lot like smoke and mirrors to me, but I just printed some
pictures from my wife's trip with her new Pany TZ1 and while they
were very noisy, due mostly to shooting 150 shots with a -2 EV (I
know) they printed great due to very good resolution. So I do
believe there is something to this arguement.

Click to expand...

There is truth in this statement. I am a big fan of the D200 which has been criticized for its high ISO noise. However, if you look at the images from that camera they really do appear very sharp thanks to the minimal noise reduction. The noise pattern also reminds so much of film it doesn't bother me at all despite it being prevelant.

IMO what Pentax should be doing is trying to get a nice luminance noise pattern with minimal NR. If we get a nose pattern similar the D200 I will be very happy.

Rupert60 said:

BTW, I had to PS all those shots to salvage anything at all, and
she now tells me that she wants a different camera, one that you
just point and shoot, has no settings at all to confuse you,
adjusts automatically for all light conditions, gets the color
absolutely perfect every time, stops all blur from any cause, and
fits in her purse. She told me to go up to Ft Worth this week and
get her one, but I told her I should ask around first. Surely
someone here owns such a camera???

Click to expand...

i don't think that camera exists ;-)

Rupert60 said:

--
'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

Click to expand...

--
mike

The primary concern for K10D over noise is for high ISO noise, i.e. at ISO1600. Not at regular ISO levels like ISO 200. P&S cameras can hardly handle ISO400, let alone 1600.

Unfortunately, the laws of physics says more pixels on the same sized sensor = more noise. So K10D will probably have higher noise than K100D. But still light years ahead of any P&S cameras due to their tiny sensor.

If we get a nose pattern similar
the D200 I will be very happy.

Desperately trying to think of something funny to say. No, I'll leave it...

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2006_reviews/t50.html

Auto everything, doesnt even need a case, and has anti-shake and auto ISO. And its very girlie.
--
Steve
Measurebating makes you short sighted.
http://www.pbase.com/steve_jacob

Rupert60 said:

I've been worried about noise on the 10D, and was recently reading
a Pentax article someone posted where the Pentax spokesperson was
saying basically that superior resolution trumped noise. This
sounded a lot like smoke and mirrors to me,

Click to expand...

The translation I read - and I assume here we're talking about the same piece - went
"We have stated a big catch phrase 'Imaging Revolution', but it simply
means the total image rendition including noise. Digital cameras tend to be
judged largely by various numbers and figures, and we are prepared for the
judgment only by the apparent figures of noise."

Which I take to mean, that Pixel count, colour measurment, dynamic range, and noise calculations all have a place, and we don't mind if people do judge us by noise. BUT that doesn't tell you about the feel of an image, any more than the 0-60, top speed, stopping distance and turning circle tell you if a car is nice to drive or not.

Rupert60 said:

but I just printed some
pictures from my wife's trip with her new Pany TZ1 and while they
were very noisy, due mostly to shooting 150 shots with a -2 EV (I
know) they printed great due to very good resolution. So I do
believe there is something to this arguement.

Click to expand...

Ah. Everyone has to learn what you have done - sooner or later. Pixel peeping shows things which don't matter when you make a print.

SteveB said:

If we get a nose pattern similar
the D200 I will be very happy.

Desperately trying to think of something funny to say. No, I'll
leave it...

Click to expand...

I am sure you won't be happy with it though ;-)

However, i just think noise is something we have to live with currently. So if I am going to have noise in my images (ISO400+) I want nice looking noise.

Each to there own maybe I am odd....

Now if there is a lot of colour noise than I will not be happy :-(

--
mike

Good answer

I thought the TZ1 was that camera... just set it to the simplest mode and shoot... that would be the heart symbol... or you could use program mode... i don't know if they can make a simpler camera then the TZ1

BTW i wouldn't worry about the noise from the K10D its not as bad as the Sony A100 and its not as soft as Nikon D80
--
Mike from Canada

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=31&&emailsearch=mighty_mike88%40hotmail.com&thumbnails=

Rupert60 said:

BTW, I had to PS all those shots to salvage anything at all, and
she now tells me that she wants a different camera, one that you
just point and shoot, has no settings at all to confuse you,
adjusts automatically for all light conditions, gets the color
absolutely perfect every time, stops all blur from any cause, and
fits in her purse. She told me to go up to Ft Worth this week and
get her one, but I told her I should ask around first. Surely
someone here owns such a camera???
--

Click to expand...

Possibly the only camera that does all that is the one that comes with a trained and experienced photographer to operate it. People hire photographers for a reason, and the reason is that either you learn the craft or you hire someone to do it for you, just like everything else in life!
--
'We have met the enemy, and he is us!

MightyMike said:

I thought the TZ1 was that camera... just set it to the simplest
mode and shoot... that would be the heart symbol... or you could
use program mode... i don't know if they can make a simpler camera
then the TZ1

BTW i wouldn't worry about the noise from the K10D its not as bad
as the Sony A100 and its not as soft as Nikon D80
--
Mike from Canada

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=31&&emailsearch=mighty_mike88%40hotmail.com&thumbnails=

Click to expand...

Mike, you are so right and the TZ1 is a nice P&S but my wife can make anything difficult that is electronic or mechanical. I worked with her after her trip and she is now shooting much better, but it will take some time before the complaining stops. She also wanted me to use oil in her car that didn't "wear out" so she wouldn't have to change it. Actually, she is very smart, but has no patience for "things".

'This is more serious than I thought.....but it is still fun!
http://www.pbase.com/rupertdog Take a look- It's Free!

Sorry to butt in with disappointing news, but the camera you are looking for with low noise even at high ISO, automatic everything and fully idiot proof does actually exist. It's just that it won't be announded until the day after you buy the best compromise you can currently find.....and if you do eventually try it you'll be loathed to get it as something even better will come out shortly afterwards for half the $$$!

Dave

If it's hit the shelves in an electronics shop it's already obselete ;-)

MightyMike said:

BTW i wouldn't worry about the noise from the K10D its not as bad
as the Sony A100 and its not as soft as Nikon D80

Click to expand...

sorry but now noise is the same in k10d and a100,

I have an old Kodak Brownie that has superb resolution, low noise, never has to be focused, and produces very nice pictures.

Of course 620 size "memory cartridges" are getting kind of hard to find, as are the flash bulbs.
And it only shoots "raw".

And the images are a bit hard to view on the computer, but that keeps the pixel-peepers away...



-Eric