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Asking permission? the law in UK, any tips?

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Mark_A

Mark_A

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Hoping for some tips here.....

I just returned from a bizzare experience trying to get shots of cars parked close to barriers in multi story car parks....

at first I thought just take the pics, then like the good chap I am I thought no why not ask beforehand ... it usualy works and well I had shot some already at that time.

I potterred along to the management office where I was greeted by a wall of video outputs from security cameras placed all over the place, car park, shopping mall and various other places including the street outside the shops which is public space.

I gave them my business card and asked if they would mind my taking a couple of still shots of parked vehicles for which would not identify either the vehicle registration plate or the car park for use on a website ...

them "could I write them a letter they asked so their area manager could check it" ....

I could come back if he gave permission,

them "but you have already been in the car park?" ..
me "why yes I parked there, I shop here often!" ..

them "send the letter and we will let you know .. we take security very seriously here"
me "I can see that from all the video cameras"

Anyhow the long and short of it is even after a faxed letter, permission was refused, the word used when they called was "unnaceptable" ...

How bizzare is that? .... When asked for permission for one or two still shots which do not identify anything they refuse yet their videocam banks which intrude into public areas .... record peoples movement, shopping habits nose picking etc etc ..... and we are not asked for permission...

Anyhow the point of this message is to ask how you and especially any professional photographers approach this sort of issue.

I need some advice rather than learning it all the hard way..
--Mark
http://www.sticky-marketing.com
 
Not much to do here. If they deny permission they do – that is pretty much it.

The simplest thing is to walk up take a few quick snaps and walk off.

I do some local paper stuff and am frequently in this type of situation – I almost never ask permission and when asked to see the manager I complain that I don’t have time and I’ll use another centre.

I regularly get my backs on one centre where I was photographing the early Christmas lights and decorations about two years ago – I actually had most of the shots I wanted and was approached by security to report to the manager’s office where I got a lecture about it being customary and good manners to ask permission first in a condescending school teacher’s attitude.

Well I take great pleasure in brining clients out of the shopping mall for cheque presentations and prizes etc by announcing loudly that I’ll need to ask for permission to photograph in here so we’ll just go outside and use the centre across the street where there are no problems.

In fact this year my editor got a phone call from the centre’s manager wondering why every other shopping centre had been featured in the Christmas special and not his.

I love it when a plan comes together. Hee Heee Heeee!! :))))
 
It is always better to beg for forgiveness than to ask permission!;-)
Ralph
 
Score one against knuckle-head "managers" who, rather than make a reasoned judgment and accept responsibility for it, just say NO.

Max
Ger Bee said:
Well I take great pleasure in brining clients out of the shopping
mall for cheque presentations and prizes etc by announcing loudly
that I’ll need to ask for permission to photograph in here so we’ll
just go outside and use the centre across the street where there
are no problems.

In fact this year my editor got a phone call from the centre’s
manager wondering why every other shopping centre had been featured
in the Christmas special and not his.

I love it when a plan comes together. Hee Heee Heeee!! :))))
Click to expand...
--Max http://www.pbase.com/maxxxam
 
Ralph Encarnacion said:
It is always better to beg for forgiveness than to ask permission!;-)
Ralph
Click to expand...
That makes me grin, so should I use the shots, they look great well no that is not true they look OK...

No tips on what the law actually is though?--Markwww.sticky-marketing.com
 
Ger Bee said:
The simplest thing is to walk up take a few quick snaps and walk off.
Click to expand...
Are there any legal implications if I just do that .. the thing that really was bizzare was the woman sitting in front of her 12 video screens thinking that my shots would be somehow a problem compared to what she was doing.. she even said that she did not have to comply with the data protection act unless she was zooming in on someone so as to identify them specifically.

Thinking about it afterward I realised that when I see professional press or tabloid photographers working I rarely see them in situations where they appear to have asked so perhaps I am being paranoid about it?
Ger Bee said:
In fact this year my editor got a phone call from the centre’s
manager wondering why every other shopping centre had been featured
in the Christmas special and not his.
Click to expand...
Obviously not someone who thinks in advance much about promotion for his centre then...
Ger Bee said:
I love it when a plan comes together. Hee Heee Heeee!! :))))
Click to expand...
:-) --Markwww.sticky-marketing.com
 
i'm no pro, but i do want to point out the differences between
a security camera and yours.

the security camera is being operated w/ the consent of the
owner of the premises.

yours is not.

i'm not sure about uk law, but taking pictures in public property
is okay as long as you are not targeting specific pple (don't know
how the law determines that)

anyways, for the rest of the posters, laugh and be merry until
someone sues you. :oP
Mark_A said:
Hoping for some tips here.....

I just returned from a bizzare experience trying to get shots of
cars parked close to barriers in multi story car parks....

at first I thought just take the pics, then like the good chap I am
I thought no why not ask beforehand ... it usualy works and well I
had shot some already at that time.

I potterred along to the management office where I was greeted by a
wall of video outputs from security cameras placed all over the
place, car park, shopping mall and various other places including
the street outside the shops which is public space.

I gave them my business card and asked if they would mind my taking
a couple of still shots of parked vehicles for which would not
identify either the vehicle registration plate or the car park for
use on a website ...

them "could I write them a letter they asked so their area manager
could check it" ....

I could come back if he gave permission,

them "but you have already been in the car park?" ..
me "why yes I parked there, I shop here often!" ..
them "send the letter and we will let you know .. we take security
very seriously here"
me "I can see that from all the video cameras"

Anyhow the long and short of it is even after a faxed letter,
permission was refused, the word used when they called was
"unnaceptable" ...

How bizzare is that? .... When asked for permission for one or two
still shots which do not identify anything they refuse yet their
videocam banks which intrude into public areas .... record peoples
movement, shopping habits nose picking etc etc ..... and we are not
asked for permission...

Anyhow the point of this message is to ask how you and especially
any professional photographers approach this sort of issue.

I need some advice rather than learning it all the hard way..

--
Mark
http://www.sticky-marketing.com
Click to expand...
 
acorntree said:
i'm no pro, but i do want to point out the differences between
a security camera and yours.
the security camera is being operated w/ the consent of the
owner of the premises.
yours is not.
Click to expand...
Sure I understand that which is why I asked for permission.
acorntree said:
i'm not sure about uk law, but taking pictures in public property
is okay as long as you are not targeting specific pple (don't know
how the law determines that)
Click to expand...
Trouble is identifying "public property".. much apparently public property is actually owned by local authorities on our (taxpayers behalf).

The fact that as the owners they can give permission to film us as we go about our lawful business is amusing because as I mentioned they own the property on OUR behalf yet we did not expressly give consent.

[This is not always the case where malls are concerned because these are usualy privately owned spaces into which the public are granted access.]

The trouble with the situation I found myself in is that I do not believe any reasonable company manager would have had any problem (speaking as a former company manager for the last 10 years) however the front line people at places like this are more concerned they might loose their jobs if their bosses find out and take offence (jobsworths is a term we use in the UK).

Assuming I had the time to scout locations and then work to obtain permission I am sure I could find senior people in each organisation (who have a clue) and would give me permission in writing (I can be charming and persuasuve :-) the trouble is the extra time required to achieve this.
acorntree said:
anyways, for the rest of the posters, laugh and be merry until
someone sues you. :oP
Click to expand...
Indeed, a waste of time I am not interested in!
--Markwww.sticky-marketing.com
 
update: i just read somewhere that, as long as the pictures are not for
advertisement use, its okay to take pictures of ppl.

top management usually are advised by reports of how competitors
use cameras. so a lot of them are weary of request for permision to
use a camera on their premise.

call me lucky, or maybe i look like tourist w/ my camera.... haven't been
approached by anyone about my camera (besides the usual compliments
about my dc4800 ;oP)
Mark_A said:
acorntree said:
i'm no pro, but i do want to point out the differences between
a security camera and yours.
the security camera is being operated w/ the consent of the
owner of the premises.
yours is not.
Click to expand...
Sure I understand that which is why I asked for permission.
Mark_A said:
i'm not sure about uk law, but taking pictures in public property
is okay as long as you are not targeting specific pple (don't know
how the law determines that)
Click to expand...
Trouble is identifying "public property".. much apparently public
property is actually owned by local authorities on our (taxpayers
behalf).

The fact that as the owners they can give permission to film us as
we go about our lawful business is amusing because as I mentioned
they own the property on OUR behalf yet we did not expressly give
consent.

[This is not always the case where malls are concerned because
these are usualy privately owned spaces into which the public are
granted access.]

The trouble with the situation I found myself in is that I do not
believe any reasonable company manager would have had any problem
(speaking as a former company manager for the last 10 years)
however the front line people at places like this are more
concerned they might loose their jobs if their bosses find out and
take offence (jobsworths is a term we use in the UK).

Assuming I had the time to scout locations and then work to obtain
permission I am sure I could find senior people in each
organisation (who have a clue) and would give me permission in
writing (I can be charming and persuasuve :-) the trouble is the
extra time required to achieve this.
Mark_A said:
anyways, for the rest of the posters, laugh and be merry until
someone sues you. :oP
Click to expand...
Indeed, a waste of time I am not interested in!

--
Mark
http://www.sticky-marketing.com
Click to expand...
 
acorntree said:
anyways, for the rest of the posters, laugh and be merry until
someone sues you. :oP
Click to expand...
Sues you for what? What damages can they prove? It seems to me that a civil suit wouldn't yeild much of a pay off if it even got into court as there simply aren't any damages from taking a picture.

About all they could do is try to go after you criminally.
 
Paul Jones said:
Hi Mark
Maybe this website might help? It deals with privacy laws and
press/photographers freedom in the UK and also the USA.
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/law/hamlyn/princess.htm
There's a lot to read through...
Click to expand...
Sure is plenty to read about Paul - lots on privacy intrusion.

I am not really interested in famous people and have no temptation to photograph them. In fact that people are famous seems to reduce my interest in them proportionally so I expect lots of it will not apply.

Looks useful though thank you.--Mark in UK
 
Don't know much about the U.K., but here in the U.S., I never ask any more. The few times I have asked, I've regretted it. Usually it causes more trouble than it's worth.

The funny thing is, setting up a tripod with a camera (especially a large format) will cause more problems than selling crack cocaine or loitering and harassing women and blocking the sidewalk in front of McDonald's at 3rd and PIne here in Seattle...

I admit I am defensive, and I never give members of the public a straight answer either, I figure it's none of their business if they ask what I'm photographing. I'm out doing something creative/productive, and I figure as long as it's not damaging to another person or property, it's none of their business if I'm in a public location. Just buy my photos later!!!

I shoot occasionally for work also (boring engineering job site photos), and get weird reactions there. People will stay in their house and look at you through the windows when I'm shooting a ditch or culvert, for instance, are too chicken to come outside, but they will call the cops.

Security guards are usually cop wannabes...
Mark_A said:
Hoping for some tips here.....

I just returned from a bizzare experience trying to get shots of
cars parked close to barriers in multi story car parks....

at first I thought just take the pics, then like the good chap I am
I thought no why not ask beforehand ... it usualy works and well I
had shot some already at that time.

I potterred along to the management office where I was greeted by a
wall of video outputs from security cameras placed all over the
place, car park, shopping mall and various other places including
the street outside the shops which is public space.

I gave them my business card and asked if they would mind my taking
a couple of still shots of parked vehicles for which would not
identify either the vehicle registration plate or the car park for
use on a website ...

them "could I write them a letter they asked so their area manager
could check it" ....

I could come back if he gave permission,

them "but you have already been in the car park?" ..
me "why yes I parked there, I shop here often!" ..
them "send the letter and we will let you know .. we take security
very seriously here"
me "I can see that from all the video cameras"

Anyhow the long and short of it is even after a faxed letter,
permission was refused, the word used when they called was
"unnaceptable" ...

How bizzare is that? .... When asked for permission for one or two
still shots which do not identify anything they refuse yet their
videocam banks which intrude into public areas .... record peoples
movement, shopping habits nose picking etc etc ..... and we are not
asked for permission...

Anyhow the point of this message is to ask how you and especially
any professional photographers approach this sort of issue.

I need some advice rather than learning it all the hard way..

--
Mark
http://www.sticky-marketing.com
Click to expand...
 
Tom W said:
I shoot occasionally for work also (boring engineering job site
photos), and get weird reactions there. People will stay in their
house and look at you through the windows when I'm shooting a ditch
or culvert, for instance, are too chicken to come outside, but they
will call the cops.
Click to expand...
Yea, it is best to hit and run on those types of shoots. Fly in, grab the pictures and get out really quickly before the police can arrive and harass you or someone comes out and starts bothering you while you are trying to work.

Of course there is another approach as well. Buy a yellow hard hat and an orange safety vest and wear them while shooting. Most people will figure you work for the city/county/state/town/village or whatever and will not even notice you. This is really works if you want to shoot next to the highway. If the police are called and the caller says, "Well, he is in a hard hat and an orange vest." They 911 operator will say, "We'll get right on it." and the police will show up several hours later...

The best way to avoid people bothering you is to look very self-absorbed in your work and simply ignore people when they look at you. The "I belong here, I'm working, leave me alone look” I called it. When I worked as a professional photographer, I was able to shoot just about anywhere and no one seemed to even notice me. Amateurs tend to be less able to 'appear' professional and thus people automatically realize they aren't a professional and therefore must be some sort of criminal or pervert.
 
Tom W said:
Don't know much about the U.K., but here in the U.S., I never ask
any more. The few times I have asked, I've regretted it. Usually
it causes more trouble than it's worth.
Click to expand...
I can understand your point of view. I am just getting into these issues so it is useful to hear from someone who has experience.
Tom W said:
The funny thing is, setting up a tripod with a camera (especially a
large format) will cause more problems than selling crack cocaine
or loitering and harassing women and blocking the sidewalk in front
of McDonald's at 3rd and PIne here in Seattle...
Click to expand...
I would guess that people are more afraid to approach someone selling drugs than one only armed with a tripod.
Tom W said:
I shoot occasionally for work also (boring engineering job site
photos), and get weird reactions there. People will stay in their
house and look at you through the windows when I'm shooting a ditch
or culvert, for instance, are too chicken to come outside, but they
will call the cops.
Click to expand...
I can sometimes sympathise with the people concerned, it is a sad fact that there are lots of frightened people out there.

I recently parked in a residential area to prepare for a meeting.

After a while an old man came out of the house. I only noticed him when he was already at his gate but was immediately worried he might fall. He looked very unsteady on his zimmer frame and at least in his 90s.

He wanted me to move my car because "otherwise an ambulance would not be able to get to him if he needed it" ... he was quite nervous, totally deaf AFAIKT, and I thought he needed pysical help to get back to his house. While I tried to be as calming as possible he seemed way too nervous to have let me help him back inside so rather than get to my meeting on time I waited 20 minutes more to watch him totter back into his house just to be sure he got back inside safely.
Tom W said:
Security guards are usually cop wannabes...
Click to expand...
It is the jobsworth thing that always irritates me.--Mark in UK
 
This is a great discussion and some good points. And, as a former newspaper photographer, I can relate to and agree with a lot of them.

I would suggest, however, that we no longer live in quite the same circumstances as we did prior to Sept. 11. At the risk of getting verbally pummelled here ; ) consider that someone taking a picture just may be doing a hobby, making a living or taking photos so that they can determine the best place to put a bomb. Or maybe you're taking a picture of someone you're planning to kidnap.

Frankly, any responsible security guard should be taking that into consideration.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.--Larrym
 
I agree with all you guys have replied. I sometimes wear an orange vest when out for work, and it is amazing how people won't even question you when you ask them "do you mind if i walk through your back yard to get to that stream..." when you're wearing something "official" like an orange vest (that anyone can buy...)

I also agree with the post-9-11 world, and how things are different, good points made here...for instance about 9 months ago i was able to travel with a geologist's pick on an airplane, wouldn't even try to carry it own now!

As far as being self-absorbed in my work, i usually am, or appear to be, but the big black machete probably doesn't calm people's nerves...
Serra said:
Tom W said:
I shoot occasionally for work also (boring engineering job site
photos), and get weird reactions there. People will stay in their
house and look at you through the windows when I'm shooting a ditch
or culvert, for instance, are too chicken to come outside, but they
will call the cops.
Click to expand...
Yea, it is best to hit and run on those types of shoots. Fly in,
grab the pictures and get out really quickly before the police can
arrive and harass you or someone comes out and starts bothering you
while you are trying to work.

Of course there is another approach as well. Buy a yellow hard hat
and an orange safety vest and wear them while shooting. Most
people will figure you work for the city/county/state/town/village
or whatever and will not even notice you. This is really works if
you want to shoot next to the highway. If the police are called
and the caller says, "Well, he is in a hard hat and an orange
vest." They 911 operator will say, "We'll get right on it." and
the police will show up several hours later...

The best way to avoid people bothering you is to look very
self-absorbed in your work and simply ignore people when they look
at you. The "I belong here, I'm working, leave me alone
look” I called it. When I worked as a professional
photographer, I was able to shoot just about anywhere and no one
seemed to even notice me. Amateurs tend to be less able to
'appear' professional and thus people automatically realize they
aren't a professional and therefore must be some sort of criminal
or pervert.
Click to expand...
 
Larry Mendenhall said:
I would suggest, however, that we no longer live in quite the same
circumstances as we did prior to Sept. 11. At the risk of getting
verbally pummelled here ; ) consider that someone taking a
picture just may be doing a hobby, making a living or taking photos
so that they can determine the best place to put a bomb. Or maybe
you're taking a picture of someone you're planning to kidnap.
Click to expand...
Possible, but I really don’t think that would be something that security people would need to worry about, except in secure areas. You would normally only need to take pictures of security features, such as inside buildings or parking areas. Mall and stores don’t have the type of security that would require photographing to defeat. Now if you were standing outside the fence of a tank farm snapping pictures, then I suggest you get ready for that strip search….
Larry Mendenhall said:
Frankly, any responsible security guard should be taking that into
Consideration.
Click to expand...
Hmm.. isn't that an oxymoron?
 
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