AutoFocus - Just How Bad?

Andrew Grant said:

Andrew Grant27981 said:

On the other note, I don't necessarily subscribe to the conspiracy
theory, but I won't discount it entirely either.

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I do. Like most conspiracy theories, I beleive it is nonsense.

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The thing in this situation that is definitely not nonsense is....If they put a great autofocus system in the D30...They would not have so many people chomping at the bit for this new camera most would be totally happy with their D30....Conspiracy theory?...Possible, but not probable........A Well thought out business strategy...Definitely.

Gregg

the poster asked if it would be wise to wait 30 days ( the PMA show)to see if there was a new offering that might improve upon an already good camera the d-30. If you make a living at portrait and event photography where you have to deal with dark reception Halls, or might need a little extra in the way pixels for large groups, might not want to get frustrated over missed shots waiting for the focus mechanism to catch up with your eye or have people start losing their smile as you hunt for a point of contrast, waiting 30 days is no big deal. Sure there are work arounds but when i part with $3000 (+) again it will be to make my job easier not more difficult. So I'll be waiting for quicker focus one extra button on the back (FEL) and larger imager, better LCD screen for out doors and it isn't the 1D. In the meantime I've happily demonstrated to others how great the images out of the d30 are. But I find defending it's shortcomings is down right silly. I'd rather folks had a clear idea of what they are spending their money on. Judging by the continuing high sales it appears that people are quite capable of sifting through the myriads of opinion pro and con and deciding for themselves. Scott I'm in the PPA directory if you want to discuss the camera on the phone.

Michael Thomas Mitchell said:

To the originator of this thread... portrait and landscape
photography won't exactly test the limits of any auto focus system.
The D30 system works... it's just not high performance. Knowing how
to use it -- and most importantly, when to turn it off and shoot
manually -- will be the key to success. You shouldn't be limited
unless you shoot sports or other fast moving subject matter.
Whether or not the D30 AF system is inferior to the Rebel 2000
system is best left to those who have the time to sit in their
living room with both cameras and a stopwatch, taking photos of
their toes on low light (before and after firmware updates!). If
you concentrate on real photography, you'll learn its
characteristics and how to get the AF to work for you. The whiners
have transformed the AF performance of the D30 into a disease. It's
not. I'll generalize here -- and open myself up for flames -- and
suggest that, in general, I tend to observe less whining from the
more capable photographers. Perhaps they, wisely, are simply
spending more of their time shooting great photos, or have merely
invested in systems which better serve their needs.

Best of luck

M

Scott Hersh said:

I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that
it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what
Canon is bringing in next. I know I would be happy with the D30
images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000
and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My
image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel,
portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. I just don't want
to be cursing everytime I go to shoot a subject. Most of you have
a love/hate relationship with your D30s and I think it would be all
love if the focus issue was right. If that's the case - and that's
where I want your feedback, I think I should wait for PMA and see
if Canon has solved the AF problem. I work for Professional
Photographer Magazine and will be at PMA to see what's up in about
a month. I have also heard from a reliable source that I should
wait for Canon's next. Even if the new Canon dslr is great there
will be time and price issues. That would lead me back to the D30
unless you guys feel strongly about the AF issue and then I will
take the D30 off the list.
Thanks for your honest feedback.
--
Scott

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Hi Scott,

My two cents for what its worth. If you're not in a rush, it might be interesting to wait. However, as someone else pointed out, it could be awhile before the new model is actually available (and who knows what it will really cost). In the meantime, the D30's are attractively priced (relatively speaking . For the interests you described, I don't think the autofocus will be a problem. Having said that, I'll share a few of my observations:

• The "speed" of the autofocus I don't find a significant handicap...

• The inability of the AF to "function at all" in low light I DO find a handicap, especially when I'm doing event work in a dimly lit room with moving subjects, etc. I just have to use manual focus (which is what I did for 25 years before getting my D30)...

• Using manual focus in low light is not easy for my old eyes with the plain focusing screen on the D30. As someone else said, the "split prism" screen (as on my film bodies) is much faster for me. Manual focus in those special circumstances where the AF is having difficulty may not be much of a problem for your eyes.

• I've never used the Rebel, so I can't compare the D30's AF to that camera. I will say that an A2's AF runs circles around the D30.

Overall, the D30 is a terrific camera when combined with decent glass. I don't think you'd regret buying one now, especially for outdoor work. Get it, use it, learn with it, enjoy it... You can always upgrade later and sell it or keep it as a second body....

Cheers,

Tony

Based on a number of posts on other sites and articles I read, it is more likely a result of the agreement that Canon had with Kodak when the D30 was in development, NOT to produce a "professional level" DSLR. They ended up "as one former poster mentioned" dummying down the auto focus hardware. As most engineer's know this could be reversed, but I doubt it would ever be done. This way indeed it leaves room for improvement in future models.

Tony Bonanno said:

• The inability of the AF to "function at all" in low light I DO

find a handicap, especially when I'm doing event work in a dimly
lit room with moving subjects, etc.

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When this happens it's almost embarrasing that a multi-thousand pound camera doesn't take pictures when all are standing smiling and waiting for the shot to fire off.

Yup, Canon better come up with something better next.

Ian.

Joe Hawblitzel said:

Scott,

I grew up with an SLR before the days of autofocus, so in a way
it's refreshing to (with a FT-M lens) to just touch the focus ring
if I'm unsure of the autofocus. The D30 isn't the only camera with
problems in low light/low contrast situations, probably just the
most expensive. (My Nikon CP-990 was awful.) I'm not that
bothered. Just a personal opinion, but I think autofocus produces
a lot of ruined pictures because people become too reliant on it.

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i get wat u mean but

1) D30's viewfinder is small and dark

2) D30 doesn't have a proper focusing screen, unlike Leica rangefinders or Nikon manual cameras

in low light, where the AF of the D30 usually falls short, the above factors make it really hard to manual focus with the D30. It could be due to my eyesight as well, but i could never get really focused shots when doing manual focus in very low light.
--Red Dawn

.

Ian Johnston said:

When this happens it's almost embarrasing that a multi-thousand
pound camera doesn't take pictures when all are standing smiling
and waiting for the shot to fire off.

Yup, Canon better come up with something better next.

Ian.

Click to expand...

How often do you have a group of people standing smiling

and waiting for the shot to fire off in a room so dimly lit that the D30 cannot focus??

Lee Rothman said:

Based on a number of posts on other sites and articles I read, it
is more likely a result of the agreement that Canon had with Kodak
when the D30 was in development, NOT to produce a "professional
level" DSLR. They ended up "as one former poster mentioned"
dummying down the auto focus hardware. As most engineer's know this
could be reversed, but I doubt it would ever be done. This way
indeed it leaves room for improvement in future models.

Click to expand...

You say it could be reversed. Do you mean Canon could have used someting other than Multi-BASIS, or do you think they could have overcome the engineering obstacles and implemented Multi-BASIS in a better way?

Prefixing your statment with "As most engineers know" implies that you have some special insight into the way Canon designs and builds it's cameras that the rest of us are not enilghtened about. If you have more to offer on this point, I'm all ears!

I know we all love conspiracy theories, but it's far more likeley that Canon used the same Multi-BASIS implementation as the EOS IX to keep the costs down. Engineering is full of trade-offs.

Several people have replied that the autofocus saves them in situations where they can't manually focus, i.e. dim light, poor eyesight, etc. I, too have astigmatism in my focusing eye. But what I don't understand is if you can't see to manually focus, how can you see that the autofocus is correct?

Red Dawn said:

Joe Hawblitzel said:

Scott,

I grew up with an SLR before the days of autofocus, so in a way
it's refreshing to (with a FT-M lens) to just touch the focus ring
if I'm unsure of the autofocus. The D30 isn't the only camera with
problems in low light/low contrast situations, probably just the
most expensive. (My Nikon CP-990 was awful.) I'm not that
bothered. Just a personal opinion, but I think autofocus produces
a lot of ruined pictures because people become too reliant on it.

Click to expand...

i get wat u mean but

1) D30's viewfinder is small and dark
2) D30 doesn't have a proper focusing screen, unlike Leica
rangefinders or Nikon manual cameras

in low light, where the AF of the D30 usually falls short, the
above factors make it really hard to manual focus with the D30. It
could be due to my eyesight as well, but i could never get really
focused shots when doing manual focus in very low light.

--
Red Dawn

Click to expand...

--Joe Hawblitzel

John and Ian both make good points, but unfortunately, that is exactly the problem... folks are aware that I'm taking their picture, and they are waiting for the flash to go off, and they wait, and they wait, and it is embarrassing .... There is obviously enough light for them to be aware of what's going on AND a camera in this price range with an ST-E2 on top for AF assist SHOULD work better! But I'm getting my eyes conditioned to using manual focus now Also, I do have the latest firmware 1.0.2.2 (and it did help a little), and I'm using Canon glass, etc. I've sent my D30 back to Canon to check exposure calibration, AF, and clean...

Cheers,

Tony

JohnM said:

JohnM31499 said:

When this happens it's almost embarrasing that a multi-thousand
pound camera doesn't take pictures when all are standing smiling
and waiting for the shot to fire off.

Yup, Canon better come up with something better next.

Ian.

Click to expand...

How often do you have a group of people standing smiling
and waiting for the shot to fire off in a room so dimly lit that
the D30 cannot focus??

Click to expand...

Th autofocus is worse on the D30 than on your son's Rebel 2000. Wait if you can.

-A happy D30 owner looking forward to having a camera that can focus itself 50% of the time.

Scott Hersh said:

I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that
it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what
Canon is bringing in next. I know I would be happy with the D30
images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000
and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My
image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel,
portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. I just don't want
to be cursing everytime I go to shoot a subject. Most of you have
a love/hate relationship with your D30s and I think it would be all
love if the focus issue was right. If that's the case - and that's
where I want your feedback, I think I should wait for PMA and see
if Canon has solved the AF problem. I work for Professional
Photographer Magazine and will be at PMA to see what's up in about
a month. I have also heard from a reliable source that I should
wait for Canon's next. Even if the new Canon dslr is great there
will be time and price issues. That would lead me back to the D30
unless you guys feel strongly about the AF issue and then I will
take the D30 off the list.
Thanks for your honest feedback.
--
Scott

Click to expand...

" defending it's shortcomings is down right silly. I'd rather folks had a clear idea of what they are spending their money on."

I totally agree. People that suggest "workarounds" and "make-dos" boggle my mind. As does the brilliant thinking that because people gripe about the autofocus system on a $3,000 camera being worse than on a $500 camera, that means their photography skills are lacking. Explain that one. There are no points awarded for effort. The photographer that works around his weak system is a better photographer because of that?? Right.

tommc said:

Michael Thomas Mitchell said:

To the originator of this thread... portrait and landscape
photography won't exactly test the limits of any auto focus system.
The D30 system works... it's just not high performance. Knowing how
to use it -- and most importantly, when to turn it off and shoot
manually -- will be the key to success. You shouldn't be limited
unless you shoot sports or other fast moving subject matter.
Whether or not the D30 AF system is inferior to the Rebel 2000
system is best left to those who have the time to sit in their
living room with both cameras and a stopwatch, taking photos of
their toes on low light (before and after firmware updates!). If
you concentrate on real photography, you'll learn its
characteristics and how to get the AF to work for you. The whiners
have transformed the AF performance of the D30 into a disease. It's
not. I'll generalize here -- and open myself up for flames -- and
suggest that, in general, I tend to observe less whining from the
more capable photographers. Perhaps they, wisely, are simply
spending more of their time shooting great photos, or have merely
invested in systems which better serve their needs.

Best of luck

M

Scott Hersh said:

I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that
it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what
Canon is bringing in next. I know I would be happy with the D30
images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000
and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My
image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel,
portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. I just don't want
to be cursing everytime I go to shoot a subject. Most of you have
a love/hate relationship with your D30s and I think it would be all
love if the focus issue was right. If that's the case - and that's
where I want your feedback, I think I should wait for PMA and see
if Canon has solved the AF problem. I work for Professional
Photographer Magazine and will be at PMA to see what's up in about
a month. I have also heard from a reliable source that I should
wait for Canon's next. Even if the new Canon dslr is great there
will be time and price issues. That would lead me back to the D30
unless you guys feel strongly about the AF issue and then I will
take the D30 off the list.
Thanks for your honest feedback.
--
Scott

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

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Richard Smith said:

I know we all love conspiracy theories, but it's far more likeley
that Canon used the same Multi-BASIS implementation as the EOS IX
to keep the costs down. Engineering is full of trade-offs.

Click to expand...

Exactly Richard. They already had the parts, why wouldn't they use them to keep costs down. Designing a new AF system would have made the D30 more expensive. Aside from the CMOS sensor, the most signifcant feature of the D30 is its low price compared to other DSLRs. It is now about the price of a Nikon 4000 film scanner and an Elan 7. They even throw in a microdrive and extra battery. With a film based SLR you will be spending a large amount of money for film and processing.

Trenton said:

" defending it's shortcomings is down right silly. I'd rather
folks had a clear idea of what they are spending their money on."

I totally agree. People that suggest "workarounds" and "make-dos"
boggle my mind. As does the brilliant thinking that because people
gripe about the autofocus system on a $3,000 camera being worse
than on a $500 camera, that means their photography skills are
lacking. Explain that one. There are no points awarded for
effort. The photographer that works around his weak system is a
better photographer because of that?? Right.

Click to expand...

The D30 is not a $3000 camera, it is really a $2000 film camera at this point. Your $500 camera is also a $2000 when you add the price of the scanner. Once you start using that film camera it becomes much more expensive than the D30.