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AutoFocus - Just How Bad?

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I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what Canon is bringing in next. I know I would be happy with the D30 images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000 and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel, portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. I just don't want to be cursing everytime I go to shoot a subject. Most of you have a love/hate relationship with your D30s and I think it would be all love if the focus issue was right. If that's the case - and that's where I want your feedback, I think I should wait for PMA and see if Canon has solved the AF problem. I work for Professional Photographer Magazine and will be at PMA to see what's up in about a month. I have also heard from a reliable source that I should wait for Canon's next. Even if the new Canon dslr is great there will be time and price issues. That would lead me back to the D30 unless you guys feel strongly about the AF issue and then I will take the D30 off the list.
Thanks for your honest feedback. --Scott
 
Given that the wait will be about a month, at this point I would wait.

Andrew
Scott Hersh said:
I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that
it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what
Canon is bringing in next. I know I would be happy with the D30
images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000
and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My
image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel,
portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. I just don't want
to be cursing everytime I go to shoot a subject. Most of you have
a love/hate relationship with your D30s and I think it would be all
love if the focus issue was right. If that's the case - and that's
where I want your feedback, I think I should wait for PMA and see
if Canon has solved the AF problem. I work for Professional
Photographer Magazine and will be at PMA to see what's up in about
a month. I have also heard from a reliable source that I should
wait for Canon's next. Even if the new Canon dslr is great there
will be time and price issues. That would lead me back to the D30
unless you guys feel strongly about the AF issue and then I will
take the D30 off the list.
Thanks for your honest feedback.
--
Scott
Click to expand...
 
It's workable. But it's probably comparable to the Rebel. For the uses you describe, I'd think it'd be adequate.

Waiting for the next announced camera is certainly advisable, but as you pointed out, it'd probably be 6 months to a year after the announcement before you could actually purchase one.
Scott Hersh said:
I know I would be happy with the D30
images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000
and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My
image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel,

portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. --The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Click to expand...
 
Scott,

I grew up with an SLR before the days of autofocus, so in a way it's refreshing to (with a FT-M lens) to just touch the focus ring if I'm unsure of the autofocus. The D30 isn't the only camera with problems in low light/low contrast situations, probably just the most expensive. (My Nikon CP-990 was awful.) I'm not that bothered. Just a personal opinion, but I think autofocus produces a lot of ruined pictures because people become too reliant on it.
Scott Hersh said:
I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that
it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what
Canon is bringing in next. I know I would be happy with the D30
images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000
and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My
image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel,
portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. I just don't want
to be cursing everytime I go to shoot a subject. Most of you have
a love/hate relationship with your D30s and I think it would be all
love if the focus issue was right. If that's the case - and that's
where I want your feedback, I think I should wait for PMA and see
if Canon has solved the AF problem. I work for Professional
Photographer Magazine and will be at PMA to see what's up in about
a month. I have also heard from a reliable source that I should
wait for Canon's next. Even if the new Canon dslr is great there
will be time and price issues. That would lead me back to the D30
unless you guys feel strongly about the AF issue and then I will
take the D30 off the list.
Thanks for your honest feedback.
--
Scott
Click to expand...
--Joe Hawblitzel
 
Scott Hersh said:
I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that
it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what
Canon is bringing in next. I know I would be happy with the D30
images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000
and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My
image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel,
portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. I just don't want
to be cursing everytime I go to shoot a subject. Most of you have
a love/hate relationship with your D30s and I think it would be all
love if the focus issue was right. If that's the case - and that's
where I want your feedback, I think I should wait for PMA and see
if Canon has solved the AF problem. I work for Professional
Photographer Magazine and will be at PMA to see what's up in about
a month. I have also heard from a reliable source that I should
wait for Canon's next. Even if the new Canon dslr is great there
will be time and price issues. That would lead me back to the D30
unless you guys feel strongly about the AF issue and then I will
take the D30 off the list.
Thanks for your honest feedback.
--
Scott
Click to expand...
 
Joe Hawblitzel said:
Scott,

I grew up with an SLR before the days of autofocus, so in a way
it's refreshing to (with a FT-M lens) to just touch the focus ring
if I'm unsure of the autofocus. The D30 isn't the only camera with
problems in low light/low contrast situations, probably just the
most expensive. (My Nikon CP-990 was awful.) I'm not that
bothered. Just a personal opinion, but I think autofocus produces
a lot of ruined pictures because people become too reliant on it.
Click to expand...
I agree Joe. I grew up shooting with a NikonF(full manual), so the ease of manual focusing Canon EF lens was a big plus for me. The AF speed on the D30 is slow for an slr, but it is definitely lightning fast compared to a p&s digital camera. I have owned a Nikon 950, Nikon 880, Nikon 5000, Canon G2, Olympus 2000 & an Olympus 2500L. The D30 AF is WAY faster than any of those choices.

I also owned the very first edition of the Minolta Maxxum some years back. You want to talk about crappy AF, that camera would refuse to focus on a mountain range in broad daylight at 3:00 in the afternoon!!
 
I know I'm very reliant on AF. Primarily becasue I can't see the entire viewfinder without my glasses, and I have an astigmatism (which the built-in diopter correction can't fix).

Without some sort of split-focus aid in the viewfinder, the AF on almost any SLR is superior to what I can do (especially with just a matte screen like the D-30).
Joe Hawblitzel said:
Just a personal opinion, but I think autofocus produces
a lot of ruined pictures because people become too reliant on it.
Click to expand...
--The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
 
I have a similar problem to you. Wnen I first got my manual focus only 24/3.5 L TS/E I found focusing it in low light was a problem. The magnifier on the Angle Finder C is very helpful, my shots are now in focus.
DavidP said:
Without some sort of split-focus aid in the viewfinder, the AF on
almost any SLR is superior to what I can do (especially with just a
matte screen like the D-30).
Joe Hawblitzel said:
Just a personal opinion, but I think autofocus produces
a lot of ruined pictures because people become too reliant on it.
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Click to expand...
 
The Angle-Finder C is a great solution for many types of shots.

Unfortunately, for the stuff I do most (concert shots), it's not very practical.

I finally found (and ordered) the EP-EX15 (eyepiece extender). Though it won't make it any easier to AufoFocus (since the image will now appear smaller), at least (I hope) I'll be able to use the camera while wearing my glasses. I am so tired of having to take them off, put them back on, etc. during a concert.
Andrew Grant said:
I have a similar problem to you. Wnen I first got my manual focus
only 24/3.5 L TS/E I found focusing it in low light was a problem.
The magnifier on the Angle Finder C is very helpful, my shots are
now in focus.

--The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Click to expand...
 
Scott the D-30 is a great camera, but, you are right bad AF leads to love hate relationship. Waiting a month or so would be a good idea. I hope something is annouced by then or my next digital camera will be a ni...a nik..oh I can't even bring myself to say it.
Tom
Scott Hersh said:
I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that
it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what
Canon is bringing in next. I know I would be happy with the D30
images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000
and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My
image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel,
portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. I just don't want
to be cursing everytime I go to shoot a subject. Most of you have
a love/hate relationship with your D30s and I think it would be all
love if the focus issue was right. If that's the case - and that's
where I want your feedback, I think I should wait for PMA and see
if Canon has solved the AF problem. I work for Professional
Photographer Magazine and will be at PMA to see what's up in about
a month. I have also heard from a reliable source that I should
wait for Canon's next. Even if the new Canon dslr is great there
will be time and price issues. That would lead me back to the D30
unless you guys feel strongly about the AF issue and then I will
take the D30 off the list.
Thanks for your honest feedback.
--
Scott
Click to expand...
 
Scott Hersh said:
I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that
it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what
Canon is bringing in next.
Click to expand...
I don't know, I guess it is all relative. I came to the D30 from consumer cameras like the G1 and Fuji 2400's and Nikon 950's and the like. The D30 is so much quicker, so much more accurate, so much better than consumer cameras that I thought the complainers on here were just exaggerating. However, like I said, it is all relative. In the fast shooting world of the professional fast accurate auto focus is the difference between getting the shot and not.

I am not at that level and the D30 is heaven to me. If the auto focus is not spot on, I can adjust it manually like any other SLR. That is the major difference between this camera and everything else. It is just worlds better. I would go for one, if I were you. They are cheap and available now and come with an extra year of warranty and a free battery and microdrive. Whatever you get for the D30 will work just fine with future cameras so it is a good investment. If something better comes along you will still be glad to fall back on the D30.--Dave Lewis
 
I'm typically rather soft-spoken in my posts, and I mean no offense to the poster of this question in particular, but when all the whining and belly-aching about the D30 AF system infects even those who havn't bought the camera yet, I start to get a little disgusted. I have no loyalty to Canon or the D30 -- and use it and enjoy it, and it serves my needs. The only I wish it had were an illuminated LCD panel. Big deal. I also shoot with a Nikon D1 and D1x, which has a stellar auto focus system. And since I've been shooting with these bodies for so long, I should be absolutely spoiled by it, and subsequently frustrated by the D30 focus system. I'm not. I simply learned how to use the D30 system.

To the originator of this thread... portrait and landscape photography won't exactly test the limits of any auto focus system. The D30 system works... it's just not high performance. Knowing how to use it -- and most importantly, when to turn it off and shoot manually -- will be the key to success. You shouldn't be limited unless you shoot sports or other fast moving subject matter. Whether or not the D30 AF system is inferior to the Rebel 2000 system is best left to those who have the time to sit in their living room with both cameras and a stopwatch, taking photos of their toes on low light (before and after firmware updates!). If you concentrate on real photography, you'll learn its characteristics and how to get the AF to work for you. The whiners have transformed the AF performance of the D30 into a disease. It's not. I'll generalize here -- and open myself up for flames -- and suggest that, in general, I tend to observe less whining from the more capable photographers. Perhaps they, wisely, are simply spending more of their time shooting great photos, or have merely invested in systems which better serve their needs.

Best of luck

M
Scott Hersh said:
I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that
it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what
Canon is bringing in next. I know I would be happy with the D30
images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000
and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My
image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel,
portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. I just don't want
to be cursing everytime I go to shoot a subject. Most of you have
a love/hate relationship with your D30s and I think it would be all
love if the focus issue was right. If that's the case - and that's
where I want your feedback, I think I should wait for PMA and see
if Canon has solved the AF problem. I work for Professional
Photographer Magazine and will be at PMA to see what's up in about
a month. I have also heard from a reliable source that I should
wait for Canon's next. Even if the new Canon dslr is great there
will be time and price issues. That would lead me back to the D30
unless you guys feel strongly about the AF issue and then I will
take the D30 off the list.
Thanks for your honest feedback.
--
Scott
Click to expand...
 
Your analysis is excellent. The D30 AF is actually somewhat worse than a Rebel, but quite adequate, that is, if you take the long view and compare it with what was available in the 80's or early 90's.

The truth is that Canon took the AF system that they used for the Elan and later the Rebel models (called Multi-BASIS) and adapted it to work with the D30 as a cost-saving measure. However the BASIS sensors reach their threshold when confronted with the fact that the D30 CMOS sensor is quite a bit smaller than 35mm film, therefore the amount of light traveling through the "optical box" is less by an order of magnitude. Another popular theory is that the smaller optical pathway means that the mirror has to send more light to the viewfinder, which forces the AF sensors to work that much harder.

Therefore if you use the Rebel's AF as a benchmark, the D30 is poorer by a full EV (or stop), some say two full EV's. This means that the D30 will "hunt" for focus in many lighting situations that the Rebel will handle just fine. At least, this is my approximation of the whole thing, based on a year with the D30 and hanging around these forums.
 
Richard Smith said:
However the BASIS
sensors reach their threshold when confronted with the fact that
the D30 CMOS sensor is quite a bit smaller than 35mm film,
therefore the amount of light traveling through the "optical box"
is less by an order of magnitude.
Click to expand...
I don't think that is the way the AF on the D30 works. Maybe you're thinking metering...

The light going to the AF does not come from the CMOS. It has a path from the mirror. The CMOS is not an excuse for the poor AF. Canon simply cut corners or crippled it intentionally.

 
ApePlanetMuncher said:
The light going to the AF does not come from the CMOS. It has a
path from the mirror. The CMOS is not an excuse for the poor AF.
Canon simply cut corners or crippled it intentionally.
Click to expand...
As I said in another thread...

This reminds me of all the theories about who shot JFK. There is no evidence that Canon "dumbed down" the D30's AF module. There is evidence which suggests that Canon simply used some existing parts from the discontinued EOS IX which was an APS SLR. It is not hard to imagine why. The D30 sensor is almost the size of an APS frame. The APS AF module was probably the only one Canon already had which would work with the D30 sensor. It looks like the shutter is from the same camera. It would not shock me to learn other parts from that camera were also used.
 
So are you still maintaing that the AF works from light coming off the CMOS? The diagram canon supplied of the d30 internals indicates otherwise.

On the other note, I don't necessarily subscribe to the conspiracy theory, but I won't discount it entirely either.
Andrew Grant said:
ApePlanetMuncher said:
The light going to the AF does not come from the CMOS. It has a
path from the mirror. The CMOS is not an excuse for the poor AF.
Canon simply cut corners or crippled it intentionally.
Click to expand...
As I said in another thread...

This reminds me of all the theories about who shot JFK. There is no
evidence that Canon "dumbed down" the D30's AF module. There is
evidence which suggests that Canon simply used some existing parts
from the discontinued EOS IX which was an APS SLR. It is not hard
to imagine why. The D30 sensor is almost the size of an APS frame.
The APS AF module was probably the only one Canon already had which
would work with the D30 sensor. It looks like the shutter is from
the same camera. It would not shock me to learn other parts from
that camera were also used.
Click to expand...
 
Excellent post, Michael.

Every camera has it's peculiararities, which requires the user to compensate. If the D30 did everything, there would be little skills required of the user. Award-winning photographs have been taken with lesser cameras.

My advice to the original poster is to buy the D30. The image quality alone is worth the money.

TBoyd

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=550491&uid=45287
Michael Thomas Mitchell said:
To the originator of this thread... portrait and landscape
photography won't exactly test the limits of any auto focus system.
The D30 system works... it's just not high performance. Knowing how
to use it -- and most importantly, when to turn it off and shoot
manually -- will be the key to success. You shouldn't be limited
unless you shoot sports or other fast moving subject matter.
Whether or not the D30 AF system is inferior to the Rebel 2000
system is best left to those who have the time to sit in their
living room with both cameras and a stopwatch, taking photos of
their toes on low light (before and after firmware updates!). If
you concentrate on real photography, you'll learn its
characteristics and how to get the AF to work for you. The whiners
have transformed the AF performance of the D30 into a disease. It's
not. I'll generalize here -- and open myself up for flames -- and
suggest that, in general, I tend to observe less whining from the
more capable photographers. Perhaps they, wisely, are simply
spending more of their time shooting great photos, or have merely
invested in systems which better serve their needs.

Best of luck

M
Scott Hersh said:
I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that
it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what
Canon is bringing in next. I know I would be happy with the D30
images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000
and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My
image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel,
portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. I just don't want
to be cursing everytime I go to shoot a subject. Most of you have
a love/hate relationship with your D30s and I think it would be all
love if the focus issue was right. If that's the case - and that's
where I want your feedback, I think I should wait for PMA and see
if Canon has solved the AF problem. I work for Professional
Photographer Magazine and will be at PMA to see what's up in about
a month. I have also heard from a reliable source that I should
wait for Canon's next. Even if the new Canon dslr is great there
will be time and price issues. That would lead me back to the D30
unless you guys feel strongly about the AF issue and then I will
take the D30 off the list.
Thanks for your honest feedback.
--
Scott
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Joe Hawblitzel said:
I grew up with an SLR before the days of autofocus, so in a way
it's refreshing to (with a FT-M lens) to just touch the focus ring
if I'm unsure of the autofocus. The D30 isn't the only camera with
problems in low light/low contrast situations, probably just the
most expensive. (My Nikon CP-990 was awful.) I'm not that
bothered. Just a personal opinion, but I think autofocus produces
a lot of ruined pictures because people become too reliant on it.
Scott Hersh said:
I have been following this forum for several weeks in the hope that
it would lead me to decide to buy the D30 now or wait to see what
Canon is bringing in next. I know I would be happy with the D30
images, but the autofocus issue spooks me. My son has a Rebel 2000
and I know from using it, that hard to focus AF is no fun. My
image work is landscape - early or late day shooting, travel,
portrait and some indoor with normal lighting. I just don't want
to be cursing everytime I go to shoot a subject. Most of you have
a love/hate relationship with your D30s and I think it would be all
love if the focus issue was right. If that's the case - and that's
where I want your feedback, I think I should wait for PMA and see
if Canon has solved the AF problem. I work for Professional
Photographer Magazine and will be at PMA to see what's up in about
a month. I have also heard from a reliable source that I should
wait for Canon's next. Even if the new Canon dslr is great there
will be time and price issues. That would lead me back to the D30
unless you guys feel strongly about the AF issue and then I will
take the D30 off the list.
Thanks for your honest feedback.
--
Scott
Click to expand...
--
Joe Hawblitzel
Click to expand...
I support Joe 100% on his comments. The AF on my old Canon A1 and Olympus OM4 was dreadful but I managed OK on manual. In fact on looking at my VERY old transparencied the other night some had bad exposure problems (maybe I should have thown them out years ago but when I get my scanner ........... :) but none were out of focus which must meen something--KRsBryanCanon D30 (Also CP990 for hill walking)
 
ApePlanetMuncher said:
So are you still maintaing that the AF works from light coming off
the CMOS? The diagram canon supplied of the d30 internals
indicates otherwise.
Click to expand...
???? You must be confusing me with someone else. I have never suggested the D30 imager was involved, it can't be since it is behind a closed shutter.
glowluzid said:
On the other note, I don't necessarily subscribe to the conspiracy
theory, but I won't discount it entirely either.
Click to expand...
I do. Like most conspiracy theories, I beleive it is nonsense.
glowluzid said:
Andrew Grant said:
ApePlanetMuncher said:
The light going to the AF does not come from the CMOS. It has a
path from the mirror. The CMOS is not an excuse for the poor AF.
Canon simply cut corners or crippled it intentionally.
Click to expand...
As I said in another thread...

This reminds me of all the theories about who shot JFK. There is no
evidence that Canon "dumbed down" the D30's AF module. There is
evidence which suggests that Canon simply used some existing parts
from the discontinued EOS IX which was an APS SLR. It is not hard
to imagine why. The D30 sensor is almost the size of an APS frame.
The APS AF module was probably the only one Canon already had which
would work with the D30 sensor. It looks like the shutter is from
the same camera. It would not shock me to learn other parts from
that camera were also used.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I never said that light falling on the CMOS in any ways affects the AF sensors. What I said was that the overall amount of light that enters the optical system of the camera is less. The mirror and viewfinder pentaprism are both scaled down in proportion to the CMOS.

As Andrew said, the D30 is the same as the EOS IX APS in this respect. But I fear Andrew may be right in that attempts to have a meaningful discussion on the topic are difficult and may be of dubious value.
 
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