more rangefinder?

Sticking d-media nto a cmaera w/o lectronic linkages, w/o autofocus, etc is retrograde. Leica went this way .. I suspect .. because they had no other way to preserve the use of their lenses.
--
Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com
 
A great! that's why they have problems making RF camera's.

Is the angle of the sensors getting better and better over the last years or are they only working on more megapixel and image quality?
 
A great! that's why they have problems making RF camera's.
Is the angle of the sensors getting better and better over the last
years or are they only working on more megapixel and image quality?
The angle is getting better. It's not really been a hot research topic. Existing sensors are already good enough for small sensor DSLRs, so progress only happens when companies try to improve large sensor DSLRs or rangefinders.

Leica first used my offset microlenses in the Modul-R, and supposedly Canon did in 1Ds II. So M8 will be the third camera with this kind of technology, but the first rangefinder.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
I do not believe it.
LOL
A MODERN, cheaply made Rf could easily put out its ranging data as
digital info.
And you think in a precision optical range-finder, that somehow digitises the range data, processes it, giving instant feedback to the VF to allow MF is going to be cheap?

I can't see it myself, opto-electronic coupling is a possibility but to provide the sort of rapid positive feedback needed it would be much more expensive than a simple mechanical cam.

Remember also that you will still need a highly accurate RF mechanism, so all you system saves would be say a couple of dollars and cost millions to implement.

In 1978 Leica cheapened the range finder on their M4-2 by taking out corrective lenses and condensers.

The result was a RF that was harder to focus because of increased flare and frankly no-where near as good as earlier M's.

The flare finder stayed in production 'till the later M6, so they saved a few $$ and made a worse product.

I love my Leica especially for social photography, where I can fit it in my pocket with collapsable lens and take pictures unnoticed, it was the best $500 I ever spent on a camera!
Observe and not be observed!

 
As for the ludicous price of the M8, I really wonder who is buying
these. Are professionals buying them or collectors?
Neither. Dentists and other high budget "weekend warriors".
kind of a catty comment, joe! why pick on dentists[not that i'm a big fan of them]? anyway, i am acquainted with a couple of dozen pros of various stripes, and nearly half of them have either a rangefinder or some other piece of quirky and somewhat expensive gear. they use them for their personal work, or as a refreshment from their daily grind. matbe the pros in my area [balto/wash corridor] ar very different from those in your area.
 
Why worry about a rangefinder if focussing can be done better electronically.

Isn't the need more for an accurate optical viewfinder, with frame size and parallax correction as the lens zooms? It's the bright, accurate optical view that is needed, when the light washes out the LCD. Who needs the focus stuff? Once you get into the telephoto range, it's better done electronically anyway.
 
Except focus, maybe. It's generally accepted that a well-aligned
mechanical rangefinder, focused manually, provides better focus
than an electronic auto system.
Hmmm.... I wonder how well this will hold up with sensors having relatively high resolution (70lp/mm and better).

Right now, I find that AF on the high lp/mm Olympus DSLRs gives very accurate focus. Split prism manual focus is definitely less good at delivering accurate focus.
That's one of the reasons we still
have rangefinder cameras at all today. I'm not saying "faster"
focus, but I am saying "better," as in "sharper". Also, the
pleasures and special capabilities of a good, bright optical finder
haven't yet been matched by EVFs, at least any that I have yet seen
or read about.
Sure, but you could always mount a secondary optical viewfinder on a digital.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Why worry about a rangefinder if focussing can be done better
electronically.

Isn't the need more for an accurate optical viewfinder, with frame
size and parallax correction as the lens zooms? It's the bright,
accurate optical view that is needed, when the light washes out the
LCD. Who needs the focus stuff? Once you get into the telephoto
range, it's better done electronically anyway.
Show me an accurate OVF. Rangefinders exist today.
--
Never trust a man who spells the word 'cheese' with a 'z'
 
--
Never trust a man who spells the word 'cheese' with a 'z'
 
1. coupling ..

these days digital is likley to be chaeper ad esp easier to adapt to dofferent lenses.

2. I agree about the Leica. A version fo the M* for about 1K, maybe 2K, would by my interest.
--
Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com
 
As I understand your postings, the reason for your optics is to allow the lens to be locates at a greater distance from the senbsor than is true with film. Yes?

This makes sense but only fo one assumes the RF will use existong lenses. OTOH, if someone started with new lenses, adapting a RF top a dig camera should nto be so hard .. no?
--
Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com
 
Except focus, maybe. It's generally accepted that a well-aligned
mechanical rangefinder, focused manually, provides better focus
than an electronic auto system.
Hmmm.... I wonder how well this will hold up with sensors having
relatively high resolution (70lp/mm and better).

Right now, I find that AF on the high lp/mm Olympus DSLRs gives
very accurate focus. Split prism manual focus is definitely less
good at delivering accurate focus.
That's one of the reasons we still
have rangefinder cameras at all today. I'm not saying "faster"
focus, but I am saying "better," as in "sharper". Also, the
pleasures and special capabilities of a good, bright optical finder
haven't yet been matched by EVFs, at least any that I have yet seen
or read about.
Sure, but you could always mount a secondary optical viewfinder on
a digital.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
To be honest, I don't know how well it would hold up with such a high-res focusing sensor. What I do know is that there are, at least for me, some disadvantages with automatic focusing, especially in low-light situations. All the resolution in the world doesn't really help when one is trying to focus a slow-ish (say f/3.5 max) lens in a fairly dark room without a decent focus assist lamp. A mechanical RF should have the same focus speed in such a situation whether it has an f/1.5 lens or an f/3.5 lens on it. An electronically focussing camera might be slower with the slower lens.

Many RFs have a bright enough focus patch that finding focus in such situations may be easier (my Olympus XA is NOT one of them ^ ^ ). At the very least, many who would be likely to be using an RF camera in the first place might simply preset their intended shooting aperture and focus for the purposes of speed and of being inconspicuous. Many modern AF assist lamps are not inconspicuous anymore. I know one could also preset such values on other types of cameras as well, but I think a large percentage of the RF user base would argue that if you're going to be doing that anyway, why bother having all the other stuff weighing you down or eating battery power or whatever.

The same goes for a secondary VF on a digi. I'm not at all saying you're wrong or that one way is better than the other, but I am suggesting that many RF fans don't want to add an accessory piece as, to them, the whole point of using such a contraption as an RF camera is to simplify.

I think what I'm getting at is that, for allot of RF users, one of the principle draws is that the camera can be preconfigured in such a way that all that is needed to grab a shot is to quickly raise the camera to the eye, frame, and trip the shutter. No waiting for the AF to lock, no checking a screen. Photography with a camera like a Leica M (say that fast, it's funny sounding) is probably as quick as such things get and would not get any quicker with more electronics.

Moreover, I think the manufacturers of today's RFs are aware of what the presumed bulk of RF users expect and wouldn't be very eager to devote any resources to making something those folks might actually not buy on general principle. Somebody else here used the term "cult," which probably isn't too far off the mark for many RF types. ^ ^

The Customer
 
1. coupling ..
these days digital is likley to be chaeper ad esp easier to adapt
to dofferent lenses.
No 'fraid not as it would have to be a hybrid system and you would still need the mechanical range finder, my guess is a leica with your system would be 3-4 times the price due to the complexity of the RF-digutal interface.
2. I agree about the Leica. A version fo the M* for about 1K,
maybe 2K, would by my interest.
LOL a Bentley at $20K would interest me! but if you want you can have a used M for the prices you quote. the trouble is that RF is useful for only a small subset of photography that guarantees that the amount sold will be less than 10K per year even if they were only hundreds of dollars as RFs main feature is it's 'manualness'.
That is something Joe public can't see value in
 
I do not agree on the RF::zoom issue. If one could create acompact
camera with zoom and RF ot would be wonderful. I am, however, not
sure there is a good way to tie a RF to a zoom unless the linkage
were digital. But that should be doable. The outcome, as you
point out, would proabbly not be Leica lens comaptible but ti would
be small and fast.
--
Stephen M Schwartz
SeattleJew.blogspot.com
You're probably not the only one who would like a zoom on such a camera, but in my other posts, I'm suggesting that a large percentage, if not a majority, of rangefinder users and potential buyers wouldn't want a zoom, as the main reason they're using an RF camera in the first place is to pursue quality via simplicity. They're using an RF because, among other things, they don't want to use a zoom.

I know this is not likely to be true for everyone who picks up an RF, but I imagine that the numbers for whom it IS true are great enough that a company like Zeiss or Leica or Cosina are less likely to want to invest R&D resources in an optical system that might not only appeal to a minority, but also might risk alienating a fairly discriminating majority.

The Customer
 
One of the big selling points of rangefinders is that you can have small, extremely high quality wide angle lenses since retrofocal designs are not needed. Using retrofocal lenses would get around the problems caused by the light hitting the sensor at extreme angles but you would be back to using the same massive lenses SLR users put up with and you would have lost a big selling point of the rangefinder design.

There are ways to minimise the problem while retaining the same lens designs but they all cost a lot of money. Offset microlenses is probably the cheapest compromise, back illumination would work better but the cost of the sensor and therefore the camera would skyrocket. Leica and Kodak have come up with a workable solution at a reasonable (although still high) price. I doubt there are other ways of making a digital rangefinder that wouldn't involve even bigger compromises on price, quality or useability.
 

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