Fuji s9000 vs DSLR: always a

Well, if you mean comparable in regards to DOF you would need to go
to f/11 to get the same DOF as f/2.8 on a S9000 due to the
differences in sensor size.
OK, I hadn't actually calculated it yet. So on those shots that you take at f4 or f5.6 with a dslr, you could also get by with 2.8 on the point and shoot to stick with the lower ISO. That's great, so thank you for the confirmation. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks for providing that, it's about as I expected.
This is of course a double edged sword
in that getting narrow DOF is many situations is nearly impossible
with a small sensor camera.
Yes, and I NEVER stated otherwise I hope. :)
remarks from many many people on these forums, yet only can
remember two people (videoguy and RayN) who are always looking for
more DOF, or who felt it was an important enough factor to resort
to using a small sensor camera over a DSLR.
Hey, you're doing the same thing as Kim now. hehe I never said that this issue alone made me resort to a smalls sensor cameras, only that it narrows the gap or takes away the DSLR's otherwise big advantage in low light. But in the post I made about often preferring the point and shoot, it was other issues other than DOF in low light that made me often prefer the point and shoot. But I never made a blank statement that I preferred a point and shoot over DSLRs in general. As noted many times, I realize the preflash issue doesn't cause lazy eyes on DSLRs with preflash delays under 100ms, so that particular reason would go away with some DSLRs.
For you and a few others obviously, the P&S is a viable solution
for your DOF problem, most pros have ways of getting what they need
out of DSLR's.
I can get what I need to out of a DSLR, but I also know when the advantage is not as great as it would be otherwise. :)
Also, for the record, I looked through my SB800 manual, it does
list the AFLock feature as the solution for fast blinking people
and animals.
Ah yes, I've posted this workaround many times also, but it's not just SB800 specific. It works simply because it eliminates the preflash you normally get right before the main flash, which is just a charactoristic of the AE lock function which is intended to lock exposure, even on cameras that still preflash when using it. Locking exposure is the point, and no preflash is a side benefit, and it's good that Nikon realized it was a problem in some of their DSLRs. I'm sure that's one of the reasons they came up with a "real" solution and speeded things up with the D80 replacement of the D70. There are various workarounds with other brands as well. The true solution remains a faster performance, such as in D80 and D200 over the slower D70 and KM/Sony & Pentax DSLRs.
 
I forgot to add, in the begining when I mentioned using f/11 to get
comparable DOF,
I'm sure I specifically stated earlier than I wasn't talking about stopping down to F10 or higher necessarily. Even a DSLR shot at f4 or f5.6 could be taken at 2.8 on the point and shoot, so no need to take it to the extreme. Think about realworld shots. F4 & F5.6 is not unreasonable, scan your photos, and I bet you find some. :)

One example, I can take a shot of 2 people in low light using f2.8, and one will be out of focus just slightly behind the other. So you stop down and increase ISO on the DSLR. Same shot works at 2.8 on point and shoot. This isn't an opinion, it's an experience that can be easily reproduced. Just be clear, are you stating that you are using f2.8 or larger aperture on all of your DSLR shots?
I really think your DOF argument is a non issue
It's not meant to be an argument, just pointing out a situation where the DSLR doesn't have as much of an advantage in low light. I never made any global claims that DSLRs are worse in this area in spit of what others might have claimed. Read my earlier posts if you have any doubts, they are still there.
 
In "spite" of what others might claim. Argh! I wish I could edit my posts. I type too quickly and make typos and dont usually carefully proofread.
 
Comments in text:
I forgot to add, in the begining when I mentioned using f/11 to get
comparable DOF,
I'm sure I specifically stated earlier than I wasn't talking about
stopping down to F10 or higher necessarily. Even a DSLR shot at f4
or f5.6 could be taken at 2.8 on the point and shoot, so no need to
take it to the extreme. Think about realworld shots. F4 & F5.6 is
not unreasonable, scan your photos, and I bet you find some. :)
I shoot in the f/2.8 to f/8 range regularly, as I pointed out in another post, if the difference is only one stop (which is what your saying) I will take the DSLR any day of the week. If the difference is more than one stop, your doing something wrong. I cant envision a situation where it would be necessary to stop down much to get good focus on a group, all my group photos are wider angle (less than 50mm, usually 24mm or less) at which the hyperfocal distance of the lens is very small.
One example, I can take a shot of 2 people in low light using f2.8,
and one will be out of focus just slightly behind the other. So
you stop down and increase ISO on the DSLR. Same shot works at 2.8
on point and shoot. This isn't an opinion, it's an experience that
can be easily reproduced. Just be clear, are you stating that you
are using f2.8 or larger aperture on all of your DSLR shots?
Again, that would be ridiculous, of course I dont always shoot at f/2.8, what I am saying is a still do not see an advantage to using a P&S in this situation, unless you simply like that extra tolerance for photographer error.
I really think your DOF argument is a non issue
It's not meant to be an argument, just pointing out a situation
where the DSLR doesn't have as much of an advantage in low light. I
never made any global claims that DSLRs are worse in this area in
spit of what others might have claimed. Read my earlier posts if
you have any doubts, they are still there.
So to be accurate, what you are saying is that the DSLR HAS an advantage over the P&S, just not as much of an advantage, but you opt "often" for the P&S regardless of the fact that its disadvantaged. Thats odd but I can agree with it. In fact, its exactly what I have been saying, the DSLR is a better tool for this, just not as much better as you might think.

The odd part is that you "often" prefer the wrong tool for the job. I bet you pound nails with a crescent wrench at times, turn nuts with pliers, come on admit it, we have all done it a few times. But rarely is one so bold as to state that they actually "often" prefer to pound nails with a wrench.
Take care, I commend your honesty, :)

Ted

--
http://photobucket.com/albums/y260/tdkd13/
 
I shoot in the f/2.8 to f/8 range regularly, as I pointed out in
another post, if the difference is only one stop (which is what

your saying) If the difference is more than one stop, your doing > something wrong
Well, I hate to tell you, but the difference between 2.8 vs the f/8 shots you are taking on the DSLR is "MORE" than 1 stop. But you are saying this means you are doing something wrong. Interesting that you admit that. :)
cant envision a situation where it would be necessary to stop down
much to get good focus on a group
"Much" is relative and a matter of opinion. The point is, do you ever stop down at least 2 stops from the max aperture to take a picture with a DSLR for additional depth of field? Come on, you know you do. :) See, that's why I never posted pictures to show this - everyone is already taking shots regularly at f.5.6 and even smaller apertures without having to look at mine.
One example, I can take a shot of 2 people in low light using f2.8,
and one will be out of focus just slightly behind the other. So
you stop down and increase ISO on the DSLR. Same shot works at 2.8
on point and shoot. This isn't an opinion, it's an experience that
can be easily reproduced. Just be clear, are you stating that you
are using f2.8 or larger aperture on all of your DSLR shots?
Again, that would be ridiculous, of course I dont always shoot at
f/2.8,
Thank you. Getting that out of you was like pulling teeth. :)
what I am saying is a still do not see an advantage to using
a P&S in this situation
Hey, reread my previous 10 posts. How many times have I said that I did NOT say the P&S was an advantage in this situation because I hadn't specifically tested back to back? I bet I've said it at least 10 times. And here we go again. I simply said it narrows the gap (for certain.) And with one of these fine Fuji's, I will have to do a test to verify. But unless I specificaly say the Fuji is better in those situations, it would be nice if you didnt make false statements that I said such a thing, because someone else in this thread has already done that several times about the same exact detail.
It's not meant to be an argument, just pointing out a situation
where the DSLR doesn't have as much of an advantage in low light. I
never made any global claims that DSLRs are worse in this area in
spit of what others might have claimed. Read my earlier posts if
you have any doubts, they are still there.
So to be accurate, what you are saying is that the DSLR HAS an
advantage over the P&S, just not as much of an advantage
At least it hasn't been proven one way or another yet regarding this particular shooting situation (low light with greater DOF requirement.) Stay tuned for news. :)
but you
opt "often" for the P&S regardless of the fact that its
disadvantaged.
Disadvantaged in "some" ways at "some" times, yet compared to my DSLR (and various other models,) the point and shoot does have some big advantages, such as easily being able to take a shot with "open eyes" and being able to see 100% view rather than 95% or less. I'm sure I listed several reasons why I often prefer a DSLR, it's not just because of the DOF issue narrowing the gap (or possibly closing the gap & bettering it as remained to be seen in the test results.)
Thats odd but I can agree with it.
Not sure what's odd about it. It's nice to have eyes open without having to use workarounds and take multiple shots. It's nice to see 100% of what will show in the picture with no estimating/compensating or needing to crop. I think a true photographer would like his camera to take exactly what he frames to be taken.
In fact, its
exactly what I have been saying, the DSLR is a better tool for
this
Better tool for what? It's better in some ways, not all.
The odd part is that you "often" prefer the wrong tool for the job.
Just the opposite. I use the right tool for the job. And if there are several big issues that cause problems with DSLRs, then you have an additive effect, which gives more situations where someone would use a point and shoot to avoid those pitfalls of the DSLRs (although noted that some DSLRs do not have a preflash delay issue, but I was talking about MY DSLR model KM 5D, not about DSLRs in general when I said that. Go back and reread if you have any doubt.)
I bet you pound nails with a crescent wrench at times, turn nuts
Funny you mention it, I have a pretty good tool collection that is well organized, so I usually can find the right tool when I need it. And I know exactly where my DSLR and point and shoots are as needed.
 
" I'm sure I listed several reasons why I often prefer a DSLR"

Correction: " I'm sure I listed several reasons why I often prefer a point and shoot."
 
Yes, I'm sure you did, but you seem to be either intentionally misunderstanding my point, trying to be funny, or simply obtuse. You have stated why you prefer one over the other, it basically revolves around the two subjects we have been discussing, DOF or preflash delay. I have stated that I dont see an advantage in using a P&S for DOF over a DSLR, you do, fine. I understand the differences chip size makes to DOF, I just haven't yet run into a situation where I had to increase ISO more than 1 stop to get sufficient DOF. In fact, as I have said 4 times already, I am usually at or near the hyperfocal distance in most group shots that DOF isnt even an issue. I dont doubt its been an issue for you, just we have different needs so I havent run into this limitation. Also as I have said 5 times, I have usually been left wanting LESS DOF rarely more. We will have to agree to disagree.

As for the preflash issue, if you feel that the extremely weak flash on a point and shoot is sufficient than fine, but to stick to your logic adding a non TTL flash is no solution as that is simply a workaround, right?

I think were done here. For what its worth in Mexico last week I got to use my friends KM5D, I will agree with you on that viewfinder, thats a load of rubbish, it seemed bright enough but very small. Dont judge all DSLR viewfinders by that thing, try a D80 or D200 and you will see what I mean. Personally I would prefer a 95% coverage OVF to a 100% coverage EVF any day, optimumly a 100% OVF would be ideal.
Take care, Ted
" I'm sure I listed several reasons why I often prefer a DSLR"

Correction: " I'm sure I listed several reasons why I often prefer
a point and shoot."
--
http://photobucket.com/albums/y260/tdkd13/
 
I think were done here. For what its worth in Mexico last week I
got to use my friends KM5D, I will agree with you on that
viewfinder, thats a load of rubbish, it seemed bright enough but
very small. Dont judge all DSLR viewfinders by that thing, try a
D80 or D200 and you will see what I mean. Personally I would prefer
a 95% coverage OVF to a 100% coverage EVF any day, optimumly a 100%
OVF would be ideal.
Take care, Ted
" I'm sure I listed several reasons why I often prefer a DSLR"

Correction: " I'm sure I listed several reasons why I often prefer
a point and shoot."
--
http://photobucket.com/albums/y260/tdkd13/
 
Yes, I'm sure you did, but you seem to be either intentionally
misunderstanding my point, trying to be funny, or simply obtuse.
Very funny, how ironic. I was thinking the same thing about you and someone else in this thread. heeh :)
You have stated why you prefer one over the other
Did I say "always prefer" or "often prefer?" Believe me, I know the advantages of a good DSLR with fast preflash & reliable focus.
it basically
revolves around the two subjects we have been discussing, DOF or
preflash delay.
No, that's only 2 of several, and I dont think I even mentioned some of the things I dont like about the DSLR.
I have stated that I dont see an advantage in using
a P&S for DOF over a DSLR, you do, fine.
Err.. just to be clear, I said the P&S takes away the advantage (or at least some a significant part of it) from the DSLR in that particular shooting situation, not that I had tested that a P&S did a better job. Until I test back to back, I will not jump to conclusions as 99% of the people do... that usually dont know what they are talking about but are merely parrotting what they have read from others. But for the simple fact the P&S can be used at a lower ISO than a DSLR to shoot for greater depth of field in low light is pretty clear. A back to back test would show the degree of variation that a simple "equalizing ISO" test doesn't give you.
I understand the
differences chip size makes to DOF, I just haven't yet run into a
situation where I had to increase ISO more than 1 stop to get
sufficient DOF.
Well, you already stated you sometimes stop down to f/8, so that would be more than 1 stop. Therefore in some low light situations when you are already pushing the low shutter speed, everything else being equal, you will have to increase iso multiple stops to make up for the small aperture you are using, ending up with visible noise in your shot. But you will still be able to use f2.8 on your point and shoot at ISO100 for a clean shot.
In fact, as I have said 4 times already, I am
usually at or near the hyperfocal distance in most group shots that
DOF isnt even an issue.
Never said you couldn't get DOF field with a DSLR. I said that you have to use a smaller aperture on the DSLR vs the P&S for the same DOF. It appears you do believe this as a fact now, but continue to argue against it at the same time. This means less light for the DSLR, so increase your ISO to make up for it when in low light. This isn't my opinion, it's just a fact. Not trying to argue with you about opinions or shooting styles, only specify the facts. If I stated anything that was false, I would like to know what it is.
Also as I have said 5 times, I have usually been left wanting LESS
DOF rarely more. We will have to agree to disagree.
You can say this 5 more times, but I have never disputed the advantage of a DSLR in isolating the subject with a narrow depth of field. I believe that in fact, I have stated this as an advantage of DSLR's in multiple posts in various threads. So you are essentially trying to argue a fact with that statement that I never disputed in the first place and completely agree with you on.
As for the preflash issue, if you feel that the extremely weak
flash on a point and shoot is sufficient than fine
I have tested the flash on my new s6000fd. I can take shots at low ISO of someone on the other side of the room, and it does the job with good exposure, even with little ambient light to assist, and what's really nice, is the subject's eyes are completely open without even a hint of lazy eye! :) Now, across an auditorium is a different story, but I have cameras with external flashes for those few instances I need to do that.
but to stick to
your logic adding a non TTL flash is no solution as that is simply
a workaround, right?
Yes, that's why I keep saying - a fast preflash delay is the "true" solution, and that's what the s6000fd gives us @98ms, and so does the D200 DSLR.
You would think, but this has got to be the most difficult time I've had explaining the same basic thing to 2 different people at the same time. If this was a conversation I was having face to face with someone and had to camera in hand also, and maybe some illustrations, I dont think they would give me any argument. But it surprises me to get this kind of response from people that have experience with both types of cameras, as I do. Sometimes I think people on here debate just to debate without even trying to understand what's being said by the other party.

For what its worth in Mexico last week I
got to use my friends KM5D, I will agree with you on that
viewfinder, thats a load of rubbish, it seemed bright enough but
very small.
I dont really have a "big" complaint about the size because I compared it to the D50 when I bought it, and it was much bigger than the Nikon's. It certainly wasn't any worse than the 350D from what I recall. But the 7D was bigger and better, and so was the Pentax DS.
Dont judge all DSLR viewfinders by that thing, try a
D80 or D200 and you will see what I mean.
Hey, haven't I already commented on those several times in this thread. I am not judging all DSLRs the same. If I get another one, I think I mentioned this earlier, I know what to look for next time. There's a chance Sony will deliver, but I'm not too optimistic after the A100.
Personally I would prefer
a 95% coverage OVF to a 100% coverage EVF any day, optimumly a 100%
I prefer 100% coverage period. Optimally, I would prefer both optical and LCD "flip & twist" live views at 100%.
 
Yes, I'm sure you did, but you seem to be either intentionally
misunderstanding my point, trying to be funny, or simply obtuse.
Very funny, how ironic. I was thinking the same thing about you
and someone else in this thread. heeh :)
Good lord ... do you attend middle school or something?
Nice come-back. Oh well... when you can't understand the technical content, throw out some criticisms huh? :D
 
Since I am perfectly satisfied that I accurately reported all of the relevant research that is available through Google, I now hand the axe back to you ...

Grind away ...

--
http://letkeman.net/Photos
 
Thank you. I already responded to your misleading comments about your research which should clear up any confusion anyone might have had. It's always nice to be able to link to posts by experts in the field that have confirmed my findings. Let me know if I have stated anything which is technically inaccurate, as I pride myself in attention to detail.

Have a nice day.
Since I am perfectly satisfied that I accurately reported all of
the relevant research that is available through Google, I now hand
the axe back to you ...
 
I really think your DOF argument is a non issue, at least for most
people it obviously is, no one can say whats an issue to you so if
you feel its a "real" drawback thats fine, but most people are not
having that problem at all.
Take care, Ted
You really shouldn't speek for other people. It may be a non issue because most people don't think about it one way or another. I never realized how useful deep DOF could be until I bought a small sensor digital. I noticed how deep the DOF was and began to think "what can I do with this?". I then began to think of ways to take advantage of this new "tool". It opened up another world of creativity while unfortunately, closing another. I do want to buy a DSLR as I think that combined with the 9000 it covers a lot of bases.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
 
After you have owned your future DSLR for a year, let me know how often your S9000 gets used. I too thought I would continue to use my Fuji after I bought the D70, never happenned. I'm still waiting for a situation to occur where I felt I could yield better pics with the Fuji than with the D70. In every situation that I wished I had a small sensor camera, its been a situation where the size and weight of the DSLR was bothersome to carry. I am hoping to get a small cam like an F30 to use when size is an issue. I have yet to find a situation where I felt I could get a better pic with my Fuji than with my D70.

So again, I say, after you have had a DSLR for a year, lets see how much use the Fuji is getting. My guess is you will do as I did, sell it and buy a lens for the new camera.
Take care, Ted

--
http://photobucket.com/albums/y260/tdkd13/
 
had a small sensor camera, its been a situation where the size and
weight of the DSLR was bothersome to carry.
This happens to be one of those "reasons" I have which I told you earlier that I didnt even list in my original post about why I often prefer the P&S camera.
I am hoping to get a
small cam like an F30 to use when size is an issue. I have yet to
find a situation where I felt I could get a better pic with my Fuji
than with my D70.
Not to mention more depth of field without stopping down, and if the preflash is faster than the D70 as my s6000fd is, then it should cut down on the lazy eyes that the D70 is notorious for (see Nikon forum for details and evidence.)
So again, I say, after you have had a DSLR for a year, lets see how
much use the Fuji is getting. My guess is you will do as I did,
sell it and buy a lens for the new camera.
I'm not so sure D70 users are selling their P&S. My friend has a D70, complains about lazy eyes, but he also has a Canon P&S which he uses frequently, and apparently doesn't give him the same problem and allows him to get nice depth of field in low light.
 
Videoguy: I wouldn't bother trying to educate this individual, he/she gets their jollies from arguing online and talking about horrible "ad hominem" attacks someone else has commited against them. How ironic is that, given their latest comments? Better to ignore the uneducatable then to waste your time.
Yes, I'm sure you did, but you seem to be either intentionally
misunderstanding my point, trying to be funny, or simply obtuse.
Very funny, how ironic. I was thinking the same thing about you
and someone else in this thread. heeh :)
Good lord ... do you attend middle school or something?
Nice come-back. Oh well... when you can't understand the technical
content, throw out some criticisms huh? :D
--
Fuji A310, F10, & F30
 
So again, I say, after you have had a DSLR for a year, lets see how
much use the Fuji is getting. My guess is you will do as I did,
sell it and buy a lens for the new camera.
I'll never sell it. Used cameras always make a good back up. You can't get enough money for them to make selling them worthwhile. I have a 4 year old OLY C4000 I still use once in a while when I want a smaller camera to carry around.
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
 
As I already stated a number of times, the desire for more DOF and
"lazyeye" have not been issues for me, so the P&S would be useless
for those non-issues.
I do own two other Fuji cams, neither ever gets used any longer by
me, the wife uses one of them on rare occasions.
The problem is your assuming that because you do something a certain way other people will do the same. It doesn't work that way. "Different strokes for different folks" (Sly and the Family Stone).
--
Tom

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
 

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