JPEG Quality: 8, 10 or 12?

JohnnyBlood · Oct 17, 2006

I read in 'Popular Photography' magazine a month or two ago to save all JPEG images under Image Options with a Quality of 8, because anything over 8 will compress the pixels and/or image and thus damage the photograph in some way. Then I get a copy of 'Photoshop User' magazine this month and it recommends saving them with a quality of 12. Which is it? Is there a definitive source online that explains the differnce between the quality levels? Am I splitting hairs?

Johnny

http://www.flickr.com/photos/latitudes/

kipknee · Oct 17, 2006

You'll probably get lots of opinions on this. I typically create and modify everything as a TIFF and then convert to JPEG when I'm ready to send off to the printer. White House CC recommends/prefers that JPEGs be saved as 10.

simonkit · Oct 17, 2006

Oh no - not something else to confuse us all. I always thought that saving at 12 was supposed to imply "minimum" compression/maximum quality ??

simon

--

Feel free to view my website, it's a collection of mountains/lakes & seascapes taken during the pursuit of my other main interest - hiking

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***************************************

tuthdoc99 · Oct 17, 2006

I thought the same, least compression at 12. I also always do my edits in TIF and PSD and not save to JPG till finished.
--
I wish these trees weren't here, I want to see the forest!

kipknee · Oct 17, 2006

Here's an excerpt from the WHCC website...

Q. Why a level 10 JPEG, don’t you lose quality in the large prints?

A. JPEG compression is a very efficient, lossy image compression algorithm designed specifically for saving photographic images. It takes advantage of how we see color versus brightness to only save information needed to reproduce the image for people to view. Image data is lost during compression, but at high levels of quality you will not see a difference between a Level 10 JPEG and a TIFF printed to photographic paper. JPEG compression is perfect for transient files for sending to the lab for printing, but avoid using the compression as a working file type. Also avoid opening a JPEG, making changes, and resaving it again as a JPEG repeatedly. If your workflow calls for this to happen, save your files as TIFF or PSD files until they are complete and ready for output, at which time you should save them as a level 10 JPEG...

jfriend00 · Oct 17, 2006

simonkit said:
Oh no - not something else to confuse us all. I always thought that
saving at 12 was supposed to imply "minimum" compression/maximum
quality ??

The WHCC reference elsewhere in this thread is a great explanation. If you are saving for some output device (screen or printer), then you will not see any print difference between level 10 and level 12 and the level 12 will be as much as 3-4 times larger, bigger to store, transmit and work on.

If you are saving for future work on the image, then don't use JPEG at all. use a non-lossy format like PSD or TIFF. FYI, small edits on a level 10 JPEG file generally work fine too.

While this isn't my normal workflow, if I generate a bunch of level 10 JPEGs and then decide a few of them need some small hand tweaking (e.g. clone out a dust spot or a slight color adjustment), it doesn't pain me at all to do small tweaks to them and then save them. What can start to degrade is large scale edits or repeated edits.

Here's what Smugmug has to say about JPEG quality level: http://www.smugmug.com/help/compression . Keep in mind they have a satisfaction guarantee on prints (they will reprint anything for free that you aren't 100% satisfied with), so they want the best results.

Here's what their web-site says:

"No one has been able to tell the difference between images stored at Photoshop JPEG 12 and JPEG 10 settings, but JPEG 10 images are less than a third the size.

We tell our customers to save at JPEG 10 for psychological comfort, but for our own photographs, critical prints of million-dollar cars shot at Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance that hang in expensive mansions, we're perfectly comfortable with JPEG 8."

--
John
Gallery: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/portfolio

Kent C · Oct 17, 2006

JohnnyBlood said:
I read in 'Popular Photography' magazine a month or two ago to save
all JPEG images under Image Options with a Quality of 8, because
anything over 8 will compress the pixels and/or image and thus
damage the photograph in some way. Then I get a copy of 'Photoshop
User' magazine this month and it recommends saving them with a
quality of 12. Which is it? Is there a definitive source online
that explains the differnce between the quality levels? Am I
splitting hairs?

No. You'r misreading

You mentioned the PopPhotgraphy article in an earlier thread and without out the actual quote it's hard to comment on other than it makes no sense, as a replier in your last post pointed out. There is less compression at levels above 8, so the quality will be better, not 'damaged'. Either you misread the article or whoever wrote it got it wrong.

--
Kent

http://www.pbase.com/kentc
For prior discussions on most questions:
http://porg.4t.com/KentC.html
or d/l 'archives' at:
http://www.atncentral.com

Bandnuts · Oct 17, 2006

John, thanks for this explanation and for setting my mind at ease a bit. I've never been able to tell the difference between 10 and 12, but still saved images a 12 and suffered with longer uploads and less ability to store. Since reading this, I've script processed about 600 of my day to day photos and without a doubt there is a HUGE difference in file size. My files are droping to about 1/2 to 1/3rd previous. I'll pull out my external drive this weekend and open up some playing room on that one as well.

Thanks again,

Kap

jfriend00 said:
simonkit said:

Oh no - not something else to confuse us all. I always thought that
saving at 12 was supposed to imply "minimum" compression/maximum
quality ??

Click to expand...

The WHCC reference elsewhere in this thread is a great explanation.
If you are saving for some output device (screen or printer), then
you will not see any print difference between level 10 and level 12
and the level 12 will be as much as 3-4 times larger, bigger to
store, transmit and work on.

If you are saving for future work on the image, then don't use JPEG
at all. use a non-lossy format like PSD or TIFF. FYI, small edits
on a level 10 JPEG file generally work fine too.

While this isn't my normal workflow, if I generate a bunch of level
10 JPEGs and then decide a few of them need some small hand
tweaking (e.g. clone out a dust spot or a slight color adjustment),
it doesn't pain me at all to do small tweaks to them and then save
them. What can start to degrade is large scale edits or repeated
edits.

Here's what Smugmug has to say about JPEG quality level:
http://www.smugmug.com/help/compression . Keep in mind they have a
satisfaction guarantee on prints (they will reprint anything for
free that you aren't 100% satisfied with), so they want the best
results.

Here's what their web-site says:

"No one has been able to tell the difference between images stored
at Photoshop JPEG 12 and JPEG 10 settings, but JPEG 10 images are
less than a third the size.

We tell our customers to save at JPEG 10 for psychological comfort,
but for our own photographs, critical prints of million-dollar cars
shot at Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance that hang in expensive
mansions, we're perfectly comfortable with JPEG 8."

--
John
Gallery: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/portfolio

Pesto126 · Oct 18, 2006

Ok.. that makes for sense for the Save As option where it presents you with the 1-12 slider.. but what about the Save for Web option where you cannot choose this value but only things Very High and Maximum... and then there is the Optimize slider and checkbox.. How do I get the same level 10 jpg using the Save for Web option.? Thx!

jfriend00 · Oct 18, 2006

Pesto126 said:
Ok.. that makes for sense for the Save As option where it presents
you with the 1-12 slider.. but what about the Save for Web option
where you cannot choose this value but only things Very High and
Maximum... and then there is the Optimize slider and checkbox..
How do I get the same level 10 jpg using the Save for Web option.?
Thx!

The only time I use Save for Web is when I'm creating an image that I want as small as possible that still looks good on screen. I never use it for an image that will be printed. In this case, I just go by how it looks on screen since that's all I'm going to use it for and Save for Web has the preview option. I use this feature very rarely. So ... short answer, I don't need to create a level 10 quality image in the few cases I use Save for Web. I only use that feature for web or email viewing of small images.
--
John
Gallery: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/portfolio

pbarclay · Oct 18, 2006

saving at 12 just a total waste?-paulb

Kent C · Oct 18, 2006

if you want to get technical:

http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/jpeg-quality.html?src1=19&src2=21

... but I didn't read enough about it to fully grasp

Best bet is to save out one of each then put them in the same image as layers and set to 'difference'.
--
Kent

http://www.pbase.com/kentc
For prior discussions on most questions:
http://porg.4t.com/KentC.html
or d/l 'archives' at:
http://www.atncentral.com

Pesto126 · Oct 18, 2006

Well.. the reason I do it is that it automatically flattens all layers before saving without doing it on the original image.. Since you can choose the level of quality.. I assumed it woudl provide the same JPEG quality.. is this not true? I would still love to know which settings to use for quality 10 if indeed it is just an easier way to save as JPEG..

chojan · Oct 18, 2006

Pesto126 said:
Ok.. that makes for sense for the Save As option where it presents
you with the 1-12 slider.. but what about the Save for Web option
where you cannot choose this value but only things Very High and
Maximum... and then there is the Optimize slider and checkbox..
How do I get the same level 10 jpg using the Save for Web option.?
Thx!

It's unfortunate that Adobe chose different sliders for each of the two save mechanisms. I am in the midst of writing an article comparing the two.

But to answer your question, a Save for Web of 80 will be fairly similar in compression quality as Save As Quality level 10, with the Save for Web being slightly better at preserving detail.

--
Cal.
http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/ - Digital Photography Articles

chojan · Oct 18, 2006

jfriend00 said:
Here's what Smugmug has to say about JPEG quality level:
http://www.smugmug.com/help/compression . Keep in mind they have a
satisfaction guarantee on prints (they will reprint anything for
free that you aren't 100% satisfied with), so they want the best
results.

Here's what their web-site says:

"No one has been able to tell the difference between images stored
at Photoshop JPEG 12 and JPEG 10 settings, but JPEG 10 images are
less than a third the size.

We tell our customers to save at JPEG 10 for psychological comfort,
but for our own photographs, critical prints of million-dollar cars
shot at Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance that hang in expensive
mansions, we're perfectly comfortable with JPEG 8."

I really have a hard time agreeing with smugmug's comment here regarding level 8. It has far more JPEG compression "loss" than you'll get from the original JPEG files direct from your dSLR. Enough that you can observe a reasonable delta in a "difference" mode comparison between the before & after.

It really depends on what your destination of the JPEGs will be. If only small-moderate sized prints, then it may not matter. But 100% crops visible on your display may be another story.

I just ran a comparison and see that some areas of the image differ by as much as 28/255 (for RGB values), which is an "error" of over 10%. This implies either loss of fine detail or color shifts, etc.

While you would have a hard time seeing this difference in a side-by-side comparison of natural/organic images, some people may have difficulty accepting such differences from what was originally shot.

--
Cal.
http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/ - Digital Photography Articles

spider227489 · Oct 18, 2006

Excellent site Kent. Thanks

Kent C said:
if you want to get technical:

http://www.impulseadventure.com/photo/jpeg-quality.html?src1=19&src2=21

... but I didn't read enough about it to fully grasp

Best bet is to save out one of each then put them in the same image
as layers and set to 'difference'.
--
Kent

http://www.pbase.com/kentc
For prior discussions on most questions:
http://porg.4t.com/KentC.html
or d/l 'archives' at:
http://www.atncentral.com

--
Ron in Vernon, B.C.
Canon 30D
Panasonic FZ50
Panasonic FZ30
Canon 10D
Argus C3
Kodak Brownie Hawkeye

jfriend00 · Oct 18, 2006

Pesto126 said:
Well.. the reason I do it is that it automatically flattens all
layers before saving without doing it on the original image.. Since
you can choose the level of quality.. I assumed it woudl provide
the same JPEG quality.. is this not true? I would still love to
know which settings to use for quality 10 if indeed it is just an
easier way to save as JPEG..

Save As JPEG will also automatically flatten layers just temporarily for the save without affecting your image loaded into PS. It will not be available if your image is 16-bit (a feature goof by Adobe, IMO), but you can convert to 8-bit, save as jpeg, then undo one step to restore 16-bit. I do that frequently. I generally want to preserve EXIF so that's why I rarely use save for web.

It sounds like elsewhere in this thread, it's been said that level 80 in Save for Web is comparable to level 10. I have no idea why Adobe has multiple scales for the same thing.

--
John
Gallery: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/portfolio

Mikael Ostensson · Oct 19, 2006

Back a few years ago, I was working for a image/photo stock agency when the cost of maintaing a large stock library flipped in advantage to digital.

As part of the evaluation of going digital we evaluated storage formats and when compared a tiff to a jpg (Ps level 11 jpeg) on screen, nobody could tell the different, but once printed and viewed side by side the jpg image looked noticable flatter. We took the path of LZW compressed tiff files while storage cost of the time made many other stock aganecies go jpeg. We got many comments after the choice that our digitalized images was higher in quality and more "alive" than competing stock houses. Some of this i'm sure was due to subtle losses in jpg vs tiff. Other factors also include that fact that we did all duping to 4x5 while most other agencies went 70mm and when digitalizing, we used the original when ever possible, but drum scanning it rather than slide scanners that manny agencies used to convert many thousands of images. Of course it helped that we where not an all possible stock photo agency but rather specialized in artistic of beat type images, so we only had about 70K images to go through while many stock houses had millions.

--
Mikael Ostensson
Camera: Yes Lenses: Some

GiveMeAnthony · Jun 23, 2016

I've taken the liberty of illustrating the differences between a level 10 and a level 12 JPEG file. The PSD file which I generated contains 5 layers. The first two layers are the original level 12 and level 10 quality JPEGs as named. The next three on top show the differences between these two layers. I have a division, difference & fill, and difference & level layer. The division layer was made by using the division blend mode with level 10 on top, difference & fill was made by using the difference blend mode and filling in the darkest pixels with white using a 0 tolerance and non-contiguous tool tip, difference & level was made by using the difference blend mode and using the level adjustment to bring the colors into proper exposure. I decided to clip it so that the colors were a bit bright, but the clipping isn't by much. If you zoom in to suspect areas, sometimes you can tell the difference. It's especially the case in contrasting areas or dark textured areas. The level 10 JPEG is definitely softer in certain areas and other areas have artifacts, while the level 12 version is tack sharp and without artifacts. However, these differences are quite small perceptually and I'm not certain it would always make a difference given that printers use dots rather than pixels.

JPEG Differences (362.8 MB PSD file)

The original JPEGs were made in Lightroom from a RAW sample file I downloaded online.

JPEG Quality: 8, 10 or 12?

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