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K10 / XTi: All things being equal...

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DougJGreen said:
There is not ONE camera that is inherently better than the others,
for all users purposes. I never said that they were.
Click to expand...
Did you say this?
'Absurd to put the Canon 20D ahead of D80: It's a lesser, older camera, period.'

And then when people pointed out to you that the 20D has a metal body and shoots 5fps, you ignored them and went on about how you will never buy a camera without spot metering, and how 1s' worth of RAW burst is useless?

Does everybody need to burst in RAW instead of jpeg?
Does everybody need spot metering?

Don't say you didn't say so, because this was what you implied by starting with that statement and following on with those one-sided arguments.

And I have never owned a single Canon camera, SLR or otherwise.
 
And it's not worth what a Nikon D80 is, at this moment in time. No other reason. Canon themselves addressed several shortcomings in the camera, and improved it in the follow-on product.

Just as I would not have put the Nikon D70s on the list. Because it has been superceded by something better. And I would not have put the Olympus E-1 on the list EITHER, as a $1000 camera, and I own one and happen to really like it. On the other hand, If someone were asking about the best $500 camera, I WOULD put the Olympus E-1 on the list - Because the marketplace has caused it's price to adjust to it's current fair value (and even beyond, IMHO). In my opinion, if the Canon 20D was down to $700 or so, now you'd be talking fair value. But not at $1000.
 
A year ago, the Canon 20D was a competitive $1000 camera. Today, it's not.

I am very willing to bet that more Nikon D80s sell than Canon 20Ds from September '06 out. The Canon 20D is, at best, Canon's 4th best DSLR seller right now, behind the Rebel XTi/400, Rebel XT/350, and 30D. It might even be behind the Canon 5D.

Meanwhile, right now, the Nikon D80 is their top runner - and probably the #2 seller overall in Oct. '06, behind just the Canon.

Of course, none of that matters to me, for my own needs - why YOU seem to care is beyond me.
 
Why is that unfair...

The retail price of both cameras (in Australia at least) will be the same.. You can't compare the 400d (AUD$1499) to the Pentax K100d (AUD$880) as they are in different price ranges.. Considering the K10d will also be AUD$1499, it seems like a fair comparison..
645D said:
The XTi is the entry level camera in Canon's line-up. The K10D is
the Advanced/Semi-Pro body, just one level below the 1D series,
almost equal to Nikon D200 class (or between D200 and D80). This
translates it between the 30D/5D.
In this sense, the K10D is hugely underpriced. It could be priced
at D200 level and still sales well.

--
Muzi
Click to expand...
--
------------
Joel - K100D/DS/SFX
http://www.pbase.com/joele
 
John Camp said:
You can argue endlessly about image quality, but the truth of the
matter is that most cameras with 10mp+ are about equal, with
different strengths. But if this is your first DSLR and you have no
glass commitment, then you should think 1) This will not be your
last DSLR, and probably not even your last system -- you will
change in the future. 2) The Pentax has an ocean of cheap and
really good used glass behind it. As rumors about this camera
start to get around, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the cost
of the used glass starts to go up. But right now, you could get a
heck of a system for under $2000. That's less than the cost of a 5D
body alone; and as far as I know, the Pentax is, by far, the
cheapest of the environmentally sealed bodies.
Click to expand...
True, the Pentax K10D is really value for money. Fantastic specs at an amazingly low price, all things considered.
LamyTracks said:
If money is not an issue, and I was really serious about pro
photography, I'd probably go with either a Nikon or Canon system,
because repairs and parts are available almost anywhere in the
world. On the other hand, come to think of it, since you can buy
two Pentaxes for less than the cost of one pro/semipro Canon, maybe
instead of thinking repairs and spare parts, you could just get
two. 8-)
JC
Click to expand...
Yes - if you are willing to disregard the "pro image" that Canikon can lend the owner, the Pentax K10D has so much to offer. And Pentax glass is great - although the current line-up is a bit lacking in the long end - but Pentax is aware of that, and new glass is in the pipeline.

It amazes me that so many that are not pros, are willing to pay so much to get Canon/Nikon gear, when equipment from a lesser known and less expensive brand would do equally well.

But what do I know - I drive a Skoda...

LH
 
DougJGreen said:
Anyone at all who does professional sports work will need at least
5 FPS and long fast lenses.
Click to expand...
Most pros aren't sports photographers....
DougJGreen said:
Many pros might sometimes need to fire a camera remotely.
Click to expand...
Thats different from most pros as you claimed in the previous post. Some might need it...
DougJGreen said:
Many pros might need weather-resistant cameras AND LENSES.
Click to expand...
No they don't. They may want it. I'm old enough to remember when 90% of all pros used the non-weather sealed Nikon F3. They managed quite well....
DougJGreen said:
Those were just some examples of the types of professional systems
support that Canon and Nikon routinely offer, and which other
brands do not.
Click to expand...
Pentax do offer weather sealed bodies and are about to release weather sealed lenses. I fact they marketed the worlds first weather sealed body when Nikon and Canon didn't. It also shot at 5fps. It didn't make much of a difference though.
Pentax will release a camera above the K10D next year.
DougJGreen said:
And BTW, all of our self-proclaimed experts on the superiority of
the Pentax K10D are making this pronouncement purely on the basis
of a spec sheet. The camera does not yet exist with production
software, so it's real world performance is still unknown.
Click to expand...
As it uses the same sensor as the Nikon D80 we can make some some fairly certain assumptions...
 
rgmoore said:
That's very different from the bodies in cameras like the 30D and
D200, which are solid metal with a rubberized surface for grip.
The K10D preview even comments "the K10D appears to be lacking is a
magnesium body (compared to the Canon EOS 30D and Nikon D200)".
Click to expand...
The Canon D30 doesn't have a magnesium body. It is a plastic body with magnesium skin. It is no more a metal body than the Canon AE-1. The Nikon D200 is something totally different.
rgmoore said:
rgmoore said:
the K10d is a dustproof/ water resistant body.
Click to expand...
Another feature that looks more impressive than it is. Unless your
lens has a corresponding weather seal- which few lenses from any
brand do- then the single largest opening into your camera lacks a
seal.
Click to expand...
Water seeping through the lens mount never happens if you ask camera repair people. Besides, Pentax weather sealed lenses are scheduler for release next year. Also, Canon (and Pentax) have had weather sealed bodies for years without weather sealed lenses. Nobody has complained....
 
Remember the K10D is not competing with the Canon XTi. It is competing with the Nikon D80, Canon 30D class of cameras at a lower price point and a more enhanced feature set. It is the K100D that is Canons XTi, Nikon D50's and Sony's A100 competitor.

The K10D is a simi pro camera, and has many high quality features. Also remember that Pentax has a lot riding on the line with the introduction of this camera so they are going to make the K10D "the best it can be". They are doing there best to keep any photos from the early beta from getting out, (although I saw some on this forum and I'm sure Pentax is not happy about that) and when ready I bet it will be a very fine performer.

Like the many here I too am waiting for the test and the user reviews, and if it's what I think it will be, the K10D will be in my camera bag early next year.

wll
 
DougJGreen said:
And that way, you don't have to worry about different sensor sizes.

That being said, It's perfectly reasonable to use a Canon 30D or a
Nikon D200 for pro work. Plenty of pros do. And then, I'd say you
keep all of your other gear.

However, you are right about the discontinuity of sensor size in
the Canon family. Which, to me, is one of the main reason that I'd
buy Nikons instead. And THAT was my point.
Click to expand...
The comparison is XTi / K10

Any case 30D and D200 are not Pro bodies and don't have in body IS.
I don't think 30D and D200 can be so much better than K10 until A4 A3 format.

And, if you want something of better than K10 plus Sigma EX, you need Canon L IS series: twice the price.

If someone can spend for a L IS system, it's better to think about EOS 5D.

But this is a completely different range. We are speaking about XTi / K10 budget level.

I feel that for a professional that have to stay in the budget is better K10.
For a prosumer is matter of feeling.

--
GiorgioPM
 
As others said please note that you're buying into the lens/accessory system and not so much into particular body. In depth and breadth of lens system and availability of modern USM AF Canon runs rounds over Pentax. As opposed to Pentax Canon also offers a clear upgrade path, doesn't depend upon Sony and sensor handouts and simply is in a much better shape finanacially.

But putting those important considerations aside K10D as a camera body is just in a totally different and higher class than XTi. I'm a Canon shooter but the only major advantages of XTi I can find are smaller size which can be important for some (not me) and some $100 cheaper. Some newbies may lament lack of Scene modes on K10D. High ISO perofrmance is an unknown yet for K10D but if they manage the D80 level performance I'll call it par with XTi.

Otherwise, IMO, it's no contest. Here's what you get with K10D vs XTi (in the order of the things important to me):
  • In-body image stabilization (SR) - I can't afford L IS lens both in price and weight. Below $1K Canon has only 3 zooms two of which (28-135 and 17-85) aren't really good and are overpriced for what they are. 70-330 IS is a good lens.
  • Brighter and bigger glass pentaprism VF
  • 11 point AF with 9 cross sensors (should be seen how it really works)
  • Probably better build sealed body with better hand grip than XTi.
  • Easy acccessible user settings bank
  • Choice of DNG as a RAW format (though looks like not compressed as opposed to proprietary PEF)
  • Top mono status LCD
--
http://www.pbase.com/klopus
 
John Camp said:
You can argue endlessly about image quality, but the truth of the
matter is that most cameras with 10mp+ are about equal, with
different strengths. But if this is your first DSLR and you have no
glass commitment, then you should think 1) This will not be your
last DSLR, and probably not even your last system -- you will
change in the future. 2) The Pentax has an ocean of cheap and
really good used glass behind it. As rumors about this camera
start to get around, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the cost
of the used glass starts to go up. But right now, you could get a
heck of a system for under $2000. That's less than the cost of a 5D
body alone; and as far as I know, the Pentax is, by far, the
cheapest of the environmentally sealed bodies.

If money is not an issue, and I was really serious about pro
photography, I'd probably go with either a Nikon or Canon system,
because repairs and parts are available almost anywhere in the
world. On the other hand, come to think of it, since you can buy
two Pentaxes for less than the cost of one pro/semipro Canon, maybe
instead of thinking repairs and spare parts, you could just get
two. 8-)
Click to expand...
Then fit a Sigma Ex 18-50 f/2.8 on the first, a 50-150 f/2.8 on the second and forget dust problems.
LamyTracks said:
JC
Click to expand...
--
GiorgioPM
 
SelrahCharleS said:
GiorgioPM said:
DougJGreen said:
GiorgioPM said:
If You are discussing about $1000 cameras, it means you are not a
professional.
Do you really need all those Nikon or Canon Systems or Pentax plus
3rd party are more than enough? (remember that in body IS makes
attractive good 3rd party lenses).
Think about what you really need. And, if one day you'll become a
professional you'll have the budget to trash all and buy pro.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
And what do you save of your entry level Canon system if you go PRO?
And don't tell me you can sell all, because you can do the same
with Pentax, but you can start with a pro body and the in body IS
can allow you to buy Sigma EX half the price (or less) than Canon L
IS.
Click to expand...
That is a good point... if you start off with either camera and a
couple of the consumer or midrange zooms, you may upgrade the
lenses as well as the body when you do upgrade, so switching
systems would not be all that different from upgrading within the
system. Although I think a lot of people will be upgrading one lens
at a time and slowly build up a collection of better and better
stuff. Upgrading to a 1 series and a couple of L lenses would be
just easy from a midrange Canon body and lenses as it would from
Pentax and a couple of midrange lenses if you did it all at once.
Somewhat different story if you had accumulated a few L lenses over
the course of time though.
Click to expand...
It's what I was saying.

Or a professional has $6000 to start with a minimum 5D & L IS system or it could be better a K10 & Sigma EX system (or used Pentax lenses), considering also the K10 in body IS advantage.

Non L series Canon lenses are not as good as Sigma EX or Pentax lenses.
Moreover Pentax is delivering environmental sealed lenses.
SelrahCharleS said:
SelrahCharleS said:
SelrahCharleS said:
SelrahCharleS said:
--
GiorgioPM
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
GiorgioPM
 
tapir said:
Otherwise, IMO, it's no contest.
Click to expand...
Before saying that, we should wait for the sample pictures.
tapir said:
  • In-body image stabilization (SR) - I can't afford L IS lens both
in price and weight. Below $1K Canon has only 3 zooms two of which
(28-135 and 17-85) aren't really good and are overpriced for what
they are. 70-330 IS is a good lens.
Click to expand...
Partially agreed. I tried the Sony A100 SR vs Canon IS recently in a shoot-out recently. And I have to agree with Phil: in-lens stabilisation is definitely far more reliable.
tapir said:
  • Brighter and bigger glass pentaprism VF
Click to expand...
Agreed.
tapir said:
  • 11 point AF with 9 cross sensors (should be seen how it really
works)
Click to expand...
If you use very fast lenses f/2.8 or faster, Pentax AF accuracy is even better than a Nikon D2X + f/1.8 lens. Yes, that's how good it is.

BUT if you slap on a slow lens, you'll be very disappointed. It performs worse than the so-so 300D/350D AF.
tapir said:
  • Probably better build sealed body with better hand grip than XTi.
Click to expand...
Absolutely.
tapir said:
  • Easy acccessible user settings bank
Click to expand...
Agreed.
tapir said:
  • Choice of DNG as a RAW format (though looks like not compressed
as opposed to proprietary PEF)
Click to expand...
Will need to see... rather disappointed with the lack of compressed RAW.
tapir said:
  • Top mono status LCD
Click to expand...
This is practically useless to me since it doesn't show ISO. Had it on the DS and don't miss it when I let this go.

-------------------------------------------
See the colors of my world in:
thw.smugmug.com
 
Ken Smith said:
I did not post this to either of the Canon or Pentax forums as I
did not want to start a war.
Click to expand...
looks like a few broke out anyway.. but not in the way you expected:-)

(BTW Pentax has spot metering) I prefer centre weighted but spot metering has it's place.

anyway...

First you have to wait for the K10 to arrive, get them both (P & C) in your hands at a shop and try them out. Avoid biased salespeople they just want your money ASAP.

Presuming you have read the spec sheets you should have an idea on each cameras advantages.

Although the K10 spec sheet is impressive histroy proves there will be some point that a reviewer will get stuck into. In the list of Pro's and Con's there will always be some issue, noise, banding, focus speed, The K10 will NOT be perfect. (but I hope it is cos I want one :-))

Figure out a practical lens to start with and / or other desired lenses.

Sort out an external flash

Get a final cost.

Consider what Nikon have for the same money.

Then go buy what you like and have fun.

Best of luck I don't think you can go too wrong and I am sure you will love whatever you get, all of these DSLR's are really so good now (IMHO)

AND Remember that the biggest variable is probably.........
Ability.......(oh and Photoshop)

Ian
 
thw said:
thw said:
Otherwise, IMO, it's no contest.
Click to expand...
Before saying that, we should wait for the sample pictures.
Click to expand...
I mentioned in the original post that this all is pending real production samples and reviews. I alos maintain that Pentax needs to at least match D80 in high ISO noise/detail ratio to be considered comparable to XTi. Nikon showed that this's doable with current Sony 10MP CCD.
thw said:
thw said:
  • In-body image stabilization (SR) - I can't afford L IS lens both
in price and weight. Below $1K Canon has only 3 zooms two of which
(28-135 and 17-85) aren't really good and are overpriced for what
they are. 70-330 IS is a good lens.
Click to expand...
Partially agreed. I tried the Sony A100 SR vs Canon IS recently in
a shoot-out recently. And I have to agree with Phil: in-lens
stabilisation is definitely far more reliable.
Click to expand...
I'm afraid that blanket "Far more reliable" statement is questionable in itself. Dave Eschell's at Imaging-Resource did much more extensive work than Phil in trying to find a way to more or less relieably compare both in-lens and in-camera stabilization systems (see his KM reviews) and he's not so categorical. I would imagine that IS should be more effective (or more relieable) at long tele but all other evidence including anecdotal by other reviewers suggests that at short and mid-tele distances both systems are pretty comparable. In any case there's no denying that SR/SSS are still effective compared to not having stabilization itself. And let's not forget that with SR/SS any lens basically get stabilized while with IS/VR only some. So no mattrer how you spin it's a great feature to have.
thw said:
thw said:
  • 11 point AF with 9 cross sensors (should be seen how it really
works)
Click to expand...
If you use very fast lenses f/2.8 or faster, Pentax AF accuracy is
even better than a Nikon D2X + f/1.8 lens. Yes, that's how good it
is.

BUT if you slap on a slow lens, you'll be very disappointed. It
performs worse than the so-so 300D/350D AF.
Click to expand...
Well, we don't know how it works on K10D. In any case 9 cros sensors should really help in tracking.
thw said:
thw said:
  • Choice of DNG as a RAW format (though looks like not compressed
as opposed to proprietary PEF)
Click to expand...
Will need to see... rather disappointed with the lack of compressed
RAW.
Click to expand...
It's confirmed that PEF is at least compressed with sizes comparable to CR2.
thw said:
thw said:
  • Top mono status LCD
Click to expand...
This is practically useless to me since it doesn't show ISO. Had it
on the DS and don't miss it when I let this go.
Click to expand...
I miss the top LCD when I moved from film SLR and KM A2 to 300D and XT. It's handy to when using tripod and especially monopod to look on top then to bend to see from behind.

--
http://www.pbase.com/klopus
 
It makes no difference whether you follow the focus point or not.

And BTW, what I'm talking about is multi-spot metering - I.e. taking several spot readings, and then making an informed decision about what to shoot, and setting the exposure manually, using your brain to synthesize the results and setting the exposure on the basis of that, along with the histogram. There is no ONE point to spot and shoot when doing this. I'm not talking about just naively taking a single spot reading and shooting it.

This type of metering is NOT useless, any more than manual controls and manual focus are.
 
tapir said:
  • In-body image stabilization (SR) - I can't afford L IS lens both
in price and weight. Below $1K Canon has only 3 zooms two of which
(28-135 and 17-85) aren't really good and are overpriced for what
they are. 70-330 IS is a good lens.
  • Brighter and bigger glass pentaprism VF
  • 11 point AF with 9 cross sensors (should be seen how it really
works)
  • Probably better build sealed body with better hand grip than XTi.
  • Easy acccessible user settings bank
  • Choice of DNG as a RAW format (though looks like not compressed
as opposed to proprietary PEF)
  • Top mono status LCD
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/klopus
 
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