K10 / XTi: All things being equal...

Ken Smith said:

So, assuming that the two cameras do come in neck and neck, and
taking the fact that the K10 has in-camera IS, can someone give me
their opinion on going towards one camera or the other.

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You must be overwhelmed by all the different opinions by now

Apart from deciding on the key camera specific features, my best advice is to hold both cameras when K10D arrives, look through the viewfinder and give them a spin. You should be able to make a decision pretty quickly.

Do note that K10D does not have picture/scenery modes. But since you are an accomplished photographer, you don't need them. That's why I think you will be intrigued by the unique K10D control. The HyperProgram mode (Phil called it "genius") acts like 3 modes, Program-Tv-Av, in one, and you can freely switch between them in real time and no mode switching. The Sv sensitivity priority (you can set ISO in the control wheels) and TAv (auto ISO with set aperture/shutter speed) modes should also be useful to you (won't be surprised that they will be copied by others).

Reading specs and opinions is fine. But nothing beats handling one in real life.

Jim King said:

As I posted elsewhere in response to a similar question, if I were
you I would choose the Pentax for its:

• Viewfinder
• Ergonomics
• Shake Reduction

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All true
Just ad the environmental sealing (if you really need)

Jim King said:

IQ is likely to be similar at practical image sizes.

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Not necessarily. In low light conditions it may be some noticeable difference. Better to wait for complete reviews.

Jim King said:

If small size/weight are paramount then the Canon might be what you
are looking for. You will give up some significant other
features/characteristics, though.

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The differences in weight are not so noticeable.
More important is how you feel in hands.
Not had in hands K10, but A100 was the best respect the others.

Jim King said:

--
Jim King - Retired Colormonger - Suburban Detroit, Michigan, USA;
GMT -4h (EDT)



* * * * *
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the
subject.

• Sir Winston Churchill

* * * * *
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its
limits.

• Albert Einstein

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--
GiorgioPM

ngap said:

Edvinas said:

Ken, you must be joking. You try to compare cameras which are from
completely different levels.

Canon 400D is an Canon's entry level. Pentax K10D is supposed to
compete (featurewise) with Canon 30D and Nikon D80-D200. It is just
so underpriced that pricewise it looks like and competitor for 400D.

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Is it under priced or are the others over priced?
If Pentax is making a profit on them, you can't claim they are
under priced.

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Difficult to say, if you aren't inside the companies.

Pentax (Samsung) may decide to underprice K10 to brake through (and then sell sealed lenses).

But this would not be a bad policy for the customers' point of view, because you buy bodies more often then lenses.

--
GiorgioPM

hardsuit01 said:

hardsuit wrote:

10mp = the canon is useing the smaller cmos 10mp sensor.
not like the 20/30d with a bigger and better quality sensor.
the pentax is useing a bigger 10mp ccd compared to canon.

noise = look at phils reviews cmos vs ccd.
while the cmos (canon) is lower noise its quality suffers.
pentax uses the same sony ccd used by minolta, samsung, nikon.
while the ccd is noiser by default , it produces more like film grain.
canon rife with high color noise wich mars low contrast subjects.
i.e. hair, dark skin, trees, etc.

durability.

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Not important if you are not a professional: the camera will become obsolete much before to wear-out

hardsuit01 said:

the K10d is a metal body . canon plastic matchbox kit body.
the K10d is a dustproof/ water resistant body.
oh, canon cannot get wet or play in the sand.
oh, and lets not forget the pentax
is standard with a metal mount lens. canon is still a plastic kit
kens.

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Nothing of bad in the plastic, if you use the camera only during holidays and you don't plan to take photos in windy deserts or in the Amazonia forest.

The 400D with plastic kit lenses is more intended for beginners that need to try before select their way.

K10 is a good camera for low budget young professionals or advanced amateurs that don't want to dry up their pockets.

In the past Pentax was giving much better quality than Canon in the budget segments. May be they will continue this policy.

Canon can sell overpriced low level cameras just because the image coming from top leve models seen everywhere in the hands of professionals.

hardsuit01 said:

--
' lets see what's out there.....engage'

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--
GiorgioPM

However, it would be naive to suggest that Canon's system approach is not superior to Nikon's for many users. However, back to my original point, there is ZERO assurance that any PENTAX customers have an upgrade path, any more than Olympus or Sony customers do.

And the fact is, That IS the reason why, today, if I were looking for a system WITH such an upgrade path, I wouldn't choose any brand but Nikon or Canon.

Certainly, to ME, the system upgrade path would be a FAR more important decision criteria for choosing an entry point into any system, than in-body image stabilization would be. It may not be to some other users, but my point is, that depends on the user. It's utterly absurd to say that EVERYONE has to value in body image stabilization more than the upgrade path to pro-caliber body, just as it would be absurd to suggest the opposite. Which is why it is HARDLY conclusive that the Pentax is a better choice than a D80. It might be for some, and it might not be for others.

Hence, I'd conclude that the Nikon D80 and the Pentax K10D are basically equivalent cameras, with the Pentax having some advantages, and the Nikon having other advantages. Oh, and the Nikon D80 also has the advantage of being available, and tested. The Pentax is currently a promise, priced aggressively so that it can hold mind share while it is still unavailable. So, if you needed to get a DSLR camera in the next month, the Pentax K10D would be pretty darn worthless.

And you missed MY point. Which is, If I really NEEDED a 5 FPS body, the 20D is not sufficient for the REST of what I would need, which would include a much more up to date camera.

Big deal, it's 5 FPS. It's not competitive in any other way, with any OTHER 5 FPS camera out there, because it's over 2 year old technology.

Joe0Bloggs said:

if the Pentax people were as warlike as most of the other brand
users

If you don't want to start a war, the best bet is actually to make
separate threads in each brand forum. That way you keep the
fanatics from each brand off each others' necks because they won't
see each other in the same thread!

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Good idea to have separate threads for fanatics, but not separate threads for different brands.

Comparisons are important, if people are polite. Everyone should have the possibility to express his opinion, if he/she (or she/he ?) don't offends anybody.

--
GiorgioPM

GiorgioPM said:

If You are discussing about $1000 cameras, it means you are not a
professional.
Do you really need all those Nikon or Canon Systems or Pentax plus
3rd party are more than enough? (remember that in body IS makes
attractive good 3rd party lenses).
Think about what you really need. And, if one day you'll become a
professional you'll have the budget to trash all and buy pro.

--
GiorgioPM

Click to expand...

Not true. Many people start out with limited budgets, and try to stretch into becoming pros. Not even every pro has the funds to buy $5K bodies. Plenty of pros are using Nikon D200 and Canon 30D bodies as their main cameras. The fact is, the upgrade path is very important to people with pro ASPIRATIONS, but not yet pro budgets. Pentax is currently a dead end system for these folks. (So are Olympus and Sony, BTW, at least right now, future promises notwithstanding).

DougJGreen said:

GiorgioPM said:

If You are discussing about $1000 cameras, it means you are not a
professional.
Do you really need all those Nikon or Canon Systems or Pentax plus
3rd party are more than enough? (remember that in body IS makes
attractive good 3rd party lenses).
Think about what you really need. And, if one day you'll become a
professional you'll have the budget to trash all and buy pro.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

And what do you save of your entry level Canon system if you go PRO?

And don't tell me you can sell all, because you can do the same with Pentax, but you can start with a pro body and the in body IS can allow you to buy Sigma EX half the price (or less) than Canon L IS.

DougJGreen said:

DougJGreen said:

--
GiorgioPM

Click to expand...

Not true. Many people start out with limited budgets, and try to
stretch into becoming pros. Not even every pro has the funds to
buy $5K bodies. Plenty of pros are using Nikon D200 and Canon 30D
bodies as their main cameras. The fact is, the upgrade path is
very important to people with pro ASPIRATIONS, but not yet pro
budgets. Pentax is currently a dead end system for these folks.
(So are Olympus and Sony, BTW, at least right now, future promises
notwithstanding).

Click to expand...

--
GiorgioPM

Right, sorry.
I red bad some misleading specifications
--
GiorgioPM

DougJGreen said:

The fact is, the upgrade path is very important to people with
pro ASPIRATIONS, but not yet pro budgets.

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Perhaps we should address the original poster's concern?
Ken is already a PRO! Have you checked out his gallery?

If he can produce such images with a Dimage 7, I am sure he would do just fine with any DSLRs. That's why I think the camera handling and comfort should be his main selection criteria.

And that way, you don't have to worry about different sensor sizes.

That being said, It's perfectly reasonable to use a Canon 30D or a Nikon D200 for pro work. Plenty of pros do. And then, I'd say you keep all of your other gear.

However, you are right about the discontinuity of sensor size in the Canon family. Which, to me, is one of the main reason that I'd buy Nikons instead. And THAT was my point.

If he's already in the Minolta system, then, I'd say he should buy Sony gear as long as the system meets his needs. And if Sony's evolution of the Minolta system DOESN'T meet his needs, I seriously doubt that Pentax would either. They are approximately equal in their limitations.

DougJGreen said:

If he's already in the Minolta system, then, I'd say he should buy
Sony gear as long as the system meets his needs.

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maybe you should read the whole thread, especially Ken's post.

Dimage 7 is a prosumer camera with a fixed lens. This makes his gallery all the more impressive.

And that would rule out the Pentax K10D.

In all seriousness, I think that the Pentax will turn out to be a nice entry point for anyone who doesn't need to do the types of things that most pro photographers do (such as shoot with big teles at 5 FPS, shooting with remotely controlled cameras, shooting with multi-point lighting etc.)

Now, the fact may be that the OP is a pro, but his needs are clearly much less demanding than that of most pros, who need the capabilities that I described above. Apparently, Ken could do fine with ANY DSLR, so, of course, he should get what he's comfortable with.

But the relative difference between what he has now, and the LOWEST END DSLR that is available, is much bigger than the difference between those low DSLR cameras, and the next higher up ones in the range of $1000 for a body.

But I would suggest, that NO BRAND's 18-55mm kit lens will meet his needs at all. Not the Pentax, Not the Nikon, not the Canon, etc. etc. So, therefore, he should be looking at the better glass, and deciding what he needs based on the lenses he will want. The lenses are FAR more important than the difference between one brand's $800-1200 body and those of another brand. In ANY case, it would be foolish to get a nice $800 to $1200 body, and put a junk $100 lens on it. And if his price range maxed out at $1200, then he would be far better served getting a cheap $700 body and a good $4-500 lens, from ANY brand.

that lets you take a different, let alone better, picture than the 20D.

GiorgioPM said:

Do you really need all those Nikon or Canon Systems or Pentax plus
3rd party are more than enough? (remember that in body IS makes
attractive good 3rd party lenses).

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I think it is pointless buying third party lenses for a Pentax. Pentax lens quality is the biggest plus with the Pentax system...
If you don't want Pentax lenses why not buy a Canon instead?

GiorgioPM said:

DougJGreen said:

GiorgioPM said:

If You are discussing about $1000 cameras, it means you are not a
professional.
Do you really need all those Nikon or Canon Systems or Pentax plus
3rd party are more than enough? (remember that in body IS makes
attractive good 3rd party lenses).
Think about what you really need. And, if one day you'll become a
professional you'll have the budget to trash all and buy pro.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

And what do you save of your entry level Canon system if you go PRO?
And don't tell me you can sell all, because you can do the same
with Pentax, but you can start with a pro body and the in body IS
can allow you to buy Sigma EX half the price (or less) than Canon L
IS.

Click to expand...

That is a good point... if you start off with either camera and a couple of the consumer or midrange zooms, you may upgrade the lenses as well as the body when you do upgrade, so switching systems would not be all that different from upgrading within the system. Although I think a lot of people will be upgrading one lens at a time and slowly build up a collection of better and better stuff. Upgrading to a 1 series and a couple of L lenses would be just easy from a midrange Canon body and lenses as it would from Pentax and a couple of midrange lenses if you did it all at once. Somewhat different story if you had accumulated a few L lenses over the course of time though.

GiorgioPM said:

GiorgioPM said:

GiorgioPM said:

--
GiorgioPM

Click to expand...

Not true. Many people start out with limited budgets, and try to
stretch into becoming pros. Not even every pro has the funds to
buy $5K bodies. Plenty of pros are using Nikon D200 and Canon 30D
bodies as their main cameras. The fact is, the upgrade path is
very important to people with pro ASPIRATIONS, but not yet pro
budgets. Pentax is currently a dead end system for these folks.
(So are Olympus and Sony, BTW, at least right now, future promises
notwithstanding).

Click to expand...

--
GiorgioPM

Click to expand...

--



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DougJGreen said:

In all seriousness, I think that the Pentax will turn out to be a
nice entry point for anyone who doesn't need to do the types of
things that most pro photographers do (such as shoot with big teles
at 5 FPS, shooting with remotely controlled cameras, shooting with
multi-point lighting etc.)

Click to expand...

Most pros do not shoot with long teles or at 5fps or with remote controlled cameras. Most pros I know doesn't even own lenses longer than 300mm.
What you describe above are rather particular needs...

DougJGreen said:

Now, the fact may be that the OP is a pro, but his needs are
clearly much less demanding than that of most pros, who need the
capabilities that I described above.

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I think he should buy the camera that fits his needs.

You can argue endlessly about image quality, but the truth of the matter is that most cameras with 10mp+ are about equal, with different strengths. But if this is your first DSLR and you have no glass commitment, then you should think 1) This will not be your last DSLR, and probably not even your last system -- you will change in the future. 2) The Pentax has an ocean of cheap and really good used glass behind it. As rumors about this camera start to get around, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of the used glass starts to go up. But right now, you could get a heck of a system for under $2000. That's less than the cost of a 5D body alone; and as far as I know, the Pentax is, by far, the cheapest of the environmentally sealed bodies.

If money is not an issue, and I was really serious about pro photography, I'd probably go with either a Nikon or Canon system, because repairs and parts are available almost anywhere in the world. On the other hand, come to think of it, since you can buy two Pentaxes for less than the cost of one pro/semipro Canon, maybe instead of thinking repairs and spare parts, you could just get two.

JC