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K10 / XTi: All things being equal...

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And BTW, that's more than sufficient reason why the camera itself is obsolete. In the digital world, the firmware is where the functionality is determined - and as you so rightly acknowledge, the 20D's is not up to current standards, so Canon is, essentially, charging several hundred dollars for a firmware upgrade. And the OLD firmware camera, is now not competitive with the class of cameras you misguidedly put it in.
 
zygh said:
DougJGreen wrote:
so, your point is that no-one should be anything else but niko and
canon because they might wanna upgrade later?!? silly boy!
Click to expand...
No, just that the lack of an upgrade path is a MAJOR shortcoming, which neither Nikon or Canon users in the $1000 class face, but Pentax and other brands DO face. You completely discounted this major weakness in putting Pentax in the top 2 spots. The fact is, any DSLR is partly about the individual camera, and partly about the system. And the Pentax SYSTEM comes up short, relative to Nikon or Canon. There is no avoiding that fact. YOU might not be advanced enough to care, but many other DSLR users do care, and they will not buy the Pentax, irrespective of the fact that the K10D is itself a nice camera, because, as Peggy Lee sang: "Is that all there is?"
 
DougJGreen said:
No, just that the lack of an upgrade path is a MAJOR shortcoming,
which neither Nikon or Canon users in the $1000 class face, but
Pentax and other brands DO face. You completely discounted this
major weakness in putting Pentax in the top 2 spots. The fact is,
any DSLR is partly about the individual camera, and partly about
the system. And the Pentax SYSTEM comes up short, relative to
Nikon or Canon. There is no avoiding that fact. YOU might not be
advanced enough to care, but many other DSLR users do care, and
they will not buy the Pentax, irrespective of the fact that the
K10D is itself a nice camera, because, as Peggy Lee sang: "Is that
all there is?"
Click to expand...
I think there is some merit to this argument, but you are overstating the significance of it to many users. A K10D with a couple of the upcoming DA* lenses and several of their nicer primes will be a very capable and complete system for a large number of photographers. With a few exceptions - some of them deal-breakers, some of them not, depending on the photographer - it takes pretty deep pockets to get to what Canon and Nikon have that Pentax doesn't. I know a few Canon and Nikon users who have nothing better than 3rd party consumer zooms or even just kit lenses.

--
http://www.pixelstatic.com
 
DougJGreen said:
No, just that the lack of an upgrade path is a MAJOR shortcoming,
which neither Nikon or Canon users in the $1000 class face, but
Pentax and other brands DO face.
Click to expand...
Pentax reps have said that they are preparing the launch of a flagship model so there is an upgrade path coming. And there will of course be the usual upgrade in 18 months or so.

Looking at Canon 20D users complaining about the small step taken with the 30D upgrade and awaiting the "40D" it seems like the upgrade path for the $1000 camera users is the next iteration of that camera. Or maybe another brands better offering!

If anyone wanna take the pro step, whats stopping him or her from switching brand? If you are a such a good photographer that you can make a living out of it the cost of the tools you use should not be an issue.

Personally I think that the "no upgrade path reasoning is nonsense".

Mats
 
DougJGreen said:
The fact is,
any DSLR is partly about the individual camera, and partly about
the system. And the Pentax SYSTEM comes up short, relative to
Nikon or Canon. There is no avoiding that fact. YOU might not be
advanced enough to care, but many other DSLR users do care, and
they will not buy the Pentax, irrespective of the fact that the
K10D is itself a nice camera, because, as Peggy Lee sang: "Is that
all there is?"
Click to expand...
Your logic is flawed. I'm old enough to remember that Canon sold lots of cameras to advanced amateurs and pros when there was only 16 lenses available for the EOS system.
 
I have used my *ist D for astrophoto with exposure time up to 5 min.

I normally take 10 to 15 shots with noise reduction turned off. I also take dark frame and flats. They all get convoluted together to get the final picture. BTW this is the same technique you would use with a Canon or Nikon.

Vincenzo
tammons said:
Hmm, I might have to try one out.

How do you think it will be for say 15-20 second exposures. I
originally bought the XTI for astro etc. Not that I even have a
decent scope set up yet.

--
http://www.troyammons.com
http://www.pbase.com/tammons
Click to expand...
 
You seem to be missing my point: where else are you gonna find a 5fps semi-pro body for less than 1000$???
DougJGreen said:
And BTW, that's more than sufficient reason why the camera itself
is obsolete. In the digital world, the firmware is where the
functionality is determined - and as you so rightly acknowledge,
the 20D's is not up to current standards, so Canon is, essentially,
charging several hundred dollars for a firmware upgrade. And the
OLD firmware camera, is now not competitive with the class of
cameras you misguidedly put it in.
Click to expand...
 
I'm glad you brought this up, Doug.

If you want an upgrade path for Canon then you will also have to sell all your APS-C 400D/30D lenses and buy all new ones for the FF bodies. How about that? Isn't that almost like switching systems all together?
DougJGreen said:
zygh said:
DougJGreen wrote:
so, your point is that no-one should buy anything else but nikon
and canon because they might wanna upgrade later?!? silly boy!
Click to expand...
No, just that the lack of an upgrade path is a MAJOR shortcoming,
which neither Nikon or Canon users in the $1000 class face, but
Pentax and other brands DO face. You completely discounted this
major weakness in putting Pentax in the top 2 spots. The fact is,
any DSLR is partly about the individual camera, and partly about
the system. And the Pentax SYSTEM comes up short, relative to
Nikon or Canon. There is no avoiding that fact. YOU might not be
advanced enough to care, but many other DSLR users do care, and
they will not buy the Pentax, irrespective of the fact that the
K10D is itself a nice camera, because, as Peggy Lee sang: "Is that
all there is?"
Click to expand...
 
As usual... each camera has its own set of pros and cons, it reminds me a bit of the Canon 5d, where it has a couple of pro features... but also lacks a few too. I would say the K10D competes with the 30D pretty closely, although the 30D does seem to have an edge(not a huge one tho, and price levels that out).
Steven Noyes said:
645D said:
1) K10D have environmental seals. 5D does not. All Pro bodie like
1D or D2 series have.
Click to expand...
1) 5D has a huge 17 frame RAW buffer. K10D only has a 9 frame
buffer. This is extremely important in operation when shooting
RAW. Much more than DNG as an option.
Steven Noyes said:
2) K10D has ISO in viewfinder. 5D does not. 1D series has.
Click to expand...
2) 5D has a MUCH large sensor. Pro cameras like the 1 series also
have a larger sensor.
Steven Noyes said:
3) K10D has more RAW process option, including the RAW button. RAW
handling is most important for Professionals.
Click to expand...
3) 5D has a true MLU (like the 1 series and D2 series) the K10D
does not. This is critical when using long lenses and other big
glass like many pros use. What is the point of the RAW button. I
know what it does, but what is the point. Sounds lots like the
print button to me IMHO.

4) 5D has more JPEG procession options. For many pros this is very
important.
Steven Noyes said:
Why K10D is way above D30?
1) K10D has no pre-programed shooting modes (i.e. Sports, Portrait...)
Click to expand...
1) The 30D is what ??? 5 fps?
Steven Noyes said:
2) K10D has USER (Custom) mode instead, just like 5D has.
Click to expand...
2) The 3D has a magnesium composite body. Like the 1 series and
D2/D200
Steven Noyes said:
As for reasons why K10D not perceived as PRO?
1) Price too low to be PRO?
Click to expand...
Plastic body?
Steven Noyes said:
2) Has SR and Dust Reduction, these are totally unpro-ish?
Click to expand...
the 30D has ISO 3200 ISO extension. Also already has a huge
selection of in lens IS already available. I question the Dust
Reduction of the A100 (so-so ability) VS the Olympus SWF (Canon
uses a similar technique).
Steven Noyes said:
3) APC sensor? D2x uses APC sensor, thus unprofessional?
Click to expand...
Don't fool yourself on having a 30D as a backup to a 5D/1Ds/1Ds Mk
II FF body is a great option.
Steven Noyes said:
4) K10D not fast enough? 1Ds only 4fps, 5D is 3fsp, all not as fast
Click to expand...
1Ds is 4 years old, 3 fps and > 1MP more.
1Ds Mk II is 2 years old, 1 fps more + almost 7MP more.
5D is almost 2MP more and same fps with a 17 RAW buffer VS a 9
frame RAW buffer. Not bad for a driver chip three years older.
Steven Noyes said:
as 30D. Which is more pro?
Click to expand...
Mostly because of construction and higher speed of operation, the
30D still has a slight edge. The K10D is a sweet camera (I have
been saying that over and over) but it is WAY below the 1 series
and really is between the rebel and the 30D. In many aspects it is
right below the 30D and way above the Rebel. The fun part is the
K10D is clearly above the D80 and still cheaper.

Steven

--
---
2006 Southern Arizona Monsoon Wildflowers
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_summer_2006_ii

Fall 2006:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_fall_2006

Click to expand...
--



Technical Info: Roseart U.S.A. Gold #2 pencil, Pentel High Polymer eraser, Academie sketch pad drawing paper. Drawn clumsily under relatively poor light.

http://www.geocities.com/wild_tiger_1

http://flickr.com/photos/selrahcharles/
 
realjag said:
I shoot with both the XTi and the original Pentax *istD......the
istD high ISO performance is much better than my XTi.

I have heard that the DS and DL are not so good but expect the K10
to be at least as good as the D and hopefully better.
Click to expand...
And the Pentax viewfinder is used to be better, more bright.

--
GiorgioPM
 
rgmoore said:
Ken Smith said:
So, assuming that the two cameras do come in neck and neck, and
taking the fact that the K10 has in-camera IS, can someone give me
their opinion on going towards one camera or the other.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about the difference
between the bodies. What you need is some very careful attention
is the available choice of lenses, which could go either way
depending on your preferences. Canon has a really impressive
selection of lenses, but they haven't gone in big for designs
specific for their APS-C cameras. Pentax doesn't have quite the
general selection, but they've gone whole hog for digital lenses,
including by far the best selection of digital specific primes.
Click to expand...
But the in body IS allows you to add the best SIGMA and TAMRON to the list.

Canon IS L are not so cheap to be considered appropriate for an entry level camera.
If you buy those, probably better to go toward a different class of body.

Pentax offers a Pro like body for budget level segment.
It depends on the level you wish to arrive in the future.
rgmoore said:
--
As with all creative work, the craft must be adequate for the
demands of expression. I am disturbed when I find craft relegated
to inferior consideration; I believe that the euphoric involvement
with subject or self is not sufficient to justify the making and
display of photographic images. --Ansel Adams
Click to expand...
--
GiorgioPM
 
CharlieDIY said:
I don't get your statement about "if 10 MP is enough for you".
Seems to me the biggest problem facing APS sized sensor users, at
least that I've read, is whether or not the glass is up to 10 MP.
Click to expand...
If you print under 13x17"" 10Mp are more than enough.
May be more important some improvements in noise and color control.

If you have in mind huge posters (and have the budget), probably better to buy Canon entry level and wait FF drops down into the budget to upgrade.
CharlieDIY said:
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
Click to expand...
--
GiorgioPM
 
645D said:
Why K10D is way above D30?
1) K10D has no pre-programed shooting modes (i.e. Sports, Portrait...)
2) K10D has USER (Custom) mode instead, just like 5D has.

As for reasons why K10D not perceived as PRO?
1) Price too low to be PRO?
2) Has SR and Dust Reduction, these are totally unpro-ish?
3) APC sensor? D2x uses APC sensor, thus unprofessional?
4) K10D not fast enough? 1Ds only 4fps, 5D is 3fsp, all not as fast
as 30D. Which is more pro?
--
Muzi
Steven Noyes said:
It is closer (but not quite) a 30D class beast and a bit more below
the D200. But it offers some amazing performance for the buck and
it would be hard not to choose it if:

1) you have no glass.

2) 10MP is enough for you.

3) you are looking at under $1000.

It is a sweet looking option offering most (plus some extras) of
what the D200/D30 offer at a cheaper price.

But it is along way from the 1 series and D2 series.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I would add a better Pentax viewfinder (may be except the top FF).

Probably, to make those comparisons, it would be better to see the IQ in a K10 full review.

About everything else I agree.
645D said:
645D said:
Steven
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
GiorgioPM
 
zygh said:
You seem to be missing my point: where else are you gonna find a
5fps semi-pro body for less than 1000$???
Click to expand...
1) The body of the 20D can't be competitive with the "rugged" K10
2) Everybody needs 5 fps? NOTE: 5 fps JPEG (!!!)

On the other hand, how many NON-PRO really need environmental sealing?
Just if you go in Amazonia ot shoot under the rain.

Remember that a camera is not anymore intended for the life. In not intended for professional use every good camera lasts more than it becomes obsolete.

I am using a Sony consumer digital miniDV camcorder since 2001 and very often in US deserts at temperatures over 100-110F. This year I was in Death Valley at a temperature of 127F (53C) and down in Grand Canyon at 110F: still working fine.
zygh said:
DougJGreen said:
And BTW, that's more than sufficient reason why the camera itself
is obsolete. In the digital world, the firmware is where the
functionality is determined - and as you so rightly acknowledge,
the 20D's is not up to current standards, so Canon is, essentially,
charging several hundred dollars for a firmware upgrade. And the
OLD firmware camera, is now not competitive with the class of
cameras you misguidedly put it in.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
GiorgioPM
 
DougJGreen said:
zygh said:
DougJGreen wrote:
so, your point is that no-one should be anything else but niko and
canon because they might wanna upgrade later?!? silly boy!
Click to expand...
No, just that the lack of an upgrade path is a MAJOR shortcoming,
which neither Nikon or Canon users in the $1000 class face, but
Pentax and other brands DO face. You completely discounted this
major weakness in putting Pentax in the top 2 spots. The fact is,
any DSLR is partly about the individual camera, and partly about
the system. And the Pentax SYSTEM comes up short, relative to
Nikon or Canon. There is no avoiding that fact. YOU might not be
advanced enough to care, but many other DSLR users do care, and
they will not buy the Pentax, irrespective of the fact that the
K10D is itself a nice camera, because, as Peggy Lee sang: "Is that
all there is?"
Click to expand...
If You are discussing about $1000 cameras, it means you are not a professional.

Do you really need all those Nikon or Canon Systems or Pentax plus 3rd party are more than enough? (remember that in body IS makes attractive good 3rd party lenses).

Think about what you really need. And, if one day you'll become a professional you'll have the budget to trash all and buy pro.

--
GiorgioPM
 
Leon Wittwer said:
You and others are looking at a snapshot in time. A few months
from now, a lot may have happened. Canon may have released another
camera that competes better with the Pentax. New lenses may come
out. Regardless of what you buy now, you may decide to upgrade
camera bodies in the future. Which brand (not necessarily Canon or
Pentax) might provide the best path to whereever?
Click to expand...
And looking for upgrade path, what about wait for end of November and see if Sony enters quickly in competition?

If a pro is announced before Christmas and delivered in 2007, a good choice could be a A100 too.

Sony needs to push to improve his image, otherwise didn't discontinue the Minolta label.

May be I am wrong, but I would wait for end of November, unless I was plenty of glass and the choice driven by that.
Leon Wittwer said:
--
Leon
http://homepage.mac.com/leonwittwer/landscapes.htm
Click to expand...
--
GiorgioPM
 
I too was a long term D7 user but I switched to Pentax a while ago.

You would find the Pentax more than adequate for your needs, and with some of their prime glass, the quality will amaze you.

The 400D will be equal in image quality no doubt - they all seem close - but in-body anti shake is very useful and the Pentax offers a few useful features such as a spot meter that may come in handy for your kind of work.

I looked at your gallery and was very impressed. Living proof that the photographer is far more important than the camera. I think you could hardly fail to do a great job with either camera, but I'm addicted to Pentax primes and would find it hard to change now (Canon ones are also good if you want to pay a little more but I find the Pentax ones special).

Wait until the detailed reviews are out and then decide by all means, and if you can then try them both in the shop first.
Ken Smith said:
Kendall Helmstetter Gelner said:
Do you have any thought to the reasons why you want a DSLR, and the
kind of shooting you plan to do? What have you been shooting until
now? It seems like if you do not have glass you are probably
coming from a P&S but I don't want to make any assumptions as to
your experience...
Click to expand...
Kendall:

Thank you for not making assumptions..

I have been shooting with a Minolta Dimage 7 ever since it was
introduced. The reason I want to step up because I feel I have used
the D7 to its limitations and have grown tired of some of the
issues with it such as high noise, extreme appetite for batteries,
slow AF and the limitations of a fixed 7 times lens among other
issues I suppose.

Don't get me wrong, the D7 has been a great camera for what it
is/was, and it has allowed me to produce a lot of work of which I
make my living at. I print a lot of my pieces on canvas and have
been able to produce some fairly large work from 5MP, but I am
getting a lot of requests for even larger pieces and a jump from 5
MP to 10, will be a substantial benefit to me.

Continuious shooting doesn't mean a lot to me as most of my work is
florals, landscapes, occasionally some wildlife, etc.

If you are interested, take a look at http://www.klsimages.com for
examples of the type of things I have been doing with the Minolta.

Thanks for your interest Kendall.

Sincerely,
--
Kenneth Lane Smith
Click to expand...
--
Steve
Measurebating makes you short sighted.
http://www.pbase.com/steve_jacob
 
Kendall Helmstetter Gelner said:
Ken Smith said:
I thought I was ready to buy a Canon XTi by the end of the year
based on the previews. Since then, I have read the new XTi review
and the Pentax K10 preview and while the K10 has not been reviewed
yet, I am starting to think that it may be a very serious contender
to the XTi.

The purchase, of whatever I decide, will be my first dSLR and as of
yet I have no investment in any glass. The only thing I do have is
some money in CF cards.
Click to expand...
Do you have any thought to the reasons why you want a DSLR, and the
kind of shooting you plan to do? What have you been shooting until
now? It seems like if you do not have glass you are probably
coming from a P&S but I don't want to make any assumptions as to
your experience...
Click to expand...
This comment don't helps anybody.

I suggest you to wait the end of November to see if new competitors enter in the pro arena (Sony?).

Then have in mind that a camera becomes obsolete after 3-4 years: it won't never be considered an investment.

Evalute what you now need and the cheapest that meets your expectation is the best.

Go in a shop, put cameras in your hands and see which one is more comfortable for you.
Lenses don't improve so dramatically in the time, so they can be an investment.

But also those ... who could image that Olympus could discontinue the huge OM system? Buy what you need and don't think so much to the long term.
Kendall Helmstetter Gelner said:
--
---> Kendall
http://InsideAperture.com
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/user_home
Click to expand...
--
GiorgioPM
 
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