Reading mode: Light Dark

Time to let go?

Go to last post
well said.

The thing is.. Canon could implement a double safety mechanism.

1. You open the door while its writing it beeps.

2. To get the card out you have to remove a little clip or something and IF you do that while its still writng it kills the buffer.

But who would want to pay for this?

The other consideration from canon is that they would get bashing left right and center if their cameras may corrupt the entire CF card...

Matt
 
Chato said:
Matt said:
if the option is the camera does nothing when you open the cf door
then I would consider that a fault as the user without steel mind
could yank the card and potentially have all images lost...

Matt
Click to expand...
The write light is next to the door. The camera ceases to write
only when I push the release.
Click to expand...
The write light is next to the door latch (less than 1cm on my D2X, D100, and D200). The card eject button is 4x farther from the CF light than the CF door latch is.
Chato said:
In other words as I reach to pull the card, it's easy to notice the
bright green led indicator. To protect the actual card, the release
lever shuts off the write mechanism.
Click to expand...
Not "shuts off", a more proper word is "crashes". There's no mechanism to get a message back to the camera that the card is about to be ejected: instead a complex parallel data interface has its lines broken (and possibly reestablished and broken again) in random order as pins and sockets of slightly different lengths and conditions (due to corrosion and other effects) break contact.
Chato said:
Yes, I would call the existing Canon set-up a fault.
Click to expand...
Canon doesn't. That "fault" costs them money, a door sensor that has to be added to every camera.
Chato said:
I say that
because the above scenario has occured with me. And sorry about the
steel trap remark, but you have called Phil's calling attention to
this irrational. I don't think so. The implementation on my machine
has saved me a lot of shots. As buffers grow - And mine is up to I
believe 19 NEF's, it becomes more and more important.
Click to expand...
That just increases the vulnerable time. As that camera sits, writing data, someone who has already ignored a light that is close to the first button or lever that needed to be pressed (the door latch) has now moved their attention to a button that is farther from the light (on the D200, it's even around the side of the camera, while the light is on the back). Is it reasonable to assume that the person who ignored the light in pressing the first button is going to respect it when time comes to press the second?

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Matt said:
well said.

The thing is.. Canon could implement a double safety mechanism.

1. You open the door while its writing it beeps.

2. To get the card out you have to remove a little clip or
something and IF you do that while its still writng it kills the
buffer.

But who would want to pay for this?

The other consideration from canon is that they would get bashing
left right and center if their cameras may corrupt the entire CF
card...

Matt
Click to expand...
Since the supposition is incorrect, AND since implementation would cost peanuts, what's the big deal. Just what does a simple micro switch cost anyway. I've bought them for a dollar a piece in three packs on Canal Street. I would bet Nikon and Canon could do better... :)

Dave
 
Chato said:
Matt said:
if the option is the camera does nothing when you open the cf door
then I would consider that a fault as the user without steel mind
could yank the card and potentially have all images lost...

Matt
Click to expand...
The write light is next to the door. The camera ceases to write
only when I push the release.

In other words as I reach to pull the card, it's easy to notice the
bright green led indicator. To protect the actual card, the release
lever shuts off the write mechanism.
Click to expand...
thats probably a better system ... I think Canon is aqueezing the pennies with their models ..
Chato said:
Yes, I would call the existing Canon set-up a fault. I say that
because the above scenario has occured with me. And sorry about the
steel trap remark, but you have called Phil's calling attention to
this irrational. I don't think so. The implementation on my machine
has saved me a lot of shots. As buffers grow - And mine is up to I
believe 19 NEF's, it becomes more and more important.
Click to expand...
No worries about the steel trap ;)

I didnt say Phil's attention to this is irrational I just think Canon understands this as a feature and will not abandon it just because the Phil wants it gone ...

Matt
 
Chato said:
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Chato said:
When I open the door of my D2x, the green light stays on, the
camera continues to write to the buffer. It's a safty feature so
that I get a last warning. So that those oh so important shots are
not lost. If I push the card release, the camera stops writing so
that I don't hurt the card.
Click to expand...
But if you push the release while the card is writing, you can
corrupt the card and lose everything. That's a characteristic of
the FAT file system and compact flash cards. During a write, an
entire block (typically 64 k on the larger cards) is erased and
rewritten. If that block is the directory or the FAT (file
allocation table), you lose the ability for the file system to
"find" the data on the card, so all the pictures become
inaccessible.

So, you're technically correct in that ejecting during a write
won't "hurt the card", but you could lose all the data on the card.

So, the big question is, if someone would press the "door open"
button or lever while the CF light is on, is it reasonable to
assume that they would then press the "eject" button while the CF
light is on?
Click to expand...
He, heh, just before I made my post I checked on this. Pushing the
release button on the D2x immediatly stops the write mechanism.
Click to expand...
It "crashes" the write mechanism, at a random time in the write cycle, and it could be at a time when you'd lose all the data.
Chato said:
So yes, opening the door implies the removal of the card. But
Nikon, at least on my D2x, was one step ahead. Pushing the release
(which is the only way to get the card out) breaks the juice to the
write head. :)

Since the juice is off - card will be just fine.
Click to expand...
But the data won't. If the data that is waiting to be written is the directory or the FAT table, all the data, every file that has already been written to the card, is gone.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Chato said:
Matt said:
well said.

The thing is.. Canon could implement a double safety mechanism.

1. You open the door while its writing it beeps.

2. To get the card out you have to remove a little clip or
something and IF you do that while its still writng it kills the
buffer.

But who would want to pay for this?

The other consideration from canon is that they would get bashing
left right and center if their cameras may corrupt the entire CF
card...

Matt
Click to expand...
Since the supposition is incorrect, AND since implementation would
cost peanuts, what's the big deal. Just what does a simple micro
switch cost anyway. I've bought them for a dollar a piece in three
packs on Canal Street. I would bet Nikon and Canon could do
better... :)
Click to expand...
They design the cameras saving money everywhere ... You could say it doesnt hurt to add $5 in total for an elaborate CF system but then where do you stop?

On the new rebel they already did away with one LCD .. that may only have saved $10 but it adds up and by saving here and there you have a cheap DSLR

Matt
 
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Chato said:
Matt said:
if the option is the camera does nothing when you open the cf door
then I would consider that a fault as the user without steel mind
could yank the card and potentially have all images lost...

Matt
Click to expand...
The write light is next to the door. The camera ceases to write
only when I push the release.
Click to expand...
The write light is next to the door latch (less than 1cm on my D2X,
D100, and D200). The card eject button is 4x farther from the CF
light than the CF door latch is.
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
In other words as I reach to pull the card, it's easy to notice the
bright green led indicator. To protect the actual card, the release
lever shuts off the write mechanism.
Click to expand...
Not "shuts off", a more proper word is "crashes". There's no
mechanism to get a message back to the camera that the card is
about to be ejected: instead a complex parallel data interface has
its lines broken (and possibly reestablished and broken again) in
random order as pins and sockets of slightly different lengths and
conditions (due to corrosion and other effects) break contact.
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Yes, I would call the existing Canon set-up a fault.
Click to expand...
Canon doesn't. That "fault" costs them money, a door sensor that
has to be added to every camera.
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
I say that
because the above scenario has occured with me. And sorry about the
steel trap remark, but you have called Phil's calling attention to
this irrational. I don't think so. The implementation on my machine
has saved me a lot of shots. As buffers grow - And mine is up to I
believe 19 NEF's, it becomes more and more important.
Click to expand...
That just increases the vulnerable time. As that camera sits,
writing data, someone who has already ignored a light that is close
to the first button or lever that needed to be pressed (the door
latch) has now moved their attention to a button that is farther
from the light (on the D200, it's even around the side of the
camera, while the light is on the back). Is it reasonable to assume
that the person who ignored the light in pressing the first button
is going to respect it when time comes to press the second?

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
Click to expand...
If you tell me that you have the schematics, I will take your word for it. The simplest explanation of what I saw is a micro switch that is pushed down by the release lever. Lift the release lever, the juice is cut. No different that what Canon does, except for the location of the micro switch.

Do you know? Once again I'll take your word for it and eat crow. Crow is good, espeically with wild mushrooms. Of course my dog likes his crow aged a bit - But bottom line, are you speculating or do you know?

Because in the test I just did the result was instantanious. push the release, the light went out.

Dave
 
Chato said:
Chato said:
Nikon doesn't give their cameras the ability to sense that a CF
door is open, and I wish they would.
Click to expand...
Why?
Click to expand...
I don't know. Maybe Nikon's market research said that there was something that customer's wanted even more than safer data, to spend the cost of a switch on.
Chato said:
And it's not a lot of money anyway, it's just a simple switch.
Nikon put that simple switch in the the release lever.
Click to expand...
No, they didn't. When you eject a card while it is writing, the data transfer comes to an abrupt, unplanned end...
Chato said:
Meaning you
get one last chance to save that buffer.
Click to expand...
Or a much longer window of opportunity to corrupt all the data on the card.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
If what you're saying is correct then it would be equally true of Canon. Canon has a micro switch that shuts the juice. Nikon has a micro switch that cuts the juice.

Once again, if you have the schematics I'll take your word for it. Otherwise you are just speculating.

Dave
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Chato said:
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Chato said:
When I open the door of my D2x, the green light stays on, the
camera continues to write to the buffer. It's a safty feature so
that I get a last warning. So that those oh so important shots are
not lost. If I push the card release, the camera stops writing so
that I don't hurt the card.
Click to expand...
But if you push the release while the card is writing, you can
corrupt the card and lose everything. That's a characteristic of
the FAT file system and compact flash cards. During a write, an
entire block (typically 64 k on the larger cards) is erased and
rewritten. If that block is the directory or the FAT (file
allocation table), you lose the ability for the file system to
"find" the data on the card, so all the pictures become
inaccessible.

So, you're technically correct in that ejecting during a write
won't "hurt the card", but you could lose all the data on the card.

So, the big question is, if someone would press the "door open"
button or lever while the CF light is on, is it reasonable to
assume that they would then press the "eject" button while the CF
light is on?
Click to expand...
He, heh, just before I made my post I checked on this. Pushing the
release button on the D2x immediatly stops the write mechanism.
Click to expand...
It "crashes" the write mechanism, at a random time in the write
cycle, and it could be at a time when you'd lose all the data.
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
So yes, opening the door implies the removal of the card. But
Nikon, at least on my D2x, was one step ahead. Pushing the release
(which is the only way to get the card out) breaks the juice to the
write head. :)

Since the juice is off - card will be just fine.
Click to expand...
But the data won't. If the data that is waiting to be written is
the directory or the FAT table, all the data, every file that has
already been written to the card, is gone.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
Click to expand...
 
Chato said:
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Chato said:
Yes, I would call the existing Canon set-up a fault.
Click to expand...
Canon doesn't. That "fault" costs them money, a door sensor that
has to be added to every camera.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Chato said:
If you tell me that you have the schematics, I will take your word
for it.
Click to expand...
I have the service manuals, the parts lists, and have torn down all four cameras mentioned.
Chato said:
The simplest explanation of what I saw is a micro switch
that is pushed down by the release lever. Lift the release lever,
the juice is cut. No different that what Canon does, except for the
location of the micro switch.

Do you know? Once again I'll take your word for it and eat crow.
Crow is good, espeically with wild mushrooms. Of course my dog
likes his crow aged a bit - But bottom line, are you speculating or
do you know?

Because in the test I just did the result was instantanious. push
the release, the light went out.
Click to expand...
That is true, because you interrupted the data transfer. As soon as it stopped, the camera noted that there was no compact flash card, and stopped trying to write data. The light goes out, the card capacity count goes to "empty".

As far as it only being a switch, it's a part that has weight, needs to be soldered (often at considerable expense, because switches often can't go through reflow soldering with the rest of the components, and require hand assembly), and needs to be accounted for in system reliability calculations (the infamous FMEA that we engineers hate so much: failure modes and effects analysis).

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Matt wrote:
(snip)
Matt105483 said:
No worries about the steel trap ;)
Click to expand...
My apololgies anyway, I just couldn't resist.
Matt105483 said:
I didnt say Phil's attention to this is irrational I just think
Canon understands this as a feature and will not abandon it just
because the Phil wants it gone ...
Click to expand...
Well Joe seems to think I am off the mark on the micro switch in the release button. If he is right, I will have to eat crow. If not, I will crow like a rooster. However, I did try it out, and I do believe I'm correct in this. If so, I much prefer a last chance to save the buffer.

I kid you not, when I'm out in the wilderness, and that Peregrine shoots in for the kill I get excited. This has actually occured, and the Nikon warning light has saved the contents of my card. But if I risk blowing the card, I can live with the camera shutting down.
Matt105483 said:
Matt
Click to expand...
 
Chato said:
If what you're saying is correct then it would be equally true of
Canon. Canon has a micro switch that shuts the juice. Nikon has a
micro switch that cuts the juice.
Click to expand...
Nikon has nothing of the sort...
Chato said:
Once again, if you have the schematics I'll take your word for it.
Otherwise you are just speculating.
Click to expand...
I have the parts lists, and I've torn down Nikon, Canon, and Fuji cameras. They use standard CF sockets, no microswitch in the eject mechanism.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
Chato said:
If what you're saying is correct then it would be equally true of
Canon. Canon has a micro switch that shuts the juice. Nikon has a
micro switch that cuts the juice.
Click to expand...
Nikon has nothing of the sort...
Joseph S Wisniewski said:
Once again, if you have the schematics I'll take your word for it.
Otherwise you are just speculating.
Click to expand...
I have the parts lists, and I've torn down Nikon, Canon, and Fuji
cameras. They use standard CF sockets, no microswitch in the eject
mechanism.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
Click to expand...
Well, fortunatly for my reputation my first post on this thread pointed out that I am an idiot. Thus there is a finite limit to how low my reputation can sink.

Such being the case I have to really apologise to Phototraveler and Matt. But NOT you.

For you, I'm reserving a special place in Islamic Hell for infidels who turn out rigth. Bad Joe, bad Joe. If you happen to see a 120 pound White Wolf in your neighborhood, he's actually my flunky coming to get you...:(

But them, by stupidity revealed for all to see, what the heck IS up with Phil and his calling this Canon safty feature a fault?

Dave
 
Chato said:
Chato said:
No worries about the steel trap ;)
Click to expand...
My apololgies anyway, I just couldn't resist.
Chato said:
I didnt say Phil's attention to this is irrational I just think
Canon understands this as a feature and will not abandon it just
because the Phil wants it gone ...
Click to expand...
Well Joe seems to think I am off the mark on the micro switch in
the release button. If he is right, I will have to eat crow. If
not, I will crow like a rooster. However, I did try it out, and I
do believe I'm correct in this. If so, I much prefer a last chance
to save the buffer.

I kid you not, when I'm out in the wilderness, and that Peregrine
shoots in for the kill I get excited. This has actually occured,
and the Nikon warning light has saved the contents of my card. But
if I risk blowing the card, I can live with the camera shutting
down.
Chato said:
Matt
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Thanks to that louse Joe, I have to eat crow. Do you have any good recipies?

Dave
 
Joseph S. Wisniewski said:
As far as it only being a switch, it's a part that has weight,
needs to be soldered (often at considerable expense, because
switches often can't go through reflow soldering with the rest of
the components, and require hand assembly), and needs to be
accounted for in system reliability calculations (the infamous FMEA
that we engineers hate so much: failure modes and effects analysis).
Click to expand...
All well and good. But I would like to give you a second chance to prove me a moron.

A micro switch is one of the simplest gadgets I know of. And when I say this I am referring to a Good micro switch. And while I'm not an engeenier, I am a licensed heating Installer, which is closely related to photography...:) It's also a big thing in NYC. Sort of like a master plumber. (Proof of course that plumbers as well as heating instlaller are idiots).

Why could this not be embeded in some sort off board? In this case the up position of the lever would make the switch, and pushing it down break it. Ok, so it would cost them a dollar for the switch. It would cost them nothing above that if it was embedded. Moreover, it's not as if it's the camera mirror. You activate the switch three or four times a day.

Are you really saying that you cannot visualise such a switch being intergrated into a board, so that this hand soldering couldn't be eliminated?

Dave
 
there is no write head

CF cards are not magnetic cards like a tape deck ...

if you push the release of course it stops writing. Not because the system does but because you are physically disconnecting the card, duh ...

And yes this can cause card corruption to the point where you may not even be able to format the card anymore

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
 
I knew that, it's just my quick way of saying the same thing....

If I wanted to be dumber than I've already proved myself to be, I could point out that hard drives fit into the slot...:)

Dave
PalmsWestPhoto said:
there is no write head

CF cards are not magnetic cards like a tape deck ...

if you push the release of course it stops writing. Not because the
system does but because you are physically disconnecting the card,
duh ...

And yes this can cause card corruption to the point where you may
not even be able to format the card anymore

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top