Time to let go?

Phil, your reviews are nice and all but the CF door bashing of Canon DSLR's is getting old...

Not everybody has the same opinion as you about this and i am sure Canon has done their homwork about what MOST people prefer.

To be quiet honest ... people who constantly open the CF door while the Camera is on maybe shoulnt be using it in the first place. Also those people probably prefer a few lost images in the buffer over the whole card corrupted...

Cheers

Matt

would you prefer that he didn't mention an obvious fault so that new buyers and those new to dpreview not know until they have a problem? If it's a fault or problem that hasn't been corrected, then yes, Phil should certainly "bash" the problem in each and every subsequent review.
--
charlesh

who says this is a problem? Its purely preference.. i am sure canon has spent some thought over this and decided its the best way it is ....

Sure its ok to mention it .. the way it is however looks more like an obsession ...

Matt

come on...from reading some past posts, it seems you have a bit of a problem with Phil, the site, and the reviews in general. Get the last word in, as we don't agree. I'm moving on.
--
charlesh

not text

Matt said:

Phil, your reviews are nice and all but the CF door bashing of
Canon DSLR's is getting old...
Not everybody has the same opinion as you about this and i am sure
Canon has done their homwork about what MOST people prefer.
To be quiet honest ... people who constantly open the CF door while
the Camera is on maybe shoulnt be using it in the first place.
Also those people probably prefer a few lost images in the buffer
over the whole card corrupted...

Click to expand...

But not limited to Canon reviews. It's almost like complaining the passengers aren't allow to open the doors when flying 747 was a major flaw. How silly.
--
Alan Chan
http://www.pbase.com/wlachan

Is that all you found to complain about?

I am quite sure that Boeing would have been sued out of business long ago if they insisted on not having a latch on the cabin doors of their 747s, long after people pointed out the problem to them.

wlachan said:

Matt said:

Phil, your reviews are nice and all but the CF door bashing of
Canon DSLR's is getting old...
Not everybody has the same opinion as you about this and i am sure
Canon has done their homwork about what MOST people prefer.
To be quiet honest ... people who constantly open the CF door while
the Camera is on maybe shoulnt be using it in the first place.
Also those people probably prefer a few lost images in the buffer
over the whole card corrupted...

Click to expand...

But not limited to Canon reviews. It's almost like complaining the
passengers aren't allow to open the doors when flying 747 was a
major flaw. How silly.
--
Alan Chan
http://www.pbase.com/wlachan

Click to expand...

The D1x, when you shut if off, would lose all the images in the bufffer. I always regarded this as a fault. I regarded it as a fault because from time to time, in the excitement of the moment I would forget. If you wish to call me mentally challenged for doing this, feel free.

Well, Nikon fixed this fault in subsequent cameras, and I for one am relieved.

Now it may be that there are many who have a mind like a steel trap - Matt for one. But we weak brained and stupid, don't. I'm glad that Phil mentions these little details which really dumb users like myself feel are important.

It may also be that those who shoot in a studio never encounter this problem. I for one often scramble to change cards, when shots are available, and wont be available for long.

There are many trivial things that Phill mentioned. As a representative of the stupid users, I appreciate what Phill calls, "An in depth review."

Bright people like Matt could probably get away with a paragraph or two, which states the salient points of the camera. But as I say, others want more, and oddly enough, appreciate more.

Dave

Matt said:

Phil, your reviews are nice and all but the CF door bashing of
Canon DSLR's is getting old...

Not everybody has the same opinion as you about this and i am sure
Canon has done their homwork about what MOST people prefer.

Click to expand...

Mentioning in the review that Canon still didn't improve that is hardly "bashing" and if in your opinion it is a good feature which you prefer, you're either clueless or you're just another Canon forum Cheerleader.

--
http://www.pbase.com/mikez

Unless you can find a reason for it being the way Canon has it to be a positive, then it is a flaw. There is no reason for it, therefore it's a flaw.

Where questionable things come in is things such as Phil listing the A100 manual pop up flash as being a negative. That's just odd. I see it as a positive (keeps user in control), but others could see it as a negative. So it comes down to preference.

if the option is the camera does nothing when you open the cf door then I would consider that a fault as the user without steel mind could yank the card and potentially have all images lost...

Matt

you seriously compare opening the CF door to turning off the camera ?

Then it simply shows you have no idea what you are talking about

if a camera stops writing just because you turn it off it is of course a fault that needs fixing

What canon does is a safety issue. When the CF card door opens chances are you will pull the card. If you do so while the camera is writing bad things can happen to the card.

Canon simply decided to choose the lesser evil

I dont care if phil mentions it in every review but the only people who complain about stuff like that are the ones who want to justofy buying a different brand by finding 'obvious flaws' in other brands.

It is 'ok' to use a different brand. No need for justification

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

if it was a flaw canon would have changed it

I would bet that this is implemented on purpose to minimize the chances of someone pulling a card while the camera writes to it.

It amazes me how nobody could think of such a simple explanation but then again ...

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

When I open the door of my D2x, the green light stays on, the camera continues to write to the buffer. It's a safty feature so that I get a last warning. So that those oh so important shots are not lost. If I push the card release, the camera stops writing so that I don't hurt the card.

Now if you re-read my post I already admit that I am stupid and dumb. No need for a highly intelligent person like yourself to become as foolish as me.

Dave

PalmsWestPhoto said:

you seriously compare opening the CF door to turning off the camera ?

Then it simply shows you have no idea what you are talking about

if a camera stops writing just because you turn it off it is of
course a fault that needs fixing

What canon does is a safety issue. When the CF card door opens
chances are you will pull the card. If you do so while the camera
is writing bad things can happen to the card.

Canon simply decided to choose the lesser evil

I dont care if phil mentions it in every review but the only people
who complain about stuff like that are the ones who want to justofy
buying a different brand by finding 'obvious flaws' in other brands.

It is 'ok' to use a different brand. No need for justification

--
Michael Salzlechner
http://www.PalmsWestPhoto.com

Click to expand...

Matt said:

if the option is the camera does nothing when you open the cf door
then I would consider that a fault as the user without steel mind
could yank the card and potentially have all images lost...

Matt

Click to expand...

The write light is next to the door. The camera ceases to write only when I push the release.

In other words as I reach to pull the card, it's easy to notice the bright green led indicator. To protect the actual card, the release lever shuts off the write mechanism.

Yes, I would call the existing Canon set-up a fault. I say that because the above scenario has occured with me. And sorry about the steel trap remark, but you have called Phil's calling attention to this irrational. I don't think so. The implementation on my machine has saved me a lot of shots. As buffers grow - And mine is up to I believe 19 NEF's, it becomes more and more important.

Dave

Chato said:

When I open the door of my D2x, the green light stays on, the
camera continues to write to the buffer. It's a safty feature so
that I get a last warning. So that those oh so important shots are
not lost. If I push the card release, the camera stops writing so
that I don't hurt the card.

Click to expand...

But if you push the release while the card is writing, you can corrupt the card and lose everything. That's a characteristic of the FAT file system and compact flash cards. During a write, an entire block (typically 64 k on the larger cards) is erased and rewritten. If that block is the directory or the FAT (file allocation table), you lose the ability for the file system to "find" the data on the card, so all the pictures become inaccessible.

So, you're technically correct in that ejecting during a write won't "hurt the card", but you could lose all the data on the card.

So, the big question is, if someone would press the "door open" button or lever while the CF light is on, is it reasonable to assume that they would then press the "eject" button while the CF light is on?

Canon apparently decided that people would do this, so they protect all the images on the card, at the expense of the images still in the buffer. They could have taken it one step further and closed the file system immediately upon door opening, making sure directory and FAT were secure, instead of waiting for the current write to complete.

Chato said:

Now if you re-read my post I already admit that I am stupid and
dumb. No need for a highly intelligent person like yourself to
become as foolish as me.

Click to expand...

The issue isn't whether you're bright or not, it's whether Phil is crusading against a "problem" that actually exists. My personal choice is to air on the conservative side: protect the large number of pictures on the card, at the expense of a smaller number in the buffer.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Srf_Cast said:

Matt said:

Phil, your reviews are nice and all but the CF door bashing of
Canon DSLR's is getting old...

Not everybody has the same opinion as you about this and i am sure
Canon has done their homwork about what MOST people prefer.

Click to expand...

Mentioning in the review that Canon still didn't improve that is
hardly "bashing" and if in your opinion it is a good feature which
you prefer, you're either clueless or you're just another Canon
forum Cheerleader.

Click to expand...

Well, I'm coming from a quarter century of Nikon shooting, including 5 DSRs (pair of D200 (one of which is deceased), D70 (now sold), D2X, and D200), and decades of embedded system designs, including two automotive computer systems with compact flash writers.

And I think Canon did the right thing here.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=20462591

As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, dumping the buffer as soon as possible after someone opens the door minimizes the risk that someone will eject a card during a directory or FAT table write. If the write is interrupted at such times, you lose every bit of data currently on the card.

It cost Canon extra money to implement this feature, they had to add a switch or optical sensor to see that someone had opened the door. People don't spend money unless market research shows that this is a valuable feature.

Nikon doesn't give their cameras the ability to sense that a CF door is open, and I wish they would.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Joseph S. Wisniewski said:

Chato said:

When I open the door of my D2x, the green light stays on, the
camera continues to write to the buffer. It's a safty feature so
that I get a last warning. So that those oh so important shots are
not lost. If I push the card release, the camera stops writing so
that I don't hurt the card.

Click to expand...

But if you push the release while the card is writing, you can
corrupt the card and lose everything. That's a characteristic of
the FAT file system and compact flash cards. During a write, an
entire block (typically 64 k on the larger cards) is erased and
rewritten. If that block is the directory or the FAT (file
allocation table), you lose the ability for the file system to
"find" the data on the card, so all the pictures become
inaccessible.

So, you're technically correct in that ejecting during a write
won't "hurt the card", but you could lose all the data on the card.

So, the big question is, if someone would press the "door open"
button or lever while the CF light is on, is it reasonable to
assume that they would then press the "eject" button while the CF
light is on?

Click to expand...

He, heh, just before I made my post I checked on this. Pushing the release button on the D2x immediatly stops the write mechanism.

So yes, opening the door implies the removal of the card. But Nikon, at least on my D2x, was one step ahead. Pushing the release (which is the only way to get the card out) breaks the juice to the write head.

Since the juice is off - card will be just fine.

Dave

Joseph S. Wisniewski wrote:
(snip)

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

Nikon doesn't give their cameras the ability to sense that a CF
door is open, and I wish they would.

Click to expand...

Why? And it's not a lot of money anyway, it's just a simple switch. Nikon put that simple switch in the the release lever. Meaning you get one last chance to save that buffer.

Dave

Joseph S Wisniewski said:

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

Click to expand...