Why the 707???

Considering some of the problems listed in this forum regarding the 707...

why not purchase the s85?

I realize that it is only 4 mp and design wise it is different than the 707, but I have read only of good things of this particular model while the 707 seems to be balanced between the good and bad.

Before it is mentioned that each camera is good for what it is made to do... or that the quality of the photographs is only as good as the person behind the camera ( this I already know )

Mine is only a question from those of you who have used both cameras or have the experience to provide a legetimate pros and cons of the 2 cameras

While I'm at it, any kind of flash for the s85... are they only propriety as well, or can you use a different model with the proper hardware., ie. Sunpak, etc.

Thanks in advance

James Maher said:

Considering some of the problems listed in this forum regarding the
707...

why not purchase the s85?

Click to expand...

Instead of trying to compare two different class of cameras ... I asked myself this question ...

Is there any feature that I need which only the 707 offers that the S85 doesnt?

For me the answer is yes ... No one else but only you can judge for yourself the answer to the same question ...

jc

Jimmy Chen said:

Jimmy Chen said:

Considering some of the problems listed in this forum regarding the
707...

why not purchase the s85?

Click to expand...

Instead of trying to compare two different class of cameras ... I
asked myself this question ...

Is there any feature that I need which only the 707 offers that the
S85 doesnt?

For me the answer is yes ... No one else but only you can judge for
yourself the answer to the same question ...

jc

Click to expand...

Was it the low-light focusing???
Your info would be a big help

Jim

my I ask what that feature was???,,,

The low-light focusing?

Again your info would be a big help to me!

This is an interesting question. I'm an S85 owner. I've used a 707 a little on a couple of visits to Best Buy, but I don't own one. I have been following the 707 issues very closely, however, because I was very excited about the camera when it was announced.

It's my opinion that the S85 has most of the same problems as the 707: LEVBFS, flash problems in auto, dark display with flash and anything but auto, as well as color oversaturation and clipping.

To add to this, I would say that the S85 probably has more trouble focusing than the 707.

From my perspective, the huge disappointment with the 707 is that it hasn't fixed the incredibly obvious problems with the S85.

One thing I'll say in favor of the S85 is that it hasn't been plagued with the reliability problems of the 707. There haven't been any recalls yet and I don't know of any issues such as the uneven vignetting, which seems to affect a surprising number of 707s (Yes, some vignetting is normal for this camera, but it should be the same in all corners; many users have had some corners very dark and others comparitively much lighter.)

--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/

James Maher said:

my I ask what that feature was???,,,

Click to expand...

For me the subject that I am interested in taking are reef aquarium tanks, or corals ...

So I have a few issues I need to deal with ...

1. Lighting - saltwater has the ability to filter out a huge amount of light intensity, so yes, the low light focus is a factor. It isnt uncommon for us to use 400w MH lights inches above the water surface. By the time the light reaches 24" in depth, the intensity is less then 30% of the original 400w.

2. Direction of shots - some livestock will only show their color properly at a given angle, ie: directly from top - the swival body is a must when you need to aim from the top of a 4 ft tank from above.

3. Very small detail - can be in mm ... so the additional zoom and macro helps

These two shots here should give you an idea ... the left coral is around 3" in size, and the right coral is about 5" in size. http://sps.reefkeepers.org/bob/

Some additional items I like to try is the nightshot/nightframe abilities ... A lot of marine life is active at the dark, or only exposes parts of their body at night, so the nightshot/nightframe is going to help a lot here.

The Hologram AF may be something interesting. Currently I have no clue on how this is going to pan out for subjects in water. But I will have to wait and see.

So basically, these are the reasons why I am looking at the F707 over other cameras ... Your requirement may be very different, so you may not even care for these features.

jc

I got the 707 mainly because of the lens. This is a great lens and fast. I dont think there is another one like it. Also would never go less than a 5x zoom. I also like the erconomics of the camera fits me perfect. I went to a few stores and played with different cameras and like the feel of the 707 the best. I think this is a very important part. You must like the look and feel of your camera else it wont be long before you start looking again. --Steven

The S85 and 707 are very different cameras. I agree with you that the CCD size difference isn't the central issue.

The S85 is a small camera with an optical tunnel viewfinder and a fixed rear LCD display. The small telescoping lens results in a compact package, although this results in slow startup times and a limited range of focal lengths. I would also check out the Canon G2, as it is similar in many ways.

The 707 is a much larger camera. It uses an electronic viewfinder to present a "through the lens" preview image for accurate framing, depth of field preview, and for viewing the exposure values while framing the shot, just like an SLR. The electronic viewfinder has it's shortcomings, including lower resolution than an optical viewfinder and poor performance in low light. The latter problem is exacerbated by the inability to turn off depth of field preview. The lens is probably the best available on a digital camera in this price range. It has a nice focal length range and is very fast at all focal lengths. Macro performance is also fairly good near the wide angle end. There really are no cameras like the 707, but the E-20 is probably the closest thing. It uses an optical TTL viewfinder with a beam splitter. The result is closer to a traditional SLR. The 707 also has lots of features such as IR, laser focus assist. For me, these aren't central to the character of the camera.

If you want a camera that you can easily carry around everywhere, that you can hand to someone to take a shot for you, then something like the S85 or G2 might be right for you. If you want a camera that feels more like an SLR, where it's easy to choose the exposure values for each shot, and where you see exactly what you're getting for every shot you take, consider the 707 or E-20. If at all possible, find a shop where you can try out both the S80 and the 707. You'll see first hand just how different these two cameras are.--Peter Epstein

Ron Parr said:

This is an interesting question.

Click to expand...

Yes, I thought so, too. I started to snap off an initial response. And then I decided to hang back for a bit and think about it.

I kept coming down to asking the question, "Why NOT buy it, especially if you don't already have the S85." Price might be one reason, particularly if you don't need the pixel power or the zoom or the ability to focus in absolute darkness, among other reasons.

Member said:

It's my opinion that the S85 has most of the same problems as the
707: LEVBFS, flash problems in auto, dark display with flash and
anything but auto, as well as color oversaturation and clipping.

Click to expand...

Interesting, isn't it?

Member said:

To add to this, I would say that the S85 probably has more trouble
focusing than the 707.

Click to expand...

Is it that it has more trouble locking on, do you think? Or is it that it's just a bit slower?

Member said:

From my perspective, the huge disappointment with the 707 is that
it hasn't fixed the incredibly obvious problems with the S85.

Click to expand...

Yep. That's what you get in the DA with its inherited legacy firmware from the S-series {snicker, snicker...}

Member said:

One thing I'll say in favor of the S85 is that it hasn't been
plagued with the reliability problems of the 707. There haven't
been any recalls yet and I don't know of any issues such as the
uneven vignetting, which seems to affect a surprising number of 707s

Click to expand...

I've got my theories about that, too. Related to the number of users, extremely high and almost unrealistic expectations (we always do it to ourselves with each really big release such as the DA), and the nearly universal unification of intent to get this camera to work better. As you mentioned, the S85 has nearly all of the same problems, but it has not been scrutinized in anything like the manner of the F707. You are one of the few who has really done that. And for good or for bad, there weren't as many "pros" interested in using the S85; the F707 actually has convinced a number of "pros" to at least try it out in that environment. That says a lot about what we expect of the DA.

As Spock would say, I find this to be... "fascinating".-- Ulysses

A wild horse is always a good horse James. When people are crazy about something, they pay more attention about it!

Antoine

James Maher said:

Considering some of the problems listed in this forum regarding the
707...

why not purchase the s85?

I realize that it is only 4 mp and design wise it is different than
the 707, but I have read only of good things of this particular
model while the 707 seems to be balanced between the good and bad.

Before it is mentioned that each camera is good for what it is made
to do... or that the quality of the photographs is only as good as
the person behind the camera ( this I already know )

Mine is only a question from those of you who have used both
cameras or have the experience to provide a legetimate pros and
cons of the 2 cameras

While I'm at it, any kind of flash for the s85... are they only
propriety as well, or can you use a different model with the proper
hardware., ie. Sunpak, etc.

Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

--Antoine

I see my F707 like Homer Simpson sees himself in a mirror:



What's not to like ;-) hahaha
--ShayMy F707 Gallery: http://f707.shay.ws

I don´t know about under water photography, i can only say that the camera works very good with no problem whatsoever...

esp. the low light focus is a joy to work with it, only minor setback is the dark lcd under low light condition.

you will be very pleased with the 707

alfred

James Maher said:

Considering some of the problems listed in this forum regarding the
707...

why not purchase the s85?

I realize that it is only 4 mp and design wise it is different than
the 707, but I have read only of good things of this particular
model while the 707 seems to be balanced between the good and bad.

Before it is mentioned that each camera is good for what it is made
to do... or that the quality of the photographs is only as good as
the person behind the camera ( this I already know )

Mine is only a question from those of you who have used both
cameras or have the experience to provide a legetimate pros and
cons of the 2 cameras

While I'm at it, any kind of flash for the s85... are they only
propriety as well, or can you use a different model with the proper
hardware., ie. Sunpak, etc.

Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

Ulysses said:

Member said:

To add to this, I would say that the S85 probably has more trouble
focusing than the 707.

Click to expand...

Is it that it has more trouble locking on, do you think? Or is it
that it's just a bit slower?

Click to expand...

Good question. I'd need to use it for a while to know for sure. It's (the 707) certainly faster and inspires more confidence, but it may not be any more accurate.

--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/

Aside from BFS, which doesn't exist in current DSC-707. I don't really see how the DSC-85 addresses any of the 707 limitations.

Sony, like Canon and Nikon seem to build all of any particular generation of cameras on the same basic software platform with only minor tweaks (i.e. Burst 2 mode in the DSC-5 vs Burst 3 in the 85 and 707).

I had the same experience with my DSC-P1 (which I still own) whose GUI and UI feel is identical to the 505 and other contemporary models.

Aside from BFS, my major complaints with my 707 are overall flash limitations and the inability to toggle LCD exposure preview (which is primarily an issue when using flash - see the Minolta D7 for how this could have been done). I also don't appreciate limitations in using the various IR modes.

Others have a problem with color fidelity and blooming although I think people have unrealistic expectations. I shoot 35mm and Medium Format as well and most photographers pick a film to shoot based on their overall preferences for saturation and sharpness choose your digitcal camera the same way. Some don't like EVF's, and I can understand that but the current breed of optical viewfinder is pretty pathetic in digital cameras. You need to move to a SLR to do better.

As far as I know all of these problems exist on the entire current range of Sony digital cameras, and so probably represent design decisions (maybe inadvertent in the case of LEVBFS) rather than flaws.

-bill

James Maher said:

Considering some of the problems listed in this forum regarding the
707...

why not purchase the s85?

I realize that it is only 4 mp and design wise it is different than
the 707, but I have read only of good things of this particular
model while the 707 seems to be balanced between the good and bad.

Before it is mentioned that each camera is good for what it is made
to do... or that the quality of the photographs is only as good as
the person behind the camera ( this I already know )

Mine is only a question from those of you who have used both
cameras or have the experience to provide a legetimate pros and
cons of the 2 cameras

While I'm at it, any kind of flash for the s85... are they only
propriety as well, or can you use a different model with the proper
hardware., ie. Sunpak, etc.

Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

James,

The 707 has all the attention now and you are reading every little thing that everyone can find that they don't like about it.

If you are talking LEVBFS, the S85 and S75 has it.

If you are looking at the Sony Cybershots, the only reasons not to go with the 707 is if it is too big or too expensive or you think the lens vignetting or chromatic abberations are too pronouned.

Otherwise it is as good or better in every other respect

James Maher said:

Considering some of the problems listed in this forum regarding the
707...

why not purchase the s85?

I realize that it is only 4 mp and design wise it is different than
the 707, but I have read only of good things of this particular
model while the 707 seems to be balanced between the good and bad.

Before it is mentioned that each camera is good for what it is made
to do... or that the quality of the photographs is only as good as
the person behind the camera ( this I already know )

Mine is only a question from those of you who have used both
cameras or have the experience to provide a legetimate pros and
cons of the 2 cameras

While I'm at it, any kind of flash for the s85... are they only
propriety as well, or can you use a different model with the proper
hardware., ie. Sunpak, etc.

Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

Member said:

Member said:

From my perspective, the huge disappointment with the 707 is that
it hasn't fixed the incredibly obvious problems with the S85.

Click to expand...

Yep. That's what you get in the DA with its inherited legacy
firmware from the S-series {snicker, snicker...}

Member said:

One thing I'll say in favor of the S85 is that it hasn't been
plagued with the reliability problems of the 707. There haven't
been any recalls yet and I don't know of any issues such as the
uneven vignetting, which seems to affect a surprising number of 707s

Click to expand...

I've got my theories about that, too. Related to the number of
users, extremely high and almost unrealistic expectations (we
always do it to ourselves with each really big release such as the
DA), and the nearly universal unification of intent to get this
camera to work better. As you mentioned, the S85 has nearly all of
the same problems, but it has not been scrutinized in anything like
the manner of the F707. You are one of the few who has really done
that. And for good or for bad, there weren't as many "pros"
interested in using the S85; the F707 actually has convinced a
number of "pros" to at least try it out in that environment. That
says a lot about what we expect of the DA.

As Spock would say, I find this to be... "fascinating".
--

Ulysses

Click to expand...

I don't know of any mass produced products which are "perfect" off the line. I have read reports that new computers have an initial failure rate up to 30 percent with either hardware or software. The DA is a computer with a lense and image capture system. Ulysses is correct, we expect too much!!!

--Capt. Vern

Ulysses said:

Ron Parr said:

This is an interesting question.

Click to expand...

Yes, I thought so, too. I started to snap off an initial response.
And then I decided to hang back for a bit and think about it.

I kept coming down to asking the question, "Why NOT buy it,
especially if you don't already have the S85." Price might be one
reason, particularly if you don't need the pixel power or the zoom
or the ability to focus in absolute darkness, among other reasons.

Member said:

It's my opinion that the S85 has most of the same problems as the
707: LEVBFS, flash problems in auto, dark display with flash and
anything but auto, as well as color oversaturation and clipping.

Click to expand...

Interesting, isn't it?

Member said:

To add to this, I would say that the S85 probably has more trouble
focusing than the 707.

Click to expand...

Is it that it has more trouble locking on, do you think? Or is it
that it's just a bit slower?

Member said:

From my perspective, the huge disappointment with the 707 is that
it hasn't fixed the incredibly obvious problems with the S85.

Click to expand...

Yep. That's what you get in the DA with its inherited legacy
firmware from the S-series {snicker, snicker...}

Click to expand...

You aren't actually implying that prior to the S75, the 505V had "F" firmware and the S70 has "S" firmware, are you?

Snicker, snicker? Oh wait, S-series..... Snicker-series?

Member said:

Member said:

One thing I'll say in favor of the S85 is that it hasn't been
plagued with the reliability problems of the 707. There haven't
been any recalls yet and I don't know of any issues such as the
uneven vignetting, which seems to affect a surprising number of 707s

Click to expand...

I've got my theories about that, too. Related to the number of
users, extremely high and almost unrealistic expectations (we
always do it to ourselves with each really big release such as the
DA), and the nearly universal unification of intent to get this
camera to work better. As you mentioned, the S85 has nearly all of
the same problems, but it has not been scrutinized in anything like
the manner of the F707. You are one of the few who has really done
that. And for good or for bad, there weren't as many "pros"
interested in using the S85; the F707 actually has convinced a
number of "pros" to at least try it out in that environment. That
says a lot about what we expect of the DA.

As Spock would say, I find this to be... "fascinating".
--

Ulysses

Click to expand...