Future of Pentax?

In researching which camera to buy (mainly Nikon or Pentax) I see a common theme re. Pentax and that is the future, many use the argument that Pentax is small and has very limited support, be it retailler or company for their product. That their upgrade path is void (though for the amateur such as myself I wonder how much this truly matters), and that the future of the company is very unclear whereas the big two (Nikon and Cannon) are destined to be around...

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this subject, do the K100 and K10d serve as stepping stones for the company to make a household name for themselves, do you see the collaboation with Samsung as a good thing? and what do you think the future holds for Pentax?

On a side I found it interesting that of the two random people I spoke with about cameras both had said they still have old Pentax cameras from the 80s which they would love to get a DSLR version to use their old lenses...so I am guessing Pentax used to be quite a bit better known than they are now...

Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks

I may have to take issue with Tom Hogan about Pentax's future now that they have a reciprocal agreement with Samsung for electronics and optics, plus a number of great models and lenses in the lineup.

Canon are pretty safe - they control the market and they are big enough and sell enough volume to rapidly amortise the major investment in sensor design and fabrication.

Sony also have a real chance. They have access to same great technology and the resources to be a stayer in the market. Plus they virtually control the APS CCD market. However, if they lose all the Monilta engineers they acquired, or fail to deliver a seriously good follow up to the Alpha 100, it could take longer than they thing. As a pro still camera brand they have no recognition at all (not true of Pentax).

Nikon are still on their own. They can afford to do their own fab for APS chips in the D2X and they have a lot of fab expertise but thats about it. They sell enough volume to get preferential component prices but thats about it. Although they do have room to cut margins, if the D80 market share is severly eaten away by Canon, Pentax and Sony they could be in trouble! It is arguable as to whether they can continue to act independently using third party components, since Sony will no longer be giving them preferential deliveries of new chips.

Fuji are entirely dependent on Nikon bodies and will never be a serious player. I am surprised they and Nikon have not done a sensor deal, unless Nikon in unwilling to rely on such a small niche sensor manufacturer for the volumes they need.

Olympus have a deal with Panasonic and the two are pretty much out on their own. 4/3 has not been a huge success - although the principles are viable, the lenses have ended up being hugely expensive and no smaller than their 35mm equivalents.

And finally, Pentax and Samsung. Its worth noting that Pentax share in Japan is much larger than internationally, so they do have a user base. Plus, they have a tie up with Samsung (which I believe is merely a quid pro quo exchange of components and licensing) that gives them access to the same quality electronics previously only available to Nikon and Canon. Sales of Samsung will help the Pentax bottom line etc etc. Pentax also intend to release a digi 645 and a higher end SLR. Samsung are also rumoured to be a year away from a CMOS sensor to compete with Canon, though probably APS. Pentax may well get first dibs on such a sensor.

So, I actually think Pentax are in good shape potentially. Sales of K100D have been excellent and strong sales of the K10D and DA* lenses will double or trebble their worldwide revenues. Will they rival Canon? Not in the short term, but in the next 5 or 10 years, anything can happen.

Pentax are looking strong, Nikon seem to be in a holding pattern, Canon did very little this year and Sony, Fuji, Sigma and Oly underdelivered at PMA. My money is on Pentax right now.

mjancsics said:

In researching which camera to buy (mainly Nikon or Pentax) I see a
common theme re. Pentax and that is the future, many use the
argument that Pentax is small and has very limited support, be it
retailler or company for their product. That their upgrade path is
void (though for the amateur such as myself I wonder how much this
truly matters), and that the future of the company is very unclear
whereas the big two (Nikon and Cannon) are destined to be around...

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this subject, do
the K100 and K10d serve as stepping stones for the company to make
a household name for themselves, do you see the collaboation with
Samsung as a good thing? and what do you think the future holds for
Pentax?

On a side I found it interesting that of the two random people I
spoke with about cameras both had said they still have old Pentax
cameras from the 80s which they would love to get a DSLR version to
use their old lenses...so I am guessing Pentax used to be quite a
bit better known than they are now...

Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks

Click to expand...

--
Steve
Measurebating makes you short sighted.
http://www.pbase.com/steve_jacob

You need to take one other item into consideration too. The mass consumer market of point-and-shoots. Yeah, again, Canon generally lives at the top of this heap again, but Pentax isn't invisible in that market. As long as Pentax as a whole remains profitable, they'll be around.

Considering the the last company to depart, Konica/Minolta, did they EVER have much of a point-and-shoot Digital Offering? There's nothing striking that comes to my mind.

------------
R. Little (aka Getmoresoon)

Why everyone wants for pentax to become canon? If I wanted canon I would buy canon. The only thing that matters is that pentax continues to make good cameras that make good pictures. How does it matter if they are not household name?

Sony is a household name but they make $hity products the last few years and it would be a shame if pentax becomes like them.

I've been a Nikon/Canon user for more than 20 years now, and a close friend of mine have been using Pentax cameras from that time and never switched makes. We always keep chatting about our favorite theme, photography, and he have been always a bit concerned about Pentax future in the long run. Thing is, he have been corcerned for no reason, because Pentax have been around here for quite some time and doesn't seem to be getting weaker, specially lately.

Enough reason, along with the K10D announcement, to make me change to Pentax soon. My K10D will be here hopefully by christmas.

--
visit



at http://www.ocando.net or http://mocando.myftp.org
Martin Ocando

in recent years pentax have shown the signs of a company with inadequate resources for product development - great ideas, with flawed execution. This is more true on the compact front than with dslrs - although in fact the launch of the original D was botched, an absurd price being coupled with ill-chosen default jpg settings and a flawed kit lens, giving reviewers a field day.

If the proven qualities of the K100D are a guide, together with the unproven appeal of the K0D, Pentax are entering a new era - and if that's the outcome of Samsung support so be it. Good.

If they really want to be a player, Pentax need to get their compacts sorted out, as I believe in the volume market, brand loyalty is a factor just as it is with DSLRs, and anyone who has had a good experience with a Pentax P&S is likely to turn to a Pentax DSLR as a first stop in an upgrade process. Pentax have produced too many P&S cameras which are are 'OK but...'. If they reallly got the A20 sorted with decent speed of operation and an optical viewfinder, they would lay the foundations of a new generation of potential Pentax DSLR buyers, with less reliance on poaching from other brands.

Then also they have to get their lens production up, so that the Pentax system is more routinely stocked around the world, rather than treated as something ordered specially by eccentrics.

I believe Pentax is at a crossroads. Personally I have backed their future with several hundred dollars' (actually thousands when you add it all up) worth of my hard-earned cash. They are showing a lot of potential: I hope they fulfil it and justify all our hopes.

tim
http://www.pbase.com/timotheus

K100D is a huge success! I was just ina store the other day and asked what they had in used equipment for Pentax and they said they don't have much. In discussion it came to light that the main reason for this was market share. Then I mentioned that I jsut got a Pentax recently and really liked it and was thinking about ways to expand my arsenal. He asked which one and I said the K100D. His eyes immediately lit up and said this was a great camera - this in spite of the fact that he didn't have a sale for me! He mentioned a few of it's high points, all of which I was already aware of. This surprised me and made me realize that those in the know are well aware of the Pentax name and it's new strengths. I think that with the right marketing and a more "professional" push (will be accomplished with the 645D and potential K1D) they have a great future in getting a MUCH larger market share. I also think Pentax's apparent commitment to their user base is also a huge thing to consider. Some of the C*n*n users are getting tired of C*n*n's apparent disregard for them.

Financially I think that the agreement with Samsung is a huge bonus. Marketing and "brand recognition" wise I think it was a mistake. Business is all about give and take I guess.

--



http://www.pbase.com/jcphotos

I agree that I don't want Pentax to become another Canon ... however ... I do want Pentax to be strong enough to take product developement to the level it should be taken and not just what they beleive they can afford.

I also agree that they are at a crossroads and if the 10D is released with little to no firmware issues, the image quality at least meets expectations and the new DA* lenses are competative in quality, their evolution into a strong player will continue.

cheers ....

I'm just reading these things, but I think Samsung is gaining some brand recognition. It's been very hard for them to come up with already so many other great electronics companies around. This might be the beginning of something great for Samsung, but Pentax has been around forever, so I can only see this as a smart move from Pentax to rekindle their own strength.

By the way I have a new Samsung LCD monitor which is amazing. Still, it was the second version that I tried, as the first one had a nasty hot pixel. You pay what you get for.
--
Lipo

The principal independent camera shop in Madison WI has been selling the K100D pretty steadily, almost every time I walk in there someone's buying a K100D or a closeout *istDL or whatever it is. Usually all they have for glass are the kit 18-55, 50-200, and 16-45 (though I think I did see the 12-24 there) but if things pick up I bet we see more show up. The salespeople are anxiously awaiting the K10D, too, and have high regard for the K100D and even though they themselves are Canon and Nikon shooters are quick to say that you can't do any better than Pentax SMC glass, so hopefully Pentax is on an upward trend. Now if they can get their marketing chops up to drive more demand, maybe we'll see the gaps in their lens and accesory lines fill in more quickly. Chicken and egg sort of thing. Fingers crossed, gentlemen...

Todd P, 95% set on a K100D (still scraping fundage...)

The P&S market is not that profitable but the DSLR is an upgrade option for P&S users. If C can get a large chunk of P&S buyers, they will look to C for the DSLR.

Th upgrade path is more of a perception thing. If you buy a C APS model, you will not be able to easily move to FF unless you buy FF compatible lenses. The fact there is a higher model or 2 may make you feel better about the brand but it does nothing to improve the quality of what you bought.

panauser said:

Why everyone wants for pentax to become canon? If I wanted canon I
would buy canon. The only thing that matters is that pentax
continues to make good cameras that make good pictures. How does it
matter if they are not household name?

Click to expand...

Excellent point! Market share has nothing to do with quality of their products.

If it does, then Porsche or Ferrari would be doing everything to become Toyota or Ford, Wharfedale or Harman-Kardon would be pushing hard to become Sony or Panasonic. But they don't, we all know why, we hope they will never do it, and I think Pentax should stay on that path: make it right and you'll always have customers. Market share? Who cares!

-= Ivan =-

...both small (APS) and medium format SLRs. We can't stress enough the fact.

jc_photos said:

aware of the Pentax name and it's new strengths. I think that with
the right marketing and a more "professional" push (will be
accomplished with the 645D and potential K1D) they have a great
future in getting a MUCH larger market share.

Click to expand...

*isteve said:

I may have to take issue with Tom Hogan about Pentax's future now
that they have a reciprocal agreement with Samsung for electronics
and optics, plus a number of great models and lenses in the lineup.
Canon are pretty safe - they control the market and they are big
enough and sell enough volume to rapidly amortise the major
investment in sensor design and fabrication.
Sony also have a real chance. They have access to same great
technology and the resources to be a stayer in the market. Plus
they virtually control the APS CCD market. However, if they lose
all the Monilta engineers they acquired, or fail to deliver a
seriously good follow up to the Alpha 100, it could take longer
than they thing. As a pro still camera brand they have no
recognition at all (not true of Pentax).
Nikon are still on their own. They can afford to do their own fab
for APS chips in the D2X and they have a lot of fab expertise but
thats about it. They sell enough volume to get preferential
component prices but thats about it. Although they do have room to
cut margins, if the D80 market share is severly eaten away by
Canon, Pentax and Sony they could be in trouble! It is arguable as
to whether they can continue to act independently using third party
components, since Sony will no longer be giving them preferential
deliveries of new chips.

Click to expand...

Sony and Nikon have joint projects, Nikon lets them use equipment they own patents on to produce sensors, and sony makes large amounts of money selling sensors to Nikon among others. Sony will not withold or change sensor sales to Nikon.

*isteve said:

Fuji are entirely dependent on Nikon bodies and will never be a
serious player. I am surprised they and Nikon have not done a
sensor deal, unless Nikon in unwilling to rely on such a small
niche sensor manufacturer for the volumes they need.
Olympus have a deal with Panasonic and the two are pretty much out
on their own. 4/3 has not been a huge success - although the
principles are viable, the lenses have ended up being hugely
expensive and no smaller than their 35mm equivalents.
And finally, Pentax and Samsung. Its worth noting that Pentax share
in Japan is much larger than internationally, so they do have a
user base. Plus, they have a tie up with Samsung (which I believe
is merely a quid pro quo exchange of components and licensing) that
gives them access to the same quality electronics previously only
available to Nikon and Canon. Sales of Samsung will help the Pentax
bottom line etc etc. Pentax also intend to release a digi 645 and a
higher end SLR. Samsung are also rumoured to be a year away from a
CMOS sensor to compete with Canon, though probably APS. Pentax may
well get first dibs on such a sensor.
So, I actually think Pentax are in good shape potentially. Sales of
K100D have been excellent and strong sales of the K10D and DA*
lenses will double or trebble their worldwide revenues. Will they
rival Canon? Not in the short term, but in the next 5 or 10 years,
anything can happen.
Pentax are looking strong, Nikon seem to be in a holding pattern,

Click to expand...

Nikon is in no holding pattern, their sales of DSLR's have been extremely strong in the last two years, even whittling into canons large sales lead. From the D70, D50, D200, sales have been very good, at one point Nikon was selling 100,000 D70 a month, undoubtably more D50. The D80 will also be a great seller.

*isteve said:

Canon did very little this year and Sony, Fuji, Sigma and Oly
underdelivered at PMA. My money is on Pentax right now.

Click to expand...

Canon delivered a great small inexpensive D400 that will outsell Sony, oly, samsung and pentax combined. Easily.

Sony, Pentax, Olympus and now Samsung are fighting over 25% of the pie at this point, with the rest going to CaNikon. Sony and samsumg must have a dollar advantage. It was a great move by pentax to hook up with samsung, cause personaly, I dont think there is enough market for ALL the players to survive in the long run. I think pentax with out samsung is gone, long term oly too.

*isteve said:

mjancsics said:

In researching which camera to buy (mainly Nikon or Pentax) I see a
common theme re. Pentax and that is the future, many use the
argument that Pentax is small and has very limited support, be it
retailler or company for their product. That their upgrade path is
void (though for the amateur such as myself I wonder how much this
truly matters), and that the future of the company is very unclear
whereas the big two (Nikon and Cannon) are destined to be around...

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this subject, do
the K100 and K10d serve as stepping stones for the company to make
a household name for themselves, do you see the collaboation with
Samsung as a good thing? and what do you think the future holds for
Pentax?

On a side I found it interesting that of the two random people I
spoke with about cameras both had said they still have old Pentax
cameras from the 80s which they would love to get a DSLR version to
use their old lenses...so I am guessing Pentax used to be quite a
bit better known than they are now...

Any thoughts would be appreciated, thanks

Click to expand...

--
Steve
Measurebating makes you short sighted.
http://www.pbase.com/steve_jacob

Click to expand...

In the 60's Pentax had plenty of panache and a big share of the SLR market, but Nikon and Canon passed them in the 70's by selling to pros, then largely news and documentary photographers. Pentax shook out as a much-loved amateur's camera, offering good quality and basic SLR's (like the Spotmatic and K1000) at a good price. Sometimes the company's marketing and strategy tend to be a little, well, eccentric. But their conservative approach and occasionally stellar products (example: the 85/1.4) have given them a small but loyal following. To echo another post, there's nothing wrong with niche marketing -- I drive a Miata and don't really want a roomier, quieter, more prestigious Lexus. I use a Mac Mini and don't want a Dell super-server.

Pros tend to buy into systems, and Pentax can't offer anything like the chest-thumping systems offered by Nikon or Canon, with tilt-shift lenses or zooms suitable for use on a battlefield in the mud, and enough accessories to fill a steamer trunk, and flagship SLR's armored like the flagship of a fleet and weighing almost as much. Pros need those things; most of us don't. Yet some modern Pentax lenses, like the "Limited" series, can give you results that match, or overmatch, their Nikon/Canon counterparts, though they may not focus as fast or as silently, or have such a big maximum aperture, or survive being used as a club.

In that sense Pentax reminds me of my beloved but obsolete Contax G2, which I sold when I moved to digital. The Contax/Zeiss lenses were superb, but there weren't many of them and they weren't especially fast, didn't focus quickly or silently, and you can bet they weren't waterproof or built to be dropped in a rice paddy. Yet the images were wonderful, with a look I loved, a look I couldn't get, somehow, with my Contax/Zeiss SLR kit.

My main kit now is Canon EOS, including one of their splendid "L" zooms -- the equipment is fast, solid, quiet, dependable, and the images are reliably slick and scrumptious. Yet I've been missing something, especially in black and white, that I got quite easily from the G2. To recapture it, or to get an equivalent look and feel, I've picked up a trio of late-model Pentax lenses and a couple of their DSLR's, and will buy the 10D when it's out. I'm in the niche they're selling to, or maybe I should say they carved out a niche that fits a need I have. If they're sensible I think they'll stay there and exploit that market, rather than trying to swim with the sharks and run with the elephants. Five percent of a big overall market is not to be despised -- ask the guys who sell Miatas or the Apple Macintosh, or Leicas for that matter. There's a reason their customers are loyal.