Dissatisfied wedding client. Opinions please...

It was a sideline for me. I'm not claiming to be a great pro. Just did the best I could and made some spare change. From people who often were too poor to hire a big studio. I'm not attacking you just offering what I think is good advice. I always presented them with a list of standard pictures and asked them to mark it up prior to wedding day. Oh many times they wanted mostly candids, but I took all the formals anyway. Because when it came time to order they always prefered the formal posed shots and that means money, and happier customers. I never had to advertise, never had an unhappy client except the ones I had to turn down for lack of time. Even if the bride and groom were to prefer the candids you've still got to sell to other family members. Not everyone will prefer candids. I also prescreened for bad shots. It was all film and cameras were not so automatic when I did it and I looked for bad exposures, and bad images and removed them. Just my opinon hope it is helpful. Your pictures look fine but I see both sides and really don't think she's completely wrong.

I have to agree. There are alot of shots that are not worthy of being in an album. As a result, no matter what the artistic merit of the photos is (like the one's of the camcorder screen), they should be weeded out of the PROOFS....
--
--The artist formerly known as The Krakken

I have three rules when shooting weddings:

1) Don't p*ss off the bride
2) Don't p*ss off the bride
3) Don't p*ss off the mother

Virtually everything than can be said, has been said. I for one take a bit of extra care with photos of the B&G as well as the Mother of the Bride. I touch up any blemishes on the Bride and Groom and spend extra time doing a photoshop facelift on the Bride's mom.

I realize that this takes extra time, especially if you're busy with other shoots, but I find it pays off in the end. Knock off 10 to 15 years from the BOM (OK, in her case 25) and she will love the photos. One of the posters suggested that she saw that picture of her and since it was so horrid (not the composition, the subject) that everything else was bad as well. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had the BOM look at her picture and marvel at how good they look. I’ve even been known to slim the waist a bit. Always make the mother happy.

Sorry, I have to agree.

When I look at my wedding album, the photos really looked professional, attention to posing, lighting, background, composition etc... and he was not an expensive photographer. It was film, of the 40 shots shown to us, about 30 were good enough to order, not bad.

Wedding PJ is an exciting area, but sometimes I just see P&S posing as PJ. It must be a challenge for the pro, because there is a special something that makes a pro's pj photo stand out from a guests p&s.

The photos shown would have been good if taken by one of the guests. Expected more from the pro.

Best Regards

Welcome to the world of dealing with the public. There will always be difficult to please customers that will give your self esteem a beating. The big question is how fast can you settle this issue and move on to interact with your more satisfied customers

All you can do for this client is to do what you can to appease her either by helping her put together a more traditional looking album and\or refunding what monies the two of you can agree on.

But try not to beat yourself up any more than the client is beating on you. Learn from the experience and move on to your satisfied customers. Time and satisfied customers will heal wounds caused by traumatic experiences such as this

While I do not think that this problem is basically your fault, there are some measures that can be taken to diminish the probability of this happen in the future.

1) I have a consultation two weeks before the wedding during which the bride and parents put into writing what style of coverage they prefer and well as who they want photographed, etc.; from your post, I assume that you do this also

if anyone specifies "mostly traditional," the emphasis on traditional photos goes way up; I also make the responsibility of the assistant to find the people specified and make sure the photos happen before we leave the event

Before I leave the event, I also ask the bride and groom and all sets of principals if there are any further images that they would like to have before I leave

2) During that pre wedding day consultation, I again show the sample albums and remind them what the images I routinely do look like so I get that final affirmation that what I do is truly what they want

If I can't do this in person, I will do it by phone and Internet

--
Vance Zachary
http://www.pbase.com/photoworkszach
http://www.photoworksbyzachary.com

Just my 2 cents worth here, but right now I'd be a lot more worried that your client doesn't find this thread. It's already been indexed by Google. Do a google search for kruger30 and this thread shows up on the first page of results.

Jon Laye said:

Today I recieved a scathing e-mail from the mother of a bride, she
was the one who hired my studio. I truly felt that I did a
wonderful job that evening and even plan on a sample or two from
the job. I shoot over 100 weddings a year so making some samples
is not typically done at every wedding. Anyway, below is a link to
th online proofs and the e-mail she wrote.

In addition to myself, I had an aspiring photographer there. My
images start on page 6 of the gallery.
I have edited out parts of the e-mail to protect identity. And
there is no waterfall on the grounds of the location the wedding
was at. So other that that, what do you all think?

Oh, the wedding had about 40 people there, no really issues with
anyone being late. I thought things went smooth. Technical info
is posted at the bottom if anyone is interested

http://www.sendtoprint.net

Event: kruger30

------------
However, I am totally dissatisifed and disappointed with the photos.

You requested sheets to be completed and faxed back to you. I
completely filled out these forms, plus added exactly what photos I
wanted and who should be in. These requests were not honored.

There were too many candid photo shots. Way too many candid shots.
I like posed photo of people.

There were not enought posed photographs taken. Especially of my
family. There is not one photo of the Bride and Groom, Parents of
Bride and sister??? I requested bride with Aunt - not one. I can
go on and on. Everything was written on the sheets I faxed.
However, they were not given too much attention.

No formal shots of anyone in front of the waterfalls. The beauty
of having an outside ceremony at the Addison is the fountains,
banyan trees, etc. At the beginning all photos were taken in one
spot - just as you walk in. Definitely no change of scenery.

Shots of Jill and Tony were taken in front of a window with black
bars on it as background. Why? There is so much landscaping out
side -why not use it. Instead, shots in front of an ulgy windows.

Poor lighting, so many photos had poor lighting.

One photo shot was of a chubby hand with a flower? What was that
all about?

Some of the photos showed marks on faces that should not be there.
Exampled, photo #7424 - of myself - marks on my face. Why? Can
this be covered up?

How can this all be correected?? After all is over you only have
photos to remember the wedding by. However, we do not have
photographs that we expected.
----------------------------------------------

Canon gear: 1Ds2, 17-40, 70-200 2.8, 50mm F1.4, 85mm F1.4. Due to
the beautiful outdoor location minimal lighting was used, just a
550ex flash and at times a small diffuser on top. Outdoors started
at ISO 160 and went to ISO 1000 by the time the ceremony was over.
I was handholding the 200mm so shooting was at 1/250th F3.2
typically. I would just raise the ISO as needed. Everything was
shot RAW and exposures were spot on. About 1/2 the images have no
corrections at all, no XMP files created when processed in ACR.
The reception was basically 1250 ISO 1/50th F4 and again, for a
tight room, low ceilings etc. I did not set up any room lights,
although I had them with me.

Thanks
Jon

Click to expand...

I also think that online proofing is difficult for older clients. I got married two months ago (at Hartley Botanica in Somis, Ventura County... I wonder if you've ever shot there??) and my photographer's package included all of my proofs sent to me AND a website for viewing and ordering.

My mother is on the other side of the country from me and is not very computer literate so my sister went over to her house to go through the online proofs with her. Now, I was thrilled with the pictures, so I was really sad that my sister reported back that my mom's biggest comment was how gray her hair looked! There was, in fact, a bit of an unfortunate blue cast to the uncorrected proofs (which I fully expect my photographer to correct when we order prints) that made my mom into a blue-haired old lady. Also, there were some 800 proofs online, which is difficult to wade through. And I know when I have sent my mother my own photos to look at on the internet, she has complained about how small they are!

In the meantime, the actual proofs were sent to me, the "best" 300 in an album and the rest boxed. I had a great time rearranging the album with my favorite 300, which was not the same as the photographer's. Then I sent my mother about 50 of the "leftovers" that didn't go into the album. My mother called when she received them, and she was effusive about how GREAT the photos are!!!

But I also have to say, I was thinking how amazing it was that, out of 800 photos, there were almost none that were unflattering. I guess the photographer did edit those out before they got to me!

Sheri

You're absolutely right here, JP, not just here but by and large and in general. The difference between P&S and PJ is the narrative, emotional or even poetic element that is essential to the latter and so infrequent to the former.

Not all brides are aware of this, but some truly are savvy to it. I met with a bride earlier this year who said that she had talked to many photographers but that none possessed a true photojournalistic style that really spoke to her. She was plain-spoken yet very aware of her own perceptions, and when I asked her to elaborate, she said "Well, a lot of their pictures were just of people standing around doing nothing, just picking their noses or something!"

I understood exactly what she meant.

What so often passes as "pj" style today are really just snapshots of people doing ABSOLUTELY nothing. Somehow, the fact that they are "unposed" is supposed to lend legitimacy to it.

As a variation on this theme, I see a lot of "pj" work that takes the "doing nothing" theme to a more artisitic level by showing a person doing absolutely nothing from a different perspective, frequently the back of them, or their feet, or their hands, etc. (At least there's effort, though!)

I don't see much real wedding photophotojournalism these days. Like you, I see a lot of point-and-shoot candids masqeurading as pj.

Sadly, the mother who is the subject of this original post has been blatantly ATTACKED for her opinions. She has been accused of everything from trying to scam free photography to blaming the photographer for herself finally looking older, to overtanning and smoking. While all those things may or may not be true, the fact is that she was photographed in an extremely unflattering way, one in which my young bride (who is not even a photographer) would have immediately identified as "one of those nose-picking shots", unaware that her moment of complacency has somehow been considered worthy of capture. (It wasn't.)

I don't claim to be a pj photographer. Frankly, I admire those few who do it well. But maybe this thread is an indication that those few who truly do practice genuine artistic wedding photojournalism don't bother to frequent these forums.

JP said:

Wedding PJ is an exciting area, but sometimes I just see P&S posing
as PJ. It must be a challenge for the pro, because there is a
special something that makes a pro's pj photo stand out from a
guests p&s.

The photos shown would have been good if taken by one of the
guests. Expected more from the pro.

Best Regards

Click to expand...

--
Michael Thomas Mitchell
http://michaelphoto.net

Vance Zachary said:

Before I leave the event, I also ask the bride and groom and all
sets of principals if there are any further images that they would
like to have before I leave

Click to expand...

Absolutely. This is VITAL to providing thorough coverage. In addition, it can help prevent problems such as the original poster had, both upfront and in the aftermath.

--
Michael Thomas Mitchell
http://michaelphoto.net

in my opinion, after perusing the images a bit, were very nice. You provided the type of coverage that most couples today would like to have.

I don't think your client is complaining about the nice coverage you provided, but rather that they did not see what they expected to see; she was very specific in her complaints and has some valid concerns

This is a lesson for all of us

You can present the client with an award winning wedding album from PPA or WPPI or any pro organization; but, if the client doesn't see what they wanted and expected to see, they are going to be dissatisfied

If a mother of the bride says she wants a photo herself and her sister, you had better make sure you got that photo or have a good excuse why you didn't get it (like the aunt didn't show up)

Make a list of these things and take it with you and make sure that it happens!

It behooves all of us to make sure our coverage suits the client as best we can--especially the checkbook holder

--
Vance Zachary
http://www.pbase.com/photoworkszach
http://www.photoworksbyzachary.com

I do not advocate giving or showing your client a checklist of must get photos so that they can use such a checklist to nail you to the wall later when circumstances did not allow you to take a certain specified image

I do advocate that you sit down with your customers and ask your client about special work friends, sorority sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, etc. and make a checklist for yourself

The checklist is for you--not your client

Do not leave the event until everyone on the checklist is photographed both in candids and in posed photos

I also ask the clients before I leave if there are any other photos they would like to have; this is not in itself enough to satisfy your obligation because clients are not always aware of everyone you have photographed and who you haven't and, in the excitement of the event, may not be able to think of anyone more though there may be many

They will remember, however, that you took the time and made that extra gesture to provide the perfect wedding day coverage

--
Vance Zachary
http://www.pbase.com/photoworkszach
http://www.photoworksbyzachary.com

As said here many times, I think MOB just doesn't like the way she looks anymore and it's just going to grind on her forever. Yes, 7424 was a bad choice to keep in the proofs.. but it's real..

As I'm reading this thread I get an E-mail from a bride wanting to change her album again! this will be the 7th time she has changed this. After OK'ing each page of the album before time.

I just had to crack-up reading this thread and getting one of my own at the same time.

Just another older bride that does not look 23 anymore, and she's not liking it.


GOOD MORNING MR. SCRIP,

THE WEDDING ALBUM IS BEAUTIFUL, THANK YOU SO VERY, VERY MUCH. THE ALBUM WAS WORTH THE WAIT. HOWEVER I NEED YOUR HELP. THERE IS A PICTURE IN MY WEDDING ALBUM THAT I JUST DON’T LIKE. THE PICTURE IS OF ME. IS THERE A WAY THIS CAN BE FIXED. THE PICTURE #8178. I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS MY FAULT AND THAT I OVER LOOKED THIS PICTURE. I REALLY, REALLY WOULD LIKE THIS PICTURE REMOVED SO I CAN SHOW OFF THE BEAUTIFUL WEDDING ALBUM.

THANKS XXXXXXXXX

PLEASE HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--
Bob Scrip
Equiment in profile where it's suppost to be!

Kel Toookay said:

I'm also surprised, (well not really) at the attitude many of the
people have here regarding the MOB/client....

Click to expand...

Me too!

To me it is no surprise the client is not satisfied at all.

If you present your work that way (starting wirh six pages of pictures done by your assistant) you must not be surprised if the customer does like it.

It is not that the client is to dump to value the work, it is the photographer who gave/presented the work to the client in an way that lead to the clients disappointment!

Sascha

I have the same situation..
I have a biiiiiiiiiiggggg mouth Ralph...

My uncle bob may come back to bite me yet..

so stupid for posting here..

so many people view and belong to this site, it could get back.

I hope my last client doesn't get offended from what me and others posted here.

I have to agree in general with her complaints, I got to page 24 and still have no idea where it was shot, nice snaps of the Bride and Groom, but it tells me very little of the day. Did you shoot the requested groups? if not then why not. If the venue has fountains and gardens then your pictures are plain bad.

If this is one of your better ones, I'm not impressed, they are just snaps, nothing "pro" about them.

I felt their wasn't enough formal shots. Keep in mind, I'm not a wedding photographer, otherwise your work is good.

http://www.richardkinkelstudio.com

If I were you, I would beg Phil to remove this thread. It reflects terribly on you and other pros who have waded in with their opinions, especially with their descriptions of your client. You have held up a client to ridicule and embarrassment. Totally unprofessional. Sometimes it is better to suffer in slence and deal with the circumstances as best you can. gc

I think you have 5 times too many images on the site to choose from, most tiny variations. Cut the repetitive ones that add nothing.

I looked at the first few pages and asked myself, did you miss the ceremony?

Then I realised there was or seemed to be no particular order to your shot ordering. I wouldn't be surprised if the shots she wants are in there, they are just a: buried and b: not in sequence.

Present your photos sequentially, currently they seem very random so it is hard to find anything.

I think your photos look great - no complaints, but I think your customer is telling you your presentation and customer interactions are poor, and I agree.

--
http://public.fotki.com/wibble/public_display/

Sorry, but to my eye the photos look boring, the vast majority shot with the same on-camera lighting, shot from the same distance, height, and angle, and nearly all suffering from dead-center-itus.

There's nothing creative here at all.

It's very hard to comment without knowing both sides of an argument, however I would say that a wedding day, regardless of who pays the photographer, is about the bride and groom.

You asked for opinions, here's mine stated as impartially and inoffensive as it can be. I know things are different in the States, but to my way of thinking, no matter where we cover a wedding, the day belongs to the bride and groom. No one else. I've looked through your gallery and I have to say I feel, from what I can see there assuming the collection is all there, that you have failed to cover the story of their day. I don't know how that could have happened with two photographers present.

The vast majority of shots are average candids or informals which don't even contain the bridal party. There are too many candids, and too many repeats of candids. If you are going to have this many candids, and there's nothing wrong with that provided you balance them with a very good selection of the main players - the bridal party and important family members. Add to that the PITA formals every mum wants from their childs wedding.

You must have agreed a strategy with your client before proceeding? Assuming she informed there were a number of important group shots she wanted, where are they? I know they are a PITA to do. I hate them and always advise against more than eight, but if that's what they want, and they booked you on that understanding, then you must deliver those shots to them, or a valid reason they will accept as to why you were unable to.

There are virtualy no shots of the bride and groom together and those there are, are repetitive and boring. Use of locations and posing is average and use of lighting is poor. Most of the lighting (on B & G) is flat and unflattering. I'm assuming there are other suitable locations and your not stuck in the middle of a building site.

I agree with her the bars are not nice. What we may see in our minds eye as a photographer is not always what may appear on paper. Always take some shots at one location and move on to the next. Again, assuming there was suffiecient time, and if there wasn't then the planning stage was ill-conceived too.

The shot MOB speaks of is so horrible anyone should see she will hate it. I know that's what she looks like, but don't shove that image at her and remind her. That was definitely one for the bin, unless you were prepared to retouch her complexion and iron out those impefections. She wanted to be made to look beautiful, which is probably how she feels about herself.

It wouldn't have taken you long to work wonders by smoothing the lines etc. Give it a go and soften it, then show her to see if she prefers it.
I think, despite your efforts, you didn't deliver what you should have.

It's now become a very crucial damage limitation exercise. Crucial to the survival of your business. No matter how succesfull your business may be, you cannot afford for this client to bad mouth you around town.

This is definitely not a matter for discussion by e-mail. Text is very impersonal and a simple comment can so very easily be misconstrude, especially by a client with an axe to grind.

The moment you received this message you should have stopped EVERYTHING and picked up the 'phone to speak with her in person. Eat humble pie and let her vent steam. Be calm and above all totally polite. I think you will find, in fact I know you will find, that once she has vented her frustration she will calm down.

Once that has happened you then need to go and see her, on her turf, or somewhere nuetral, like a cafe. Not at your studio.

The next thing is to placate her. Start by agreeing with her if you know you have failed to deliver the goods. Don't argue with her, listen to her and let her talk. Be patient and understanding. Ask how you can make it up to her and if that means a refund then by golly give it to her! In full. It will cost you a great deal less than the lost work she will cost you. It only takes one seed of doubt in a prospective clients mind for them to look elsewhere. And she can plant some very big seeds, even if she is wrong about you.

There is an old fashioned saying which so many traders seem to have all but forgotten. "The customer is ALWAYS right".

I don't know how far this has gone, but if there is anything you can do to win her back, you'd better do it, and fast. For the sake of your reputation.

I write this based on the little knowledge I have of this from your original post, (I have not read the previous posts) and from viewing the gallery.
Good luck my friend, I hope you can bring her round.
Derek Hill