Dissatisfied wedding client. Opinions please...

By the way I think the response has a good, disarming tone but, as
painful as it may be, I'd consider...gulp...calling her.
Sometimes, people get a case of email guts and she may not be as
mad as her email sounds. Talking to her makes her tell it to your
face.
VERY good advice above. Calling also makes it a lot more personal - she'll know you care (even if you don't). Just make sure that the conversation doesn't deteriorate into name calling from your side; that includes sarcasm and other subtle put-downs. It will achieve nothing. Make a list of things you want to talk to her about (your email is a good start) and try mightily to stick to just those topics.

Good luck. And I must agree with the guys hereabouts - nice pics.

--
Rob

If you're bored...
http://braveulysses.deviantart.com/
 
he is right. if you've sent your email reply, well, so be it, but if you haven't yet you should reconsider.

1) it needs proofreading (makes you appear sloppy and unprofessional).

2) it is very defensive in tone, yet at this point you don't know for sure what is going on. for all you know she has had some computer glitch and isn't viewing what you are. it is in your best interest to figure out exactly what is going on in her head first.

i understand if you came to this forum in part to vent and get some "buck-up, chum" support, but the professional thing to do would be to check that attitude before you communicate with the mob. i suggest you take another poster's suggestion and arrange to talk to her on the phone or in person, but if you want to continue with email, the principle is the same. tell her you understand from her email that she has concerns about some things, and you would like to get a better idea of how she is feeling and exactly what her concerns are. listen; don't start by defending yourself. if it were me, i would probably collect about 8-12 really good shots (and btw, you ought to be culling formals of the bride with her eyes closed) and send them to her in an email, at slightly higher res and less harsh sharpening (the combination of low qual and excessive sharpening on that web page album is very unflattering; i'd be concerned if i were her too, and didn't know that the actual photos have a very different character). then you will have a more concentrated sample to point to in the course of the discussion. whatever her concerns are, chances are you can answer with something along the lines of 'i see what you mean. i think that we can solve this problem. take a look at this one, for example. it's going to look lovely in the album. in fact i was hoping to use it for my sample book, you know, like the ones you saw when you hired me.' you acknowledge her pov, and you offer a solution to her problem. never mind if the problem was imaginary and the 'solution' already exists.

good luck.
 
You need to create a win-win situation. I do not shoot weddings. With that said, this weekend I shot my first wedding for a dear friend whose son was getting married and they were going to hire an amatuer. I told him I would do better than any $300 photographer, which is what they were going to pay. I did the wedding as a gift.

With that said. I sat down with the bride and groom and showed them other weddings so I knew what type of shots they liked and didn't like. I also showed them my style of shots and made sure they were comfortable with it.

I took about 1500 shots between the wedding, dinner, and them going out on the town afterwards (including things like them in the subway). I then editted it down to 400 shots and DELETED the rest so they only saw strong photos. I then narrowed that down and showed them the best. Strongly editted work makes a huge difference.

My suggestions at this point is to appease MOB as much as possible. Don't offer to charge to retouch, just offer the retouching. Create a win win so that you don't go to court. Also, I don't know if anyone mentioned it or if you have, but how to do the bride and groom feel about the pictures? While they didn't hire you, if they are happy, they might be able to buffer the mom.

As for the pictures. I think as others have said editting would have helped. I thought the lighting was fine, but your backgrounds could have been vastly improved and at least blurred more with better apeture selection.

Jeff Salvage
http://www.JeffSalvage.com
 
Client has valid some very valid criticisms.

Why would any photographer choose to take pix of bride & groom against those ugly black bars ? Large white ball on staircase very distracting behind bride's head ? No pic of B&G & parents & sister. Most families would think that an essential shot. A lot of awkward poses.

Some of the indoor "lighting" is savage. Too harsh, contrasty & too sharp on faces, emphasising lines & wrinkles. Gives the Raccoon effect.Maybe down to the high ISO. Your flash, when used,seems to have little spread. Almost like a spotlight.Need pp.
Sorry, but like all of us, a lot of room for improvement.
 
I'm a complete amateur but I gotta say I think most of the shots on the first pages are quite poor. Portraits that are sharp like a technical reproduction, photos that have been "flashed flat" by that single camera mounted flash, outdoor shots with a white sky and pale colors.. ouch.

And wrinkles are emphasized by the way those preview proof images are presented. They are very small (430x280), too highly compressed and either resized with a bad algorithm or sharpened too much afterwards. At least on an LCD they look terribly harsh. I would refuse to select shots from such bad quality "proofs".

Then there's the nonsense of a disabled right mouse button when the pointer is over the images and a session timeout that requires relogin.. oh my. I've never seen an analog proof album of a wedding but I bet this is a huge step back.
 
" Some of the photos showed marks on faces that should not be there. Exampled, photo #7424 - of myself - marks on my face. "

Well, she is perfectly right. Of course botox would be an option, but on the other hand:

Why didn't you just erase this picture (and many others, the art is to show the good pictures to the client and not to make them to look for a needle in a haystack, as they will only be disapointed by the hay)?

That woman is on so many other pictures, she booked the photographer...

You don't have to be Sigmund Freud to know she's vain...

SASCHA
 
As for capturing too many candid? The crowd was partying heavily
all night and gave me plenty of action to capture, but feel free to
delete what you feel is over kill.
That would have been your job!
We have well over 500 images
from a wedding of around 40 people.
But you can't give all the material to the customer to make an edit/selction...
As far as lighting? I am not sure how to reply, from start to
finish the lighting was excellent. In fact I pulled some images
from your daughters wedding to hold as examples of virtually
perfect lighting. The posed images of Jill in front of the
courtyard fountain represent some of the best lit scenes I have
captured in some time.
Looking at these pictures I asked myself "Why didn't he shoot bride AND groom TOGETHER there, but only the bride." I think you client did just the same. Especially when she saw the photographes in front of a boring wall.
The natural light was soft, offered
excellent definition for her hair and I can't see how any
improvements could be made.
She's a bride! Include the groom in the picture!

The reception was a bit dark but was
perfectly workable. It would have been nice to have the lighting a
little brighter but do to so would have altered the feel of the
reception. Again, I can find less then a dozen poorly lit photos,
Ask yourself: why did you give them to the client?
I looked at
7424 and I don't see any marks, perhaps it did not download
properly. Try refreching the page while holding down the Shift key.
This forces your web browser to completly download the page again.
If you can't see the massive wrinkles on her face and if you don't understand why she doesn't like this picture....

SASCHA
 
I am also a complete amatuer. After having read every message in this thread and looking at every page of images from the Kruger wedding, I am in agreement with the advice of Jim Herndon. Your exposure, lighting, flashwork, and color are all technically impressive. As an amatuer I am impressed with the above elements and if I were a lay person looking to buy some of these photos, I would also be happy with those elements.

I learned for the first time in this thread that there are apparently at least two styles of wedding photographers: those who work in the traditional style and those who work in a photo-journalistic style. I had never seen any PJ style before and, as a lay person, was very surprised to see the complete lack of a single "traditional," "posed" photograph. If I had not been informed up front that this was your style, I also would have been very disappointed when I saw the photos. They are professional looking "snapshots" that anyone can do that understands how to expose properly and has the proper equipment but takes no time to professionally or elegantly pose the subjects.

Further, given the number of unflattering images posted (eyes completely closed or half-closed, mouths open, weird expressions in the middle of a conversation, the MOB image), I would not hire you nor recommend that anyone else hire you. Honestly, it looks very unflattering to have your price list to the right of a poor image, as if you expect that a viewer might want to pay for images with closed eyes, etc. You stated in a previous post that you have too much business now to cull the poor images and that, "All it took was a few clients to ask about specific images that they remember being taken" for you to begin posting everything. Having too much business is generally a good problem to have, but I would think that the best business choice you could make is to only accept the work that you have the time to do, and then do it well to ensure that you only put forth the best product.

In this case, that would mean taking the time to cull the unacceptable images.

In the last 2 weeks I have been asked to take pagaent photos for my niece, to produce a set of family portraits for a co-worker, and to produce senior photos for two other people who heard of me by word of mouth. I've charged nothing for the work and used these opportunities to make beginner's mistakes and to learn from them. And I mostly made mistakes.

However, even as an amatuer not charging for the work, I have refrained from showing the images that I know are unacceptable. Technically, I wish I had your skill, and have a long way to go to reach your level. You have a lot of good advice in this thread and I hope you integrate it into your work. Your clients will be all that more impressed with your work if you do.

On another note, I quit counting the number of times I had to hit the reload button to get the wedding images to load properly . . .

--
Dennis Rogers
http://www.lbimaging.us
http://www.pbase.com/legalbean
Canon 350D w/ 17-85mm EF-S IS USM
CP- E 4 2 0 0; Canon Powershot S 4 1 0
Fuji FinePix F-10 Zoom
 
I agree with making the presentation better organized and perhaps
weeding out more. Here is an album made from a wedding at the same
location to give you an idea of what we do. The client in
questions did not order an album yet, she paid a basic shooting
fee, $2000, shoot, proofs, wallets for thank you's.
If you showed her this
to illustrate what you do and gave her this
you must not wonder why she doesnt like it!

If you order the same as the person on the other table has in a restaurant, but get a brown paper bag including the ingredients, you'll fell like your client.

And anyway, you started your "presentation" with 6 pages of photo shot by some assistant.

SASCHA
 
just ignore most of what I said in my previous post .. the photos
get a lot better on the 7th page, but I did not get that far on my
first two tries.
And this might have happened to other people, too! For example the MOB in this case.
but please learn to edit your work and present the stronger
material up front.
But the MOB is no photographer who can give you this advice. She is just disapointed.

SASCHA
 
I think you did a good job. Basically what I get from reading her email to you and seeing the photos, is that the mother of the bride hates her own appearance. Unfortunately the camera never lies, and in her case her facial wrinkles are right out in front. It's not your fault, she's over-reacting to her own insecure vanity. BTW I've never had anyone complain about too many candids. Don't let her get to you.
 
Shots of Jill and Tony were taken in front of a window with black
bars on it as background. Why? There is so much landscaping out
side -why not use it. Instead, shots in front of an ulgy windows.
here, I disagree, the close-up with the bars is so-so but the full pics are very nice indeed. The wall and window is very graphic.
Poor lighting, so many photos had poor lighting.
here, I have to agree, even if she's a MOB and I'm a photographer. Why all this flashing around? there's wayyyy too much flash in all those pics. Where is the ambient light? no wonder her "marks" are visible with bounced flash...

Also, this goes to prove you should NEVER** show unedited proofs to the client. Also, do you think people will want to buy prints of unedited pictures? Sure, why edit 1000 pictures if you're only going to sell 100 of them? well, I'd say, delete some of the numerous duplicates you have in that gallery... then this won't appear as a "mass of pictures she didn't want".

And if the couple buys 100 of the pics, maybe the guests will buy additional pics... so you won't have worked for nothing.

Still, I'd never show unedited pics to a client. Some of the pics I take can be pretty bad out of camera, but become really viewable once processed. You just have to process them. I tend to agree that "as they are" in your gallery, most have bad lighting and aren't flattering.

Several portraits and posed shots have really good lighting* , really, I like them (bride near the stairs with bouquet). The couple's entry on the aisle is really neat too, very dynamic, nice background blur, I like it. Alas, many others are just bounced flash snapshots to me and on the aisle pics, check your horizon... slanted pics don't do you much good with a touchy MOB... (ACR has a handy rotate feature you really should use when producing proofs).

' I'm french and I'm rude. Surprised? '
 
Some of the photos showed marks on faces that should not be there.
Exampled, photo #7424 - of myself - marks on my face. Why? Can
this be covered up?

How can this all be correected?? After all is over you only have
photos to remember the wedding by. However, we do not have
photographs that we expected.
----------------------------------------------
THAT WAS A FACE??????

It looks like a rhinos behind
 
A bit OT,but I just saw yesterday this movie in which Meryl Streep runs a fashion magazine and completely abuses her assistant. Her assistant is determined though to excel at her job and eventually learns to know, meet and ANTICIPATE all of her boss's expectations.

I think a lot of the suggestions here are geared towards achieving that goal (web presentation, traditional style, communication, etc..) and whether the MOB is unpleasant is beyond the point.

I woudn't be surprised either if the MOB had some photographer friend look at the web gallery and feed her with critical suggestions (as pointed out in some posts) to include in her email ... And she certainly knows that the more difficult and demanding she is, as unpopular as that might be, the more likely she is to get better service (this is unfortunately often true, whether you are a boss or a customer).
 
Hi

I haven't read all the responses in this thread (it would take all day) but I did look at your gallery. First off let me say that I think the photos you took are pretty good, and if I were the bride I'd be very happy with them. There are some very flattering pictures of the bride (and that's really important!)

However, I think you have a presentation problem that may have caused her concern. Basically you put the photos of the wanna-be photography before your own. This is the same as presenting your worst photos first (I'm not saying his photos are bad, but they are not the photos you'd put in the formal album). Is it possible that she gave up looking at the photos before looking at all the pages in the gallery? The fact that this photographer's photos are mostly candids probably got her back up even if she did get to your photos.

I would either recommend: presenting your photos first (after initially weeding out the bad ones) or synching your camera's time/date stamp with the 2nd photographer and presenting the photos by time/date. That way there is a flow and the events of the day are in one timeline and not two.

I think whenever specific poses are requested the bridal party have to appoint someone to organize this. After all, how do you know which aunt is which? And aren't you there to take photos, not to chase relatives? It constantly amazes me that the bridal party expect the photographer to be responsible for organizing that. However, in this instance, as these specifics were requested and you didn't make arrangements to delegate the organizing of these formals, I think you are responsible for not taking these photos and she has every right to be angry. A printed checklist of photos to be taken and checking them off as you go would have prevented this problem. You could have requested a relative to round-up the necessary participants if you were unsure of the identity of these people.

As for the waterfall, I think she means the water fountain and not a waterfall.

My suggested solution is to discount the job based on the number of missing photos as per the fax. Let's say the shoot was for 200 prints, work out a price per print and then subtract the missing ones. She is probably never going to be happy with any solution you come up with but at least you won't have charged her for these. I would not offer free stuff (it could get out of hand). You could also suggest a reshoot, but I doubt she'll take it as it is difficult to get the same people back after the fact.

Anyway, just my 2 cents...

--
MazG
 
And aren't you there to take photos, not to
chase relatives? It constantly amazes me that the bridal party
expect the photographer to be responsible for organizing that.
However, in this instance, as these specifics were requested and
you didn't make arrangements to delegate the organizing of these
formals, I think you are responsible for not taking these photos
and she has every right to be angry.
Print sellers lament, take notice and beware. This sort of answer is
your problem and downfall if it is adopted by the public. If weddings come
to this point when a few pictures on a theoritical list are not there and that
is cause for complaint, then lord knows what is next for an excuse not to
pay or at least complain. Just don't book weddings with a list is going to
be the result of that line of thinking. It seems that the list came from the
MOB and not the couple. Pros can't take a list from every relative that
wants to make one up? Just becaue you delegate a person to follow up
on a list, does not mean it will be fulfilled.

A printed checklist of photos
to be taken and checking them off as you go would have prevented
this problem. You could have requested a relative to round-up the
necessary participants if you were unsure of the identity of these
people.
I have done many wedding with and without lists. Lists are a pain in the
keister and slow down the whole wedding. For certain more formal weddings
they can be approiate and others they can be destructive. My point is that lists
can cause all kinds of problems as this wedding has produced.
My suggested solution is to discount the job based on the number of
missing photos as per the fax. Let's say the shoot was for 200
prints, work out a price per print and then subtract the missing
ones.
Dangerous thinking. So you want to be known as the pro who will discount
every wedding least the client only has to complain? Geeeeeze.... I would never
put a deal with the word 'subtracted' in any shape or context.

She is probably never going to be happy with any solution
you come up with but at least you won't have charged her for these.
I would not offer free stuff (it could get out of hand). You could
also suggest a reshoot, but I doubt she'll take it as it is
difficult to get the same people back after the fact.
Reshoot a wedding? Come on, not even possible. If you do a good joy and
the couple are happy, then don't waste your time on silly relatives. Put the
MOB off and tell her to deal with the couple on her orders. Don't have too
many demands from crazy relatives and you will be better off. Print sellers
must go through this all the time and it is one reason not to have that business
model?
 
While I love your images, I will like to put on the CLIENT'S hat. That is what the client thinks:

"The pictures are good and professional, but MY picture, IMG_7424 reminds me that I am not as young as I used to be".

You show what there is. Like my son "telling the truth". Being a pro, as you are, and I am not, you could have made a more flattering image (she did smile once, did she?).

In a wdiing we not journalists. We wave memories. Good memories. That is how we sell images after the event. The mother, probably had a long six month leading to the event, and was very worried. She should not be reminded of this. You caught the mother in a bad moment and crystallised it. The image was not a keeper and should have not be published, even if this was the only imaghe of the mother.

Again, all the pictures are good and professional. But hey, we do not want to be reminded of our challenges.
--
Avner

The EOS system is very rich, complex and hard to learn if you want to understand it well.

http://picasaweb.google.com/avner.ottensooser

EOS 5D
EF 24-105mm f/4.0 L IS USM
EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS USM
Speedlite 580EX Flash
 
Ok, my understanding was that the contract was with the MOB (maybe I was wrong?). If so, and if she specifically requested certain shots in writing (not a theoretical list), it would technically be breach of contract unless there was some out clause put in the contract that would apply to this situation.

Breaches of contract are dealt with in different ways, specific performance (reshoot - the specific shots not the entire wedding DA), compensation (in this case refund for missing shots), contract cancellation (she could walk from the deal and everyone would be unhappy). The simplest (IMHO) being to refund for shots contracted but not performed.

I think the OP opened the door by allowing the MOB to make these requests AND agree to do them (rather than state that he would only try). The mistake was to contract for specific shots rather than to shoot an event. Expectations were set and the OP did not meet them.

As I stated before, I think it is the wedding party's responsibility to put together specific shots if they are required. The photographer is way to busy at the event and may miss some. However, in this instance the OP agreed to take the responsibility and that was his downfall.

Now on the other hand, if the contract was with the B&G only, then the MOB's opinions are merely that, and of no consequence. The fact that the photos taken were great is irrelevant to the contractual issue at hand.

MazG
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top