Sorry Sigma but no to DP1

The Ricoh looked like the ideal pocket camera, until I saw the images, and it became totally clear that mega-megapixels crammed into a super small sensor just aint going to do it, IQ wise. At least not for me.

If you truly know what Sigma is offering sensor-size wise, I don't understand the original poster at all. Baffles the mind.

--

The rumors that Foveon and Sigma were doomed to ruins have been grossly exaggerated...

I agree! I just don't understand all the postings from those who have made a decision, PRO or CON on any of these new cameras. Very little hands on reviews or information, and yet this forum has been flooded with useless opinions.

adegroot said:

If you truly know what Sigma is offering sensor-size wise, I don't
understand the original poster at all. Baffles the mind.

Click to expand...

That's the point, we don't truly know what Sigma is offering... since we haven't seen one example picture yet.

I can't wait to see samples on line, of the SD14 or DP1...

Kind Regards

Brian

adegroot said:

--
The rumors that Foveon and Sigma were doomed to ruins have been
grossly exaggerated...

Click to expand...

--
--



http://www.gopetition.com/online/9523.html

I think we have enough information to discuss wether the company is going in the right or wrong direction with their product. I think many of us secretly wish that if we make it clear enough what we like and don't like, and what we'd do differently, Sigma will catch on, and adopt those changes before it's too late (the product is released).
What else are we supposed to do with our time. Take pictures?

Mathias

in4out said:

I agree! I just don't understand all the postings from those who
have made a decision, PRO or CON on any of these new cameras. Very
little hands on reviews or information, and yet this forum has been
flooded with useless opinions.

Click to expand...

Barrie,

Opinions without information can be problematic. But where you can get quantitative to understand what to expect, you should.

The only thing quantitative you mentioned was f/2.8 on your Ricoh versus f/4 on the Sigma. If you'd factor in the sensor size, or normal focal length, you'd see that this means the Sigma camera has a larger absolute aperture diameter (work it out), and therefore captures more light from the scene, and gives you more DOF control to blur backgrounds. Larger format is generally better is these ways, compared to your toy-size sensor, which is why Sigma has a potentially interesting market opportunity with this camera.

And if you'd look at the way the X3 and Bayer work, you'd know that with the X3, most of the photons captures by the lens from the scene get converted to electrons that can be measured. In monochrome mode, the three signals from the three layers can be added up, making for a very good net signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range of 4.7 M grayscale pixels. On the Bayer, by contrast, the green or luminance elemements (5 M of them) each see only less than 1/3 of the spectrum, each in a fraction of the area. The red and blue sensor data can be added, but can't really provide much extra resolution without aliasing chroma detail to false luma detail; the net use of light is not very efficient. With a little work, you might estimate what fraction of photons the Bayer sensor gets to make your monochrome photo with compared to the X3, and from that estimate the shot noise and signal-to-noise ratio, or ISO limit for whatever quality criterion you want to use.

But, if that's over your head, just look at some of the existing collections of SD10 monochrome images, and then wait to see how much better the SD14 does as an idea what the other new camera is likely to be like. Try some of these at "original" size:
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/all_black_and_white

If you want in-camera monochrome, there's no reason that can't be one of the while-balance options, and still save the color raw data in case you change your mind. I don't know if Sigma is planning to do this on either camera, but it's something we could ask them for.

j

Barrie Marshall said:

Somehow I cant see me buying the DP1.

My Ricoh GRD is my constant companion, it slips easilly into its
case on my belt, I have it set to Black and White about 95% of the
time because the results are exrememly good and that is the reason
many people buy the camera, will the DP1 give the same monochrome
results? also the GRD has legendary grain like noise and I find
when you sharpen it handles the noise/grain very well.

At the end of the day many an enthusiast, particularly in black and
white its not about having pin sharp results its about how the
finished image looks aesthetically and the GRD is well capable of
giving pleasing results.

Also as in my film days I do a lot of available low light work and
the 2.8 lens is of course of great use, the DP1 has a smaller
maximum aperture.

Sorry Sigma but no!

--
Barrie

Click to expand...

Barrie Marshall said:

I do know about tonality in a scene, I did darkroom work from 18
years old until about six years ago when I moved into a house that
did not have room for one, I am now 66 years old.

Click to expand...

Barrie,

I just turned 65. Closed my darkroom a few years ago, but kept on shooting with film and used a scanner until one year ago when I went with a completely digital workflow.

Barrie Marshall said:

The trouble with a lot of photographers who have never used a
darkroom and gone through the process of hours of doing prints
until you get it right is they can go into photoshop and convert at
the push of a key or use a filter, or channel mixer or just even
convert to greyscale and be happy with the results,

Click to expand...

You'd think it's that easy , but it isn't. Good b&w doesn't happen at a touch of a key. I'm seeing a lot of pictures posted to this and other forums lacking in general density, overblown skies and worst of all, oversharpened.

This is what happens when doing digital b&w on autopilot.

I know that the

Barrie Marshall said:

digital darkroom is easier to use than a wet darkroom but
photographers who have used wet darkrooms and gone digital to black
and white work probably get better results because of the hours of
experience.

Click to expand...

Barrie Marshall said:

That is why I know that the B&W mode on the Ricoh GRD is good, I
always have to do post processing but that is normal, like having a
good negative and going into the wet darkroom to manipulte until
you get a result you like, my GRD gives me the equivilent of a good
negative.

Click to expand...

In the darkroom where you always using just one filter grade for all your negatives and exposed different frames with the same time lenght ? How did you compensate with over and under exposure ?

Explore using RAW with the GRD. That should give you a good digital negative from which to work on.

But, you still havent explain the reasonning behind your original post "Sorry Sigma but no to DP1".

Best and goodbye,
Villebon

hello again-under an other name.
troubles logging in.

ok-it took me less than 2 seconds to check quality of ricoh grd-image-quality when passing by.

i have seen one single print at photokina.

1. the print was much smaller(maybe 28x35cm) than very sharp sigma sd-14.
minimal-size 47x70cm(high).

2. even at that small size it was clearly unsharp.

so no need to worry. we can live without viewfinder. ok, shooting is different. maybe we could get an angleviewfinder-solution. shooting from the hip-like lomo, but it highest quality level.

3. that construction with fixed focal lens could lead to much sharper images than sd-14. like zeiss- ikon.

btw: check text of dr hubert nass of zeiss in innovation-brochure laid off at photokina. maybe there is an online-link.

he is not only explaining lens-quality but also telling us that zeiss will use FF-digital when chips are ready to handle it at highest quality level.

see more of my photokina-images(not only sigma).

unfortunately i forgot the monopod-so i had some troubles with the not perfectly stable string-solution. thats why i repeated some reproduction-shots and added more by using flashm but shooting from left side. so forgive some unavoidable distortions.

--
http://www.europanorama.tk
3d-stereo-aeropanoramas
SWISS ALPS like never before!
3d-stereo-marspanoramas

it seems only an other login-name.

michael przewrocki said:

hello again-under an other name.
troubles logging in.

ok-it took me less than 2 seconds to check quality of ricoh
grd-image-quality when passing by.

i have seen one single print at photokina.

1. the print was much smaller(maybe 28x35cm) than very sharp sigma
sd-14.
minimal-size 47x70cm(high).

2. even at that small size it was clearly unsharp.

so no need to worry. we can live without viewfinder. ok, shooting
is different. maybe we could get an angleviewfinder-solution.
shooting from the hip-like lomo, but it highest quality level.

3. that construction with fixed focal lens could lead to much
sharper images than sd-14. like zeiss- ikon.
btw: check text of dr hubert nass of zeiss in innovation-brochure
laid off at photokina. maybe there is an online-link.
he is not only explaining lens-quality but also telling us that
zeiss will use FF-digital when chips are ready to handle it at
highest quality level.

see more of my photokina-images(not only sigma).
unfortunately i forgot the monopod-so i had some troubles with the
not perfectly stable string-solution. thats why i repeated some
reproduction-shots and added more by using flashm but shooting from
left side. so forgive some unavoidable distortions.

--
http://www.europanorama.tk
3d-stereo-aeropanoramas
SWISS ALPS like never before!
3d-stereo-marspanoramas

Click to expand...

--
http://www.europanorama.tk
3d-stereo-aeropanoramas
SWISS ALPS like never before!
3d-stereo-marspanoramas

Michael, I understand your 'taut string' method in lieu of tripod, and I think you got some very useful images with it.

In fact, your images are the ones which helped all of us in the forum, to feel full confidence that the SD-14 succeeds. And that has been very important.

Thank you for this and your initiative to get it done.

I am sure we're all be ready to enjoy the direct demonstration images when they come, but until then, we are enjoying yours.

Regards,
Clive

michael przewrocki said:

hello again-under an other name.
troubles logging in.

ok-it took me less than 2 seconds to check quality of ricoh
grd-image-quality when passing by.

i have seen one single print at photokina.

1. the print was much smaller(maybe 28x35cm) than very sharp sigma
sd-14.
minimal-size 47x70cm(high).

2. even at that small size it was clearly unsharp.

so no need to worry. we can live without viewfinder. ok, shooting
is different. maybe we could get an angleviewfinder-solution.
shooting from the hip-like lomo, but it highest quality level.

3. that construction with fixed focal lens could lead to much
sharper images than sd-14. like zeiss- ikon.
btw: check text of dr hubert nass of zeiss in innovation-brochure
laid off at photokina. maybe there is an online-link.
he is not only explaining lens-quality but also telling us that
zeiss will use FF-digital when chips are ready to handle it at
highest quality level.

see more of my photokina-images(not only sigma).
unfortunately i forgot the monopod-so i had some troubles with the
not perfectly stable string-solution. thats why i repeated some
reproduction-shots and added more by using flashm but shooting from
left side. so forgive some unavoidable distortions.

--
http://www.europanorama.tk
3d-stereo-aeropanoramas
SWISS ALPS like never before!
3d-stereo-marspanoramas

Click to expand...

michael przewrocki wrote:
i have seen one single print at photokina.

michael przewrocki #259361 said:

1. the print was much smaller(maybe 28x35cm) than very sharp sigma
sd-14.
minimal-size 47x70cm(high).

2. even at that small size it was clearly unsharp.

Click to expand...

Very interesting that not one other reviewer/journo at Photokina mentioned any DP1 images were on display - and you're telling us Sigma happily exhibited "rubbish" quality DP1 images ??
Are you trolling or what?

--
Shoot the Light fantastic

wolfie said:

wolfie said:

1. the print was much smaller(maybe 28x35cm) than very sharp sigma
sd-14.
minimal-size 47x70cm(high).

2. even at that small size it was clearly unsharp.

Click to expand...

Very interesting that not one other reviewer/journo at Photokina
mentioned any DP1 images were on display - and you're telling us
Sigma happily exhibited "rubbish" quality DP1 images ??
Are you trolling or what?

Click to expand...

Arrgh... come on ... Michael is obviously talking about a Ricoh Gr-1 picture.....

wolfie said:

--
Shoot the Light fantastic

Click to expand...

--
Frits Thomsen
See my pictures at
http://www.pbase.com/yoicz