Dissatisfied wedding client. Opinions please...

Overall, I think you did a good job. I think there was too many candids BUT I do the same too. In a typical wedding, I shoot anywhere from 400-800 images. From that I edit out the formal images and then the candids on a separate CD.

The first thing I do is have a family representative help us gather the groom's family and then the Brides family and then their relatives. I respect the bride and groom's parents by specifically asking them what images they want. I have a set sequence of events after the wedding ceremony which so far I have had no complaints from.

Also, NO compromising poses make it to the final cut. Not only are the embarassing, it is not really professional to include these.

First if you agreed to a list of must have photos then you should have given them these no matter what.

I dont know all the details but I do know that there are also people who will do anything to not pay for something. I dont know if this is the case here or not. In any business you will find customers you cant please, this is common.
--
http://www.pbase.com/galleries/sasc

Jon,

You really need to recognize that there are two different perspectives here that can NEVER be reconciled: yours and the mother of the bride. She has formed an opinion and no amount of coaching, coaxing, or educating is going to change it. And you're not likely to go through her points line by line and say to yourself, well gee, I guess she's right. So, what to do...

First, don't argue with her. That will only put her on the defensive and that will go nowhere. You don't have to agree with her in order to RECOGNIZE her disappointments. Figure out how you can BEST please her. (No, you're not going to please her 100%. But you still want to try to please her some, right?)

Culling, post-processing, and organization would have tremendously helped things here. This lady saw photos of her that were NOT flattering. In fact, there's a LOT of pictures here that are not flattering.. people caught in mid-sentence with their mouths open, people staring off into nothingness, etc. You've gotten some postive feedback in this thread, and while some of them are nice, many are quite poor, subject-wise. I also saw very little compositional variation, and lighting, while adequate, was neither creative, dynamic, or interesting. There's a lot of redundancy in that gallery that needs to be culled; the good shots will look better if the bad shots are thrown out. And quite frankly, do clients really need 500 photos of a wedding, many of them simply a small variation of the same shot repeated? You probably make a lot more money than me, but i'm just looking at it from a client's perspective.

Try at least a little to make this woman happy rather than trying to prove that she's wrong.

Best of luck

ps. See how "shot lists" can backfire now?

--
Michael Thomas Mitchell
http://michaelphoto.net

I'd suggest that you "Draganize" the MOB's image. That might accentuate the effects of too much S. Florida sun.
Here's a "Draganized" version of my ex-mother-in-law.



--
Regards,
(afka Wile E. Coyote)
Bill
PSAA
Equipment in profile.
Eschew obfuscation.
The frumious Bandersnatch

Hi,

I think the major mistakes were made up front. In talking with the mom, did you present yourself as a traditional-style photographer, a pj-style photographer, or a mixture of both? Did examples you showed have better traditional style images (or a higher percentage) than this wedding?

Perhaps the mom heard about your from a friend that liked your style of photography - but it turns out that this friend's tastes are not the same as the mom's tastes. Perhaps the mom rushed to choose you because of this word of mouth. That isn't your fault. But if you portrayed yourself in any way that you're not to convince the mom to sign you, then it is.

The images from the wedding are very solid in camera technique (especially your flash work indoors), but very poor in posing. It's clear that the traditional-style wedding poses and techniques are not your cup of tea. The mom wanted that, and you were not able to deliver it.

The most important part of any wedding, imho, are the formals of the bride and groom. You had an obviously gorgeous location. I'm a little baffled why you choose the bar window background with the b&g. I'm assuming the mom means the water fountain as the waterfall. It looks lovely for the individual images of the bride and groom separately - why not choose that as the background for the bride and the groom together?

Why do 80% of the b&g images just at the bar window area? Look at the images of the b&g looking at the camera - they are all the exact same pose. And that pose looks awkward - there's no elegance to it at all. You have some other poses, but they all involve the b&g looking at each other or away. That it fine, but you need to provide more variety of b&g images looking at the camera with better posing.

On the mom saying that you had poor lighting - that is the case in the group formals (which is probably where the mom is looking most closely). Ambient light with on-camera flash, fairly boring, but the worst part is that you have dappled sunlight hitting some of the people in the larger groups.

And again, in these formals, the posing is very poor. Straight on to camera and no attempt at hand placement.

On the mom's list - did she provide you with one and did you miss any of the images on the list? Did you have the list with you at the wedding? Does your contract have a policy about lists? If not, add one. My policy states that I will attempt to get all images on the client's list, but cannot be held liable for events out of my personal control (the bride or groom being late, a missing family member, so on). But, I know some photographers who actually state in their contract that they do not shoot by list - they don't even allow it. And I know some who state that the wedding traditionals consist of no more the 6-8 groupings.

If you did miss some of the images on that list, if the mom provided a list for you in advance, and if you have no policy on your contract to cover yourself - then you are at fault.

So, my feeling is that the mom thought she was hiring more of a traditional style photographer. You do not have strengths in this area. If you presented yourself more as a traditional-style photographer than you are, then you were asking for trouble. If the mom hired you somewhat blindly, then it's not really your fault - except for the list.

I'd strongly suggest you get some more training in traditional style posing. If you don't like that style, though, you don't have to use them. There's a whole new wave of photographers that pose differently these days. They are portrayed as pj-style photographers - but in fact they're not. They use a style of suggestive posing (giving the clients an idea to play with) rather than going over and physically tilting heads or moving arms - but it is still posing nonetheless and it is still elegant and romantic.

That is your great weakness technically. Your great strength is in camera and flash technique - the images are a superb example of the color and exposure conmsistency only possible in RAW. And you do have some very nice moment and detail images.

With future clients, either train yourself better in your weaknesses or be clearer with clients about what you provide at weddings (which is high-quality pj-style images, not traditional style poses and group shots). And look at your contract. Add a section to back up your butt concerning lists.

And in general, I'd suggest a greater variety of b&g together images (change the background more, change the posing more).

For this client, do what you can to make her happy. Be friendly and let her know that you'll be happy to PS out any marks. Give her a free product of some sort. Be professional and work with her as best you can. Best wishes.

Jim Herndon

Good advice.

Shad_Reed said:

The other major problem here appears to be communication.
She feels like she gave you a shot list but you say that you don't
have a shot list but rather a name list that merely tells you who's
who. I don't think she got what you were trying to say. She
EXPECTED one thing and you GAVE another. In the end, it is your
responsibility to make sure her expectations are met...either by
changing her expectations or changing what you give.

Click to expand...

Exactly. The mom may indeed be a MOBzilla, or have a Boca attitude, but it is very clear she was expecting something that she didn't get. This can be prevented in the future by being clearer with what the photographer DOES provide and with better communication before the wedding.

Jim Herndon

Sounds as good as you can make it.

Jim Herndon

This is why I have refused to shoot weddings on a number of occasions. I have heard horror stories from colleagues who do this for a living, most of them point squarely to the mother of the bride (or bridezilla's) as they are affectionately known. I have yet to hear of a wedding where the client did not find some sort of fault with the photographer's work. I have to say that I have much respect for those of you that can make a living out of this because I would not have the patience. No matter how candid and up front you are about your "style", people are always so on edge during weddings that they are just looking for something to go wrong, they will more often than not blame the "hired" help for this. I'll stick to catalogue work thank you, once the story boards are signed off on there is nobody the client can blame but themselves and that's that.

http://www.bluebeatdesign.com

Frankly, you sound apologetic in this response. Not too good if it shows up
in court. Don't give her so much info to use against you.

Phrases like "I think, I did my best" etc are not going to be in your favor.

Part of wedding planning is to anticipate this sort of response and how to
counter it. You do that in ALL of the pre wedding meetings by talking out the
wedding details and informing the family what will happen if plans are varied.

Did the MOB hire you? Was she there at the pre wedding events, plans or come
to your office? Did she she your work or did the couple hire you and she only
paid? She has no say if she did not come to the meetings. Therefore, you should
do nothing to appease her. No emails, no calls, nothing toward her, but you
can forward to the couple and discuss it verbally with them by phone. I would
not suggest any written communications least they be used against you later.

We have never had any complaints, but I would never address them in detail and
especially in writing. Our plan from the start was to avoid any such complaints
and cover our service by actually over working each wedding. If we feel there
is something being lost at a wedding, we state it there and then to the couple.
We ask MOB etc if there is anything they want during the wedding and do that

often. You know when something is missing, so state it as it happens. If they are

not giving you time to do the list, then say so to the couple and the paying party.
If you do that, then they can't come back later and complain and you have
told them what you think makes the best pictures and the didn't follow your
advice. You only have to say, "Hey, I consulted you on that one" verbally on the
phone and you are done.

I agree that your style technically is fine for most weddings. I also agree with the

MOB that there are too much candid, but that may not be your total fault. Learn to
interact with the guest more and do some posing with them. You documented the

wedding, but did little interactive work. Today you will get couples that want total
PJ as you almost did, but you happened to find a MOB that wanted more. In some

ways you just forgot to ask her and enlist her help to gather the people she wanted.

Cover your bases and anticipate these bumps in the road. Think backwards from
a time you might wind up in court and make sure they can't have any evidence
against you and a nice archive of pictures to back you up.

I have about one bride every two years that complains, makes my life miserable, and makes me wonder why I shoot weddings. But I've mostly had good experiences.

Most clients are reasonable people. Every once in a while I'll hit someone who is a pain - they are unusually either deeply unsatisfied with their physical appearance or have learned that the squeaky wheel gets the grease and have resorted to it being their normal modus operandi. But these people are relatively rare, thankfully.

I think in Jon's case, the mom is someone who is more used to the traditional style wedding photographer. Jon also should have culled the images more, and he never should have included 7424 (that's just asking for trouble). He might have made a mistake in choosing his spot for the b&g poses (which could have been easily remedied by going to a second spot as well. Technically, he did, a nice shot - but they are only looking at each other, not the camera). And there was a miscommunication about the list with the mom.

But all that said, this might be a MOBzilla. I don't know. He should just try his best to make her happy, hopefully learn some things he can do better in the future, and move on.

Jim Herndon

AperturePro said:

Frankly, you sound apologetic in this response. Not too good if it
shows up
in court. Don't give her so much info to use against you.

Phrases like "I think, I did my best" etc are not going to be in
your favor.

Click to expand...

Agreed. From a professional point of view the verbiage is too week. Change the “I's” to “We's” (makes it less personal) and change the "I think" to "We did" or what ever the proper language is for the point. My standard response to "I think" is "you thought WORNG."

Be positive and direct. Also shorter is better. I found the letter very wordy. Shorten it a bunch. I wouldn’t address each point directly like you would when responding to a news group posting. First reply should be short and take everything as a whole. Many times a direct and short response is all it takes to quell the complainers… Save the individual responses for later correspondence if the MOB continues.

As other have said, I doubt you'll ever satisfy the MOB and personal I'd bet her motives are really more in line with looking for a discount on the price. That's up to you. In my business I find sometimes its worth just giving a small discount to satisfy the situation. Especially when there's nothing else that will make the client happy.

--



Rob Kircher
My Stuff: http://www.pbase.com/rkircher

Jon, I have to say I felt the same way Brain did when I first started looking at the photos. You mentioned that the assistant’s photos where on the first 6 pages so I stuck it out and finally found what I suspect are you photos. IMO there's a huge difference in the two (as I would expect) but putting the assistant’s pics up front set entirely the wrong expectations. This could have tainted the MOB's opinions. Presentation is everything. Although I'm not sure anything could satisfy this person, I think putting the better photos up front would have helped you situation.

--



Rob Kircher
My Stuff: http://www.pbase.com/rkircher

Rob Kircher said:

Agreed. From a professional point of view the verbiage is too
week. Change the “I's” to “We's” (makes it less personal) and
change the "I think" to "We did" or what ever the proper language
is for the point. My standard response to "I think" is "you
thought WORNG."

Click to expand...

It is all negociation to the last enounter. They "work" you or the other
way around. Most of the time the "work" is pleasant, but know when someone
is trying to get your goat. Don't act sheepish if they do.

I have done jobs that, I myself, would say needed review and yet the couples
will write glowing thanks for the pictures. Most of my self criticism is about
having not enough time or missing certain shots but we can't be in all places
at one time. We can always see how a wedding "should" be covered, but the
schedule and family don't allow you to get that done. I think that was the case
here. You got the couple by the ironwork and they assumed that was it for the
day. Probably back to the party and not to a new location for other images.
Had they take more time, the MOB would be happy with the formal stuff.

Always mention things like this to the paying party and make sure they are
covered.

In any case, stay on top and don't let the MOB "work" the situation. Stay ahead

of her and don't give her reason to react more. I can almost here the response as
she talks to hubby. "He thought..... well he thought wrong.... as another poster
put it. Don't give them the chance to react like that in your communications.
A good sales person knows every question, the answer and each response that
could possibly come later. That is just experience and knowing how to respond
and not get yourself in deeper.

Sure, you probably did a fine job and the woman's complaints are for the most part unwarranted. However, don't lose sight of the big picture.

To wit, ignore all the garbage about litigation. That is the absolute LAST thing you want to do. Before you let this lady drag you to court, GIVE her the photos for free. I doubt she would do it, but what you have on your hands is a customer service issue, not a legal one. Keep it in the realm of customer service.

All this to say, if you set your sights on this one assignment and insist upon asserting what you know to be 'true and right' you may very well cost yourself future clientele. It is pretty much a customer service fact that a totally dissatisfied customer will do more damage to your business than a dozen satisfied ones will do good.

This goes cross-grain with a lot of the advice here, but...

I would apologize. Do not assert your authority as an artist or anything else. Apologize. Then, when the customer has settled down, ask her what, at this point, can be done to make the best of the situation.

The old adage "The customer is always right" applies here. If you are a wise businessman, your goal here should be to alleviate this woman's disappointment at any cost. Give her the images for free if need be. Make her happy.

Five years from now your business will be better off for it.

--

'Hmmm, I wonder what deep thought might convince these guys I am some kind of artist...'
http://www.jimroofcreative.com

Hi

Had a brief look at the gallery and feel that the saying less is more applies here. If you want to show as many pics as possible then lead with those that you think are strongest, 550 photos are a lot to trawl through so you want to make a positive first impression.

Personally I think 7424 is a very unflattering portrait and would not have included it. As an amateur I want a professional to take pictures that I could not and unfortunately I'm more than capable of taking a bad portrait.

Good luck sorting it out with the bride's mother.

Michael

dissatisfied customer will do

jimcreative said:

more damage to your business than a dozen satisfied ones will do
good.

Click to expand...

Depends on the town in which you live? I often wonder about that. Our
town average age must be over 50 with not so many young people at all.
Most clients come from out of town and there really is few local wedding
clients. Question then is, "what is someone living 100 miles away going
to do to affect your business?" Not much. This summer we didn't have
any local wedding clients, so not much chance that any of them really
help or could ever hurt business. Even referrals are low from these out
of town clients unless one friend happens to like the pictures and the location
and book with us.

jimcreative said:

This goes cross-grain with a lot of the advice here, but...

I would apologize. Do not assert your authority as an artist or
anything else. Apologize. Then, when the customer has settled
down, ask her what, at this point, can be done to make the best of
the situation.

Click to expand...

I disagree with an apology. Even the tone of one. Why, because you should have

covered your style and all the details before the wedding. That includes taking the

MOB or family there at your request. If they don't follow your procedure and state

their willingness to work things out, then there is no apology needed on your part.
Apology will dig you in deeper as they smell default on your part.

jimcreative said:

The old adage "The customer is always right" applies here.

Click to expand...

No, often they are very wrong. She wanted certain pictures, then she was
responsible for gathering the people and location. We tell clients over and over

to do that or we shall/will miss those pictures. You want a special picture, then
set aside time and make sure you get it. If not, client is wrong and I will

fee free to tell them the schedule was too strict or off to allow what they wanted.

If you

jimcreative said:

are a wise businessman, your goal here should be to alleviate this
woman's disappointment at any cost. Give her the images for free
if need be. Make her happy.

Click to expand...

Not at the point of holding your ground. Take a look at MOB pictures. She is

recognized 'spoiled' type of person and it shows in the pictures and her attitude in

the latter backs that up. I'm not sure that is much to can do other than get in contact

with the couple and see what they have to say, but I would even do that unless they
make the first move and/or MOB really starts to up the decibel level.

jimcreative said:

Five years from now your business will be better off for it.

Click to expand...

It wouldn't in my town. As I said, almost all weddings are from clients that live
far away and have no influence on business.

If I had taken the images that I saw on your website it would be clear that the woman has no legal leg to stand on. You did a fine job.

I recommend that you post the formals at the front of all future client online photo albums. This will eliminate the baseless accusation that you took took too few formal shots. I thought they were more than ample in quantity (and quality). There are only so many poses that one can take in formal shots that are posed and so many more opportunities to take more candid images because there are so many more candid opportunities.

Lastly the woman is unhappy with her appearance, period. It's not you or anything you failed to do. If I had her face I'd be unhappy too. Absent you just not taking her picture the only other thing I could recommend is a light guasian blur to her face to soften the rather frightening reality of her discontent. Really nothing you can do here but listen to her ventilate.

Because she's just an unhappy personality and possesses poor conflict resolution skills the only way she feels she can deal with you is by threatening you with a civil complaint. She's acting from a position of weakness imho.

I would do what you normally do in all other wedding shoots and no more or less. Give her the prints she wants or the those you owe her and be done with it. Don't allow her to suck you into her irrational world and confusion that undoubtedly hoovers over her at all time.

Kind regards,

Tony B.

Delbert McClinton

This is strictly my feelings on this. YMMV.

I don't profess to know the real cause of her dissatisfaction, but I think this could be the spark.

A sharp lens has it's place, too sharp and you get a nasty photo of MOB. She loved the sun for many years and now it's caught up her.

I had a beatiful shot of M/FOB with the newlyweds dancing. It was perfect... except for one thing. MOB loved the sun too much also. Showing that photo without a lot of PS would have been disastrous! After PS they loved it. No talk of "You took out most of the sun damage from my face!". No, simply they loved it.

Here's a quick hack (I WILL remove later) of how she sees herself verses the sharp lens.

A little Gaussian blur, bring back select parts, reduce wrinkles and liguidfy/reduce were back/skin/dress meets.

Two picts. The one she expected and the one she got.





--
Jim

I looked at these photos twice and can see how someone could find fault with them .. the ones shot in the photojournalistic style seem to lack that spark of emotion that makes that style of shot come to life and there are really no formal posed shots that really look like formal posed shots.

They just seem to lack a professional quality, sorry.

I think you have probably been around here long enough to witness me dress someone down for their bad advice and in this forum I will be among the first to tell someone I think they are wrong.

However, the adage that "The customer is always right" does not mean they are, in fact, always right. What it means is the customer should always be treated as if they are right.

If the OP wants to prosper in the field of photography, or in any other field that requires interpersonal skills as an integral part of the business process, he should adopt this quaint notion as gospel truth.

If the client is not happy with his work, regardless of the reasons why, he will further his business by swallowing his pride and making the situation as 'right' as possible.

If, as you suggest, he should stick to his guns and explain to this client why he is right (while tacitly implying that the customer is WRONG), it will almost assuredly come back to haunt him.

This is simply a matter of maturity and working along some very basic precepts of human behavior.

Ignore me and my advice if you wish. It only makes me look that much better.

See... I can tell someone they are wrong. I just won't tell a customer that they're wrong.

; )

--

'Hmmm, I wonder what deep thought might convince these guys I am some kind of artist...'
http://www.jimroofcreative.com